Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Jono Nicholas (Part 1)

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how senior business leaders face change – the good, the bad and everything in between, because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Janelle: Hi. My name is Janelle McMaster and I’m the Managing Partner of Markets at EY Oceania. I’ve spent my whole career fixated on people. Why do they do what they do? How do they respond to change? What experiences led them to respond to change the way that the do? And how do they help others through change? The reality is that change happens and it’s how we deal with it that makes the difference. This podcast is a conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons that they’ve learned along the way. Well today’s conversation is with Jono Nicholas. Let’s hear a little bit more about Jono.

Jono: Nicholas established some ground breaking work in his more than 20 years at ReachOut, Australia’s leading online mental health organisation for young people and their parents, including almost 10 years as CEO. Jono is now Managing Director and founder of the Wellbeing Outfit, helping organisations improve their performance by improvising the mental health and wellbeing of their people. One thing is clear, he is passionate about mental health. Let’s see how change happens for Jono Nicholas.

Janelle: When we first set out to record these conversations on change with inspiring leaders, we had no idea that we would be thrown into a whole world of change, as we move through the COVID-19 pandemic around the globe. With social distancing now the new norm we moved our conversations from the EY podcast studio to connecting with each other from our own homes. I had already recorded an insightful and highly relevant podcast with Jono before all of this took place, which will follow this podcast. With Jono currently consulting into EY’s senior leadership team through this time, I’ve had the privilege of witnessing his incredible clarity and forward thinking through the guidance that he has offered us. I asked Jono back to share with me his latest thoughts and recommendations on navigating the environment we now all find ourselves in. Keep and ear out for the original interview which, like this one, is jam-packed with incredible insights and experiences and well worth listening to. But for now, here’s Jono focussing specifically on our COVID-19 world. Jono, thanks for joining me again.

Jono: Thank you very much.

Janelle: How are you?

Jono: I would say I’m surviving, not thriving at the moment and like everybody trying to manage myself and my wife in a house trying to managing multiple meetings with kids who are stressed, home schooling and just trying to provide some routine and stability in an environment which is anything other than routine and stable.

Janelle: Nothing but fluid and dynamic, hey? Jono, since we recorded our original podcast things have moved even harder and even faster than we knew them to be moving before. A lot of what we talked about in that discussion is much sharper for us all now. So recognising that I wanted to ask you a few more pointed questions, thinking specifically now about the situation that we all find ourselves in. It can feel overwhelming with daily information, the constant changes in restrictions, the fear around getting COVID-19, what will happen if I do, what happens to my friends or my family if they do, feelings of isolation for those who are alone. You know, there are seven stages of grief that we’re all going through in different levels. How do we work through this personally as leaders while still maintaining the consideration of our teams so that they have what they need to make it through?

Jono: Well I think the first part to realise is the world is gripped by a state of fear at the moment. This is the first time in history where literally billions of people are afraid at the same time and we as leaders are not immune to that. So I think the first part as leaders we have to acknowledge that we’re stressed, we’re afraid, we’re worried for our family, we’re also worried for the people we serve and lead and give ourselves a break and being able to manage that. I think at a leadership level it starts with us and our team – how do we support each other as we navigate those decisions and knowing that we can then be strong as we can be that we then can lead our organisations through that change. The second part as you said – and you quite rightly talk about this in relation to death – what we are currently in is really the change phase. What we’re experiencing is the death of everything that we’ve known to be true. We go to work, our kids go to school, we’re able to access supermarkets and we are coping with that real sudden change and we’re running around trying to keep everything together. My guess is that that change phase will last for most people really about kind of four to eight weeks from the time that they really started working from home as an anchor point. We will then move into really the reality phase where a lot of frustration and anger is likely to set in as we realise that this isn’t a short-term thing but this is going to be our new reality. And then the third phase that we will experience, because COVID-19 is a pandemic that will end, is the recovery and renewal phase. And what as leaders we need to navigate for ourselves and our people, how do we help them through each of those knowing that they’ll experience different feelings and different emotions.

Janelle: It’s really helpful to think about those phases and to help ourselves prepare for that. I know that when you’ve spoken in the past around that change phase you talk about a high energy that can exist in that time because we’re all busy sort of setting up new structures and figuring how to make the new systems and the technology work and how we’re going to manage our kids. So that can kind of almost feel like, a false high is probably not the right word, but a distraction of sorts. Then it will become our norm and I guess that would be the driver behind kicking into that sort of the next stage of realisation that this is going to continue for a while.

Jono: Absolutely. So what we see if this is a death that, you know, after a sudden loss of someone we love very dearly, then there’s that same level of energy and activity as we organise the funeral, as we negotiate between family members who’s going to do what and all those things actually lead to some friction, but also quite a lot of cooperation amongst people. Businesses are going through that same phase now. The ceremony will really, I think, come for an Australian context probably around Anzac Day is always a reflective time in Australia. Post that time what I would expect people to be experiencing is a real flat spot – this sense that the world is like this and it’s hard. And it’s at that point that businesses and leaders really need to prepare to support their people through a phase that could last many, many months before we have the excitement and optimism that will come with the recovery. And businesses that do that phase really well, that prepare for their people to manage that energy really well I think will come out the other side incredibly cohesive and strong and ready to renew the activity that will happen probably towards the end of 2020.

Janelle: Mm, and when you say businesses that do that well you mean sort of really driving resilience, training, wellbeing programmes? Is that the kind of thing that you think about when we hit that next sort of stage?

Jono: Yeah. So in the change phase you know what I would recommend to leaders is set up your structures, set up a macro-communication structure that enables the key leader in your business, your CEO or managing director to talk to you people consistently and provide security. Everyone in the change phase needs to know at a practical level what am I doing and how am I safe. Then once we’re into that cadence we should really start the extra support for people who are going to start feeling quite lonely, quite disconnected from other people and - but are also going to be more in a routine. So businesses really need to probably hold off during the change phase on adding a lot of programmes, adding a lot of extra support and being very responsive. Once we hit that more stable phase when the reality sets in that’s the point where you really want to wrap your arms around people and give them extra supports and training to be able to manage the reality. And different businesses will go through that phase at different times and if they don’t manage that phase well what they could find is that their people are very resentful, very angry and take out their frustrations on the leaders rather than the world around them.

Janelle: So we know that many companies and businesses have had to deal with moving their people to, you know, work from home or have had to reduce wages. Some have had to close for the foreseeable future, so it’s a lot to deal with as you say as a leader let alone the people themselves in the teams. You talked about a few ideas there. What are some of the other key things that business leaders need to consider going through this and still staying connected to their purpose?

Jono: Yeah, I think the first part that leaders need to focus on is communication. That if your people are distributed by geography and working from home then the email and the message that your leaders send out to you and how that is structured becomes incredibly important in keeping people connected. So don’t underestimate that. Build into that communication the humanity of it. For you I think leaders who will do very well during this period will show strength but not present invulnerability. Leaders, we want our leaders to be strong and clear. We don’t want them to be invulnerable and so sharing your own challenges and progress will be a way in which you can connect with your people in a much deeper way. I think the second part will be being very realistic with your people about the progression and looking probably no more in the early stages of this than two to four weeks ahead, saying this is what’s happened. COVID-19 is getting worse therefore we’re asking people to work from home for the next month. This decision will be reviewed in two weeks and I’ll let you know. The more regular we can be in providing those assurances the more safe people will feel and really see that their business and their organisation is the tribe that they can rely on.

Janelle: And Jono, you’ve been working really closely with us at EY. We’ve certainly included you into our most senior meetings. I know that we have highly valued the advice that you’ve given us. I wonder - and I think a number of organisations would be really interested to hear how you’re working with our team and the kinds of advice you’re giving and what your own observations are in working that way with us.

Jono: Yeah, I think the wonderful thing about the leadership of EY has been they’ve been very humble to say we do need extra support, that this is not business as usual and our experience that has got us to be leaders of this business is not necessarily going to lend the answers in this situation. The world is in a stress crisis and businesses are trying to make very difficult decisions in that situation. So that for me has been really gratifying. I think a lot of businesses, if they’re not already, should be seeking that support and strategy support from someone who can help guide them through the psychology of this as much as the business reality of this. And then the second part is putting those plans into action and doing it in a really regular way. And EY is a difficult organisation in the large number of people but also matrix. So I think recognising that complexity and moving people quickly through those decisions as this pandemic takes hold at lightning speed will mean we have to help manage the anxieties that people will experience during the different stages.

Janelle: Well we’ve certainly been incredibly grateful for the insights and the counsel you’ve been giving us along the way. So what are some of the key things that you’ve noticed in how the world is dealing with this? You know, the good, the bad, anything in between?

Jono: So, I think the first thing that I’ve realised is how ill prepared the world is to move at this speed. If you look at that our government structures, so Australia for example is a federated country, a simple decision like should be close a beach involves the Prime Minister setting some broad guidelines, the Premiers interpreting those guidelines and the local councils enforcing those. And so in each one of those steps we have an opportunity for confusion when we’re moving at speed and we’re certainly seeing that right now. That that confusion is not helping people’s anxiety. We’re also seeing that people are reacting under extreme stress and either sort of going into denial and saying this isn’t happening, it’s not serious, sort of why is everyone overreacting? Or moving into extreme crisis mode and hoarding toilet paper and not really caring for their neighbours as much as we should. So that’s my, yeah, my experience is we’ve got confusion as Government tries to move at a speed that it’s not capable of moving and then people reacting in the context of that confusion to look after themselves. The next phase I think will be the really important one, which is that we have to highlight the community aspects of this. We have to highlight that we do care for each other. And probably the biggest concern that I have is a lot of the language like social isolation, isolation, social distancing, actually goes against our nature when we’re afraid, which is to cluster and stay close to people. And so what you’re asking people to do is go against their most basic natures, which is when they’re afraid they gather with those that they love and they can’t do that. And so as we move into that I think organisations can play a really unique role in providing a sense of daily connectedness that create the community that we’re going to actually be lacking elsewhere as we, you know, don’t go to shopping centres, we don’t go to the beach and we don’t go everywhere else, sporting clubs, where we would normally get that community. So I think there’s actually a wonderful opportunity for organisations to give back on their social compact, not only financially, but at the deepest level which is provide regular points of connectedness amongst people that allow us to form communities in different ways as other forms of communities are prevented – we’re prevented from accessing them. 

Janelle: Mm, such a good point you make there about this going against the grain of kind of how we would normally operate. I guess the other side of it is, this is probably the greatest, most trying shared experience that we have in our country, in the globe. So how we galvanise around the shared experience, even if it’s not physically and we do that virtually and find creative ways to do that, it is a critical way to be dealing with this shared crisis.

Jono: Absolutely. I think you’re - and we also have to see some amazing opportunities that if you talk to people last year one of their greatest regrets for most people who work really hard is not spending enough time with their kids. Well that won’t be a problem now. Most people are, you know, are limited in the amount of activity they’re doing. I think when I go for runs with my kids at the end of each day mostly it’s people walking together as families. So if we actually step back at this and say while we are denied some things we are also enabled other opportunities. And, again, I think this is one of the ways in which should frame it. That rather than seeing our children as getting in the way of our work or our partner at the same kitchen table getting in the way of our work, that this is an opportunity to share our experiences with those that we most love and try and come to new compromises. And if we see that as an opportunity I think rather than as a curbing then you could find connectedness increase.

Janelle: Totally.

Jono: And certainly for our kids I think that this is actually a wonderful opportunity. I’m not at all concerned for my kids about not accessing school for a few months. I think I’m looking at it very much that they’re seeing their parents try their best to stay connected and well and love them over a time period that is unique in their life. We’ve got to try and frame those things in a positive way to help ourselves and help the community.

Janelle: No, I totally agree with you and I think it’s been interesting over the weekend, my kids and my husband and I are sort of figuring out how we’re going to spend our time, something – a lot of colouring in has taken place over the weekend! But, you know, almost some sort of control with the kids. So that stuff that we wouldn’t normally do because we’re running around doing, you know, sport drop-offs and pick-ups, so it’s been quite – there’s been something almost empowering for them as we sort of figure out how we’re going to use this uninterrupted time that we have together. 

Jono: Yeah, absolutely. And business I think and organisations can foster that. And, again, if you think that organisations now will be the one form of regular community that people have outside their family and their home, how businesses interact as these worlds have now bled completely into each other, our personal life and our work life now has even physically bled into each other, that if they do that really well I think what they’ll find is that their people are even bound more strongly to the purpose of the organisation and the values of the organisation because they’ll experience on a daily basis. If organisations themselves don’t adapt to this new reality and keep trying to make the world as it was and ensure meeting always happen at the same time and all those sort of things and not be flexible I think what they’ll find is their people could, rather than be grateful for the job, be resentful that things aren’t working.

Janelle: Jono, who have you been impressed with in terms of how they’re dealing with the mental health side of this pandemic? So thinking about leaders or companies or charities or individuals who have stood out. Who have they been and why?

Jono: Yeah, Janelle, I think we spoke earlier on about my work with EY. I’ve been incredibly impressed by Tony Johnson and yourself and others, leaders of EY, from the point of view of humility. Very quickly Tony and Kate Hillman recognised that this was not business as usual. The sought advice and they acted on that advice really quickly and they recognised this as a mental health issue, not just as a business issue. And, you know, so that has made, to be honest, my role at EY incredibly easy and incredibly rewarding. In a public sense, I’ve been most impressed by Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand. I think she has communicated to New Zealanders very clearly and simply as to why they are doing what they are doing, the actions that have then being taken and has simplified those actions to an extent that we probably haven’t done as well in Australia. And if you think about communicating to people in crisis who are stressed, their brain cannot cope with complex information and you need to make it clear and you need to make it concrete and you need to explain why. When you do that people get onboard. So I think in terms of world leaders she’s done incredibly well of even just posting up that video message after she put her kid to bed that she immediately told everyone that she has complex worlds as well. That she wasn’t just a politician standing in her office, that she was also a mum dealing with the complexity of how to balance the world. And people just respond to the humanity of that. So I think, you know – 

Janelle: Well, I think it brings real credibility when you say the words “we’re in this together”, that’s exactly what it feels like when she – when you can see her like that in that form.

Jono: Absolutely. And every parent that I know has said that, you know, that’s what they’re struggling with, going back to work as they’re trying to manage things after putting the kids to bed. You know so it immediately put her with the “us” in a way that it wasn’t there before.

Janelle: I can’t even sort of get my head around the world as it was, it feels such lifetimes ago. I expect this is really going to create new normal for us. What do you think will change and on a more permanent basis? What are the shifts that we’re likely to see permanently, whether it’s business, government, community?

Jono: My conversation with leaders has essentially said that – or centred around the idea that this is a “phoenix” strategy for organisations - that organisations that will thrive at the back end of COVID-19 are the ones that don’t grieve for the business model that we’ve lost but instead embrace the reality that we find ourselves and the opportunities that are there. And they will certainly be hardened through this phase. Their leadership team will be hardened. The - many of those businesses you said will have lost staff or lost clients through this phase and so they have to come back - as we think about the phoenix - come back to who are you really there? Come back to why you exist as a business, what do you most value, what do your clients most value and then recreate a business model. So I think the great opportunity for business leaders of established businesses will be almost to think actually this is the one time where we perhaps get to think like a start-up again but we get all the advantages of a 100 plus or 50 plus years of business and a brand strength and all the other advantages of incumbency, but also can shed some of the disadvantages that come with that incumbency. So I think great leaders will be able to manage this change phase well, will really hold the organisation together through that stable phase over the next few months as they harden, but also plan for the renewal phase. And that renewal in the phoenix strategy shouldn’t look like the world that was lost. So for me that would actually mean as you move into that renewal phase that it actually could be quite an exciting time for leaders and organisations as they’ve really faced up to some of the truths that perhaps they wanted to avoid. You know, can people work from home successfully? Well, we’ll have the answer for that. You know, can we move quickly and in an agile way? Well, we’ve answered that. We can move a lot in two weeks. So a lot of the things that have held businesses back from change could actually have been answered. If they are then optimistic about not trying to grab the world as it was but see the world as it could be.

Janelle: Thank you Jono. I think that’s been super useful. I think, you know, this conversation for me has really given us some real pointers around, if you think about it as now, next and beyond timeframe, now in dealing with the crisis, acknowledging our own stress, next thinking about the resilience that we’re going to need to develop and draw deep on as we sort of adjust to pass this change phase, and then the beyond thinking about that phoenix strategy that you talk about, not grieving for the business that was but embracing what this has taught us about what’s required moving forward. Thanks Jono.

Jono: Thanks Janelle.

The Change Happens podcast from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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