Podcast transcript: How Asia-Pacific banks can build a future-ready workforce

Andrew Gilder

Welcome to the EY NextWave Banking in Asia-Pacific Podcast. I’m Andrew Gilder, your host, and EY Asia-Pacific Banking & Capital Markets Sector Leader. In this series, we will feature insights and analysis on topics impacting the Asia-Pacific banking sector as it reinvents itself to be leaner, more agile, and customer-centric than ever. The C-suite, in particular, the Chief People Officer or Chief Human Resources Officer, are faced with changing generations in the workplace, expansion of technology and digital collaboration tools, the increasing importance of environmental, social and governance (ESG) and diversity, equity and inclusion (DE&I), as well as an increasing skill shortage coupled with inflation and recessionary risks.

Gilder

In this episode, we explore why and how banks in Asia-Pacific should be considering a human-centric approach to building a future-ready workforce with a culture that supports continuous growth and evolution. My special guests today are seated here with me in the EY Singapore office. First, Lee Hwee Boon, Head of Group Human Resources at OCBC Bank; and Soumee De, Partner, People Advisory Services at EY. Hello, Hwee Boon and Soumee. Thank you for joining me here today.

Lee Hwee Boon

Thank you for having me, Andrew.

Soumee De

And hello to our listeners. I'm really excited and looking forward to this conversation.

Gilder

Well, let's get stuck into it then. In the last few years, work has been reimagined by employees and employers, but their visions don't necessarily always align. For example, in the latest EY Work Reimagined Survey, which was done in 2022, both sides see flexibility and hybrid work as the new normal. However, if you dig into the details a little bit further, it does reveal some divisions. The COVID-19 pandemic, rising inflation, the great resignation in 2021-22, and calls for commitment and action on ESG issues are further reshaping this workforce terrain. In the financial services sector, the younger generations are perhaps more inclined to start their careers in FfinTtechs or neo banks, or even big tech companies. My kids certainly have told me that they don't want to either be accountants or bankers. So, my first question to both of you is how should banks in Asia-Pacific be reimagining the future of work, as well as the bank employee value proposition in order to compete for talent acquisition, and of course, subsequently, talent retention? We start with you, Hwee Boon.

Boon

So Andrew, I like to offer your kids an internship with OCBC. We hope to change their views of not wanting to be bankers. When we think about future of work, I think about it in three areas. The first area being workforce; second area being workplace; and the third area being nature of work. So, if we think about the workforce, you will see that the broad demographic trends are changing — the trends of an aging population. So, I think increasingly, we have to start to think about how we can think about jobs and roles differently. And with the volatility and uncertainty we're seeing in the workplace, we expect that roles that we will not foresee now or we don't expect to understand now will become more and more prevalent in future.

Boon

So, we are working toward a skills workplace unlike the past, where tenure and domain expertise is important. And we think about the workplace, leveraging skills, leveraging data and AI to inform decision-making is becoming increasingly important. It's no longer just focus on process but it's also looking at insights and analytics to drive a lot of the planning and looking forward into the future. And then finally, when you think about work, I think these days, particularly the Gen Zs, they think about not just a career, they think about experiences, and they think about taking on purpose-led work. So, for us, when I think about how we should position our employee value proposition, we think along these three lines.

Gilder

And Soumee, anything to add?

De

I must go back to the days when we started this campaign early this year. Do my kids really want to work in the bank? And I asked my two young kids, do they want to work in a bank? The answer was, “it depends”. So, there was a “maybe”, there's no guarantee. And what I see are a couple of research insights that have come out. The work reimagined survey in '22 talked about 46% of our employees in the banking and capital markets, who are ready to say that we intend to leave in the next 12 months. So, any inaction toward some of those drivers are going to lead to that “maybe” shifting toward the “no.”. So, what can we do today? And there were quite a few insightful suggestions from my boys and one of them was clearly the diversity and inclusion. So, I'm really glad you have a women-in-banking panel today, Andrew, it reflects that this is not just for the same gender, the same race, or the same kind of people. There is space for diversity of thought. So, that seems to be one.

De

The other pieces are learning everywhere. They're really excited when they move and they see OCBC campus. It comes to them as learning is everywhere. It's a place where I can go and just like I can snack anything, I can play a game, and I can do and learn and learn and do. So, learning everywhere is pretty important to them. The other piece is the employee experiences and a sense of belonging. Is this a fun place? Do you get excited to work there? So, how do you bring up that sense of belonging? The last part is purpose-led. You did talk about the societal value, what good we do. And that actually does a lot, whether it's on the ESG side of things, the ESG investments that are shaping the environment, climate change agenda, but how do we put that in front of our Gen Zs in the future generation? It's something that if you do better, the “maybe” will turn to a “yes”.

Gilder

Maybe I should get you to talk to my kids. Let's turn to something I like to incorporate into all of these discussions, which is customer experience, because I think in banking, as in other sectors as well, customer experience is constantly changing. So, in order for banks to thrive in an environment of those evolving customer expectations with an expanding set of technologies and business model change and so forth, the banking workforce also needs to learn and adapt new skills. So, what do you think are those skills of today and tomorrow that banks have not traditionally had? And what is the strategy to kind of acquire or develop those skills and capabilities? Maybe Soumee, do you want to start on this one?

De

Sure. We once spoke about skills-led workforce transformation, and that's the skills that are the new fuel. And when we look at EY Skills Foundry, for example, as one of the platforms that we are designing and developing, and it's got three parts to it. The first part is all about mapping the skills blueprint. Today, we know how many people we have in different roles, but we don't always know what skill sets they have. And that's the starting of our journey. How do we map skill sets, not just job families and job architecture? The second part to the map is really developing those skill sets of the future — the hot skills — and whether it's the digital mindset, the digital skill sets, the adaptable mindset, as well as sustainability skills, green skills. Different types of skills, which are important for the future, that's the developed track. And the last track is really about mobility. So, how do we track and ensure that the career is not one vertical track, but it's a career jungle, and people are able to develop skills as they move from one place to another? So, the talent marketplace is the third piece of that map, develop, move. So, three parts to that strategy, but we are trying to get there. Today, most of these three functions happen in a very role-specific way and we are trying to drive more toward the skills.

Gilder

And Hwee Boon, how does OCBC think about that skills transformation, particularly in Singapore in the ASEAN region, which is a very dynamic environment?

Boon

Really to pick on the point that Soumee has made earlier, I think that the shift toward a skills-based learning and really thinking about what are the roles of the future is really important. So, I think when we reflect on how our training and our learning have changed over the course of the past few years, we've started to shift from a focus on really sort of core technical competencies to really talking about skills-based competencies. So, skills like learning agility, skills like data literacy, and managing ambiguity — these are becoming increasingly important. So, what we have done since 2018 was to put together what we call a Future Smart Program, where we start to put equal emphasis on learning these skills, alongside the hard or soft technical skills.

Boon

We've committed about 50 million and we've put together 10,000 programs along pillars of customer centricity, managing the future of work, and data literacy — learning about data and understanding data — so that more and more of our people start to pick up these skills alongside the hard skills in this era of what I call the T-shaped skills. And what we have seen is we're seeing close to more than 500,000, completions since 2018. From my perspective, a very encouraging and impressive set of completions of our 10,000 programs. And then when we start to think about okay, then how would we design these programs since they are not really core technical programs? In our learning blueprint, we focus on four design principles. Principles that talk about the community, learning as a community — that talk about our OCBC campus as a way or just as a representation of learning sciences and different learning methods, not necessarily housing a physical campus.

Boon

We think about learning and being empowered anchored by leadership that's not just about being leaders being positive examples, but also as an individual —- how we are self-empowered to learn. And finally, learning should be available by default. It is not policed. It should not be enforced. So, that's how we think about learning in general. But I think in the cost of it, we've also started to rethink internships. And that's why I invited your kids to sign up because we think about internships last as watching, and modeling. We think about really experiencing, and that's starting to pivot internships to what I call an apprenticeship. We've already rolled that out with our FRANKpreneurship, we've just rolled out a one-year tech internship with one of the neon polytechnics. It's got amazing responses because the experience to really build something even while doing an internship is amazing and it's really bonded the team. Not just the leadership team around the interns, but also the interns themselves - they found meaning and purpose to what they're doing in the course that they entered.

Boon

And finally, I would say that in thinking about a different operating environment, I think what we also would like to do is to build the sector, the community, and the industry that's for the Singapore workforce. We believe that if we put, we start to change through these internships and apprenticeships, start to change the nature of how our undergrads are involved in the changing and the evolution of work, we will start to build at a much earlier stage a pipeline of people and talent that are equipped to handle — what I would say — an increasingly volatile uncertain world.

Gilder

Yeah, it sounds like really engaging the juniors in the development and the evolution. And in your response, you mentioned leadership a couple of times. So, let's turn to that because I think that's an important element of this. And you also mentioned purpose earlier on, which is also driven from the leadership. So, how can banks reimagine their leadership, the people and the culture, to future-proof talent and the transformation efforts for, say, the next 10 years versus that traditional approach that we've taken over the last 10 years in banking?

Boon

I think one of the ways to do that, and we have been increasingly focusing on it is really about mobility. So, how can we think about career pathways in a very different way, similar to what Soumee mentioned? It's really not just a vertical progression, but really start to move people into roles that are adjacent to the existing areas, so that we give people an opportunity to connect the dots. If you think about the disruptions that we see in banking today, a lot of the disruptors are able to make a dent only because they have been operating at the adjacent areas and re-interpreted the skills or the value by trying to move the adjacent areas and connecting it with the core. So, maybe let me give you an experience. We think about we are a banking institution, but we are also very focused on tech and experience. And we think if we bring all this together for an employee, what would that mean?

Boon

And so, what we did was we put together an app for employees so that the employees have an ability to use the app to transact, whether that's to look at the leave balance, to look at the schedule, to book a meeting room. And we found that this is really by operating and looking at tech that we have brought to our customers and then harnessing that to connect the dots and bring a different employee experience for us and for our people. And I thought that really is very important. Mobility is one, but it's also about connecting the dots, and then harnessing that to bring value to the bigger group.

Boon

And the second big group I'll think about really is that about really prioritizing wellbeing. I'm very, very pleased and proud to say that OCBC was recently named the winner of the Wellbeing Innovation Award by Workwell Leaders. And that's really because we think that really taking care of employees and really looking after them, it's no longer about your straightforward benefits. It's really thinking about the total and entire wellbeing. And it's not just about themselves, it's also about how they interact with colleagues. So, I would say a social wellbeing, the psychological wellbeing, the ability to speak up, the financial wellbeing, and also the wellbeing with the family. And so, if we bring all this together, really being able to prioritize wellbeing alongside all the other things about mobility and about connecting the dots, I believe that really, it's what I think it's important to future-proof our workforce.

Gilder

And Soumee, do you want to just a couple of comments on leadership? I understand EY has done some research in this area. It talks about some six leadership drivers.

De

Thanks, Andrew. What Hwee Boon was saying is really bringing to life those six drivers but I'm going to spend a bit of time on just those six. We did a research with the University of Oxford Saïd Business School in 2021, and two- thirds of those we surveyed, they said that there was at least one underperforming transformation that they experienced. So, why do these things go wrong? And the six drivers based on predictive analytics, we realized if you focus on these, the successful outcome will be 2.6 times higher. What are those? The six drivers are inspire. It's all about the purposeful vision starting with the why. Why are we moving the needle? What is it for? The second one is all about leading — the adaptable leader, who emphasizes the “we” not the “me”. Care. You talked a lot about the care — the psychological safety, the listening with empathy, and being holistically involved in their wellbeing, that's beautiful.

De

The fourth one is all about the empowerment. They’ve disciplined freedom to experiment and have a mindset of fail fast. Fifth is, of course, collaborate —- but that comes with radical interdependence, and co-creating those new ways of working. And finally build, which is all about purposeful tech to foster that digital mindset and skill set. And you talked about the app, it's all about that empowerment and building in a very purposeful way and bringing technology to that intersection.

Gilder

So far, we've talked about reimagining work, leadership and upskilling but a lot of this will result or will require a bit of an HR transformation journey. And our experience with transformation is that it's not easy to achieve and it doesn't always go smoothly. So, Hwee Boon, can I turn to you and spotlight on your experience so far to share a little bit about your HR transformation journey at OCBC that you've been through in the last couple of years? And what have you learned from that? What are your key challenges that you've experienced and the learnings that you've taken from that?

Boon

So to be honest, I think OCBC has only started their transformation journey two years back. So, we are very early days in this transformation effort. We spent a good part in the beginning trying to think about what is our “North Star,”, what is the underlying purpose, and what is the motivation and the problem and the pain points to monitor through this transformation. So, we've gotten maybe into the first leg of this transformation. So, we are starting to be making recommendations and thinking about what the possibility of looking at a different operating model could be. But I think what has been quite evident to me is that transformation is really fraught with challenges, and that the people that are impacted feel a strong sense of uncertainty, even if they were in the first place the ones that were really, really motivated and they really felt that this was the right way to go.

Boon

But in the process, I think people are uncertain, people do feel afraid of what the change could be and how it will impact them. So, what we have tried to do is to really open up the communications around this change. We've really put more information out there. Every step of the way, we try and communicate. From my perspective, more is better than less, and we just consistently start to put information on what we are thinking about, what the potential transitions are and what considerations around the change are, so that people trust the intent of that change. And in doing so, in putting more information, we also try to engender the trust and the faith that whatever the outcome may be, the interest will be looked after, and that transition will be one that they feel that they can cope with.

Boon

But having said that, one of the insights that came to me in the course of this transformation journey has also been that, while we can think about, in an ideal way, how the operating model could look like, how the technology and the solution to enable the operating model could look like, I think that the best or ideal model is really one that reflects the maturity of the organization, and one that reflects the existing skill sets and competencies of the people. I think there is really very little point for us to make a giant leap to an ideal state when the organization itself is not prepared. So, I think we are starting to work out okay. What is the intermediate step that will allow us to get to where we want to be eventually? But if we can be pragmatic and realistic about the steps to allow us to start to make that transition and progression there, I think that will really start to make our transition efforts successful and sustainable.

Gilder

Let's shift the conversation toward employee experience. And you've already touched on a lot of this actually talking about the OCBC campus and the app that you've developed, and really sounds like you're making some good strides on employee experience. But there's another element that we want to dive into, which is around diversity, equity, and inclusion or DE&I as it's often referred to. I guess, most large banks, yourself included, employ thousands of people across the region —- particularly this region is very diverse. And that group of people bring diverse perspectives, experience, knowledge, and also resources. So, I'm interested to learn from both of you on how banks should be thinking about creating and maintaining that culture of diversity and inclusiveness. Perhaps to continue on the momentum from your last response, Hwee Boon, can we hear from you first on how DE&I can help influence the employer brand? And in your case of OCBC, how does DE&I impact the ability or effectiveness of your execution? So, what does it actually bring in terms of execution, not just it's the right thing to do but it's also got benefits in doing it?

Boon

When we think about DE&I, we don't think about it separately as initiatives that we do. In fact, I will say that DE&I, our inclusion is very much worked into OCBC's purpose. Our purpose is to help individuals and businesses across communities achieve their aspirations by offering them innovative financial services that meet their needs. So, if in our very purpose of who OCBC are, DE&I is already embedded, and it's also then reflected in our strategy. We are a bank, and so I think you're absolutely right. We are in a privileged position. We have access to resources. We're in a position that we understand what inclusion is all about. And when we think about inclusion, well, inclusion has, for us, financial inclusion, and this is in the communities that we work in.

Boon

I always think about inclusion. We think about how we can start to bring people without access to financial services into the system. And we've done that with our … all the work that we're doing on digital adoption on rolling out and harnessing digital banking services in order to allow people who had in the past not being able to access them, because in the past, provision of banking services was location-based. If you are not having a branch there, you cannot access banking services. So, with digital services, we have been able to bring financial inclusion to a much bigger group. We do that not just for individuals, but also for businesses. And not just in Singapore, but also in our key markets like Indonesia, where inclusion is definitely a much bigger area or subject than in Singapore.

Boon

And we think about inclusion also in a slightly different way. How can we give skills and tools, and awareness to our young, so that we start to build them with financial literacy at a young age? And we give them a way to understand what financial planning, financial awareness is at a very young age. So, we conduct programs involving children. Where we start, our volunteers will go and learn or teach them through play —- through exercises that will allow them to understand the importance of financial planning. So, I think that's how we think about DE&I for us. But of course, it's not just about interacting with the community in such a way, we also think about how we can bring inclusion to our workforce. We are already starting to work —- planning to work with gig workers - so that we start to think about our workforce in a different way.

Boon

How? Through job share we can start to bring more and more people, who had in the past being unable to hold a full-time job due to family commitments and bring them into our workplace by thinking and reimagining roles in a different way. How can we share roles? How can we start to build roles into the basic building blocks? And those that can be done without having to be physically in the office and those can be done remotely and off-site. So, we are starting to look at our workforce and plan our workforce in a very different way. And of course, this is also in line with what we see the demographic trends are. We need to start to build or tap the workforce from alternative non-traditional sources so that we start to have diversity and start to be able to work in or start to respond and anticipate the changes in our workforce now rather than wait to the future.

Gilder

And Soumee, any thoughts on even how we at EY here approach DE&I or other banks in the region are considering DE&I?

De

Thank you, Andrew. I totally agree with Hwee Boon that we are witnessing a fundamental shift in the way that diversity, equity and inclusion is being aligned more to move the needle on, say, the S of the ESG agenda, driving some of our UN SDGs goals, and it's a lot more than just the diversity or a program. Our EY EVP is centered around building an inclusive workforce and we say it's yours to build. And you will see a recent belonging barometer that we ran in '22 with the APAC audiences. And what we noticed was any place, which drives a higher feeling, and a sense of belonging, has higher productivity, it saves costs, and the people are three times more likely to stay with their current employer. With these insights, I'm going to talk about one example of a beautiful journey that EY has taken on the measurable impact.

De

In 2016, EY started the neurodiversity journey. And we now have around more than 19 COEs, Neurodiversity Centers of Excellence globally, and we have around 450 employees in these centers. We are currently working to expand also in the APAC and ASEAN countries. And recently, we were recognized with this Lighthouse Recognition Award by the World Economic Forum in '23 at the Davos in Switzerland. Now what does this mean? It really tries to have that forward-thinking approach toward workforce, bringing in the untapped talent pool. And when we look at some of the skill building, we are going back to the ABCD skills — which are all the digital skills, the adaptable skills, the automation, the cybersecurity, and the data. So, you clearly see a shift toward a diverse and inclusive workforce, and at the same time, the building of those digital and skill sets of the future. So, for companies to really drive transformation, they must bring diverse ways of thinking to the table. DE&I, I agree with Hwee Boon, it's not just a program or initiative, it's about making the business better by creating a better work and life experience for everyone, our employees, clients, and communities.

Gilder

Let's turn our attention to, as an accountant, sometimes I'd deny my accounting past, but I always like to come back to measurement. So, let's move on to how we measure transformation. And Hwee Boon, let's start with you, given you've talked a lot about OCBC's HR transformation journey. What's your take on how banks ultimately measure the success of any talent transformation they take on?

Boon

Thanks, Andrew, I absolutely agree with you. We must be able to measure any transformation effort. And you're absolutely right. To me, I think the first metric that I will look at is transformation must deliver business results. I think that is the whole point of transformation. There is a set of business outcomes that we want to get to. And our role as HR is to work to enable and facilitate that business outcome. So, my first measure that I will say is business results. But then, on the other hand, I will also think about retention as one of the most visible measures of transformation. Our retention rates, what are the attrition rates, and how fast we're able to start to bring people on board with vacancies opening up. And I think the other metrics I always think about really are also about employee engagement. So, what are employees saying about us? How engaged are they? Are they recommending us to their friends? And also, then this feeds back to our ability to bring people in for vacancies. Are we getting people, are employees referring others? Are we getting a larger proportion of internal referrals in how we feel or where we feel our position? So, those are the key metrics I would think about.

Gilder

Soumee, anything to add to that?

De

I'm going to speak about our NextWave strategy. We have those four measures and I find that quite holistic, very similar to what he was saying. One is the financial value — realizing that business case, the result. The client value is the next one — delivering exceptional client experiences in that reimagined future state. The third one is employee value. How do we improve the employee's journey, their engagement, their retention? And constantly look at before and after measures. And finally, the societal value? How are we building that better-working world in the geography, the community, or the environment that we are operating in?

Gilder

So, as we close off today's podcast, I'll close with a question that we've posed at the end of each of the podcasts in this series. And it's around what piece of advice would you give to either a CEO or in this case, a CHRO who is listening to today's podcast? So, we'll start with you Soumee, and then Hwee Boon.

De

It's the same message. There are three parts to it. One, drive a purpose-led sustainable future. Two, enabled by technology data. And three, empowered by an inclusive workforce.

Boon

I think my message to the CEO will be to provide a strong message to the CHRO. I think it should be clear to everyone that HR is not just HR's business. I think it's everyone's business and it's important to rally around the effort. Banking is a people business. And if we do not invest in this single most important asset, I think that it would have been very challenging to deliver the outcomes that we want. So,. I would say, really give a strong mandate, and the entire C-suite team must rally around the CHRO.

Gilder

What a great message to finish with. You can't transform the bank without transforming the workforce. So, thank you both for sharing your experience and expertise on this critical topic, which helps enable banking transformation. It's been a real pleasure to get both of your views, Hwee Boon and Soumee.

Gilder

You've listened to the EY NextWave Banking in Asia-Pacific Podcast. To learn more about EY, our people, and our latest thinking, visit us at ey.com/banking. If you'd like to have a further conversation on what you've just heard or learn more about joining our team at EY, please contact us via the details found in the description. If you liked this episode, please leave a review to help us bring you more insightful and relevant content. And finally, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

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