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How a strong network can drive founder success and investment growth
In this episode of The Better Finance podcast, host Myles Corson speaks with Julia Gudish Krieger, Managing Partner at Pari Passu Venture Partners, about empowering startups through a support network.
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In this episode of The Better Finance podcast, Myles Corson speaks with Julia Gudish Krieger, Managing Partner at Pari Passu Venture Partners and co-founder of the PariPassu investment platform. Julia shares her innovative approach to empowering early-stage companies through a dynamic network of founders and investors.
Drawing on her extensive experience in venture capital and entrepreneurship, Julia emphasizes the importance of community in driving success. She discusses how Pari Passu operates on a deal-by-deal basis, allowing smaller investments from a curated group of accredited investors, fostering collaboration and value beyond just capital.
Julia highlights the role of technology in facilitating these interactions, including a mobile app designed to streamline communication within the community. She also shares insights into current investment themes, such as B2B SaaS, consumer tech, and wellness technology, while addressing the challenges faced by female entrepreneurs.
Key takeaways:
- Understand the drivers of success for early-stage companies.
- Learn how a deal-by-deal investment model can help to build collaboration and deliver value beyond access to capital.
- Discover how technology can enhance communication and engagement within investor networks.
- Gain insights into current investment trends, including B2B SaaS, consumer tech and wellness technology.
- Explore opportunities and benefits of increased diversity in venture capital.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Myles Corson
Hello, and welcome to the EY Better Finance podcast. I'm Myles Corson from the EY organization. Our series explores the changing dynamics of the business world and what it means to the finance leaders of today and tomorrow. I'm in the studio today in person with Julia Gudish Krieger, Managing Partner at Pari Passu Venture Partners, and I'm excited that the video recording of this episode will also be available on YouTube.We'll be discussing Julia's unique approach to empowering early-stage companies through the dynamic network of founders and investors that she's brought together, and some impactful advice for aspiring investors, founders and finance leaders. We'll also touch on key market opportunities and strategies that investors can leverage to help drive long-term value. So, with that, Julia, welcome to the Better Finance podcast.
Julia Gudish Krieger
Thanks so much for having me.Corson
It's great to see you. So perhaps we can start, Julia, just sharing a little bit about your personal journey and your story about how you got to where you are today.Krieger
Sure, my pleasure. I started my career in venture, probably before I could have a legal glass of wine. So, I interned when I was at Harvard. I interned at Insight Partners and had such an incredible experience and ended up signing on to join them full-time for the first five years of my career. And obviously, they built an incredible name for themselves. Back then, they were really one of the first funds that instead of deals coming from partners and golf courses and a couple young people in dark rooms, you know, crunching numbers.They had really flipped that model and so, gave a tremendous amount of autonomy to, you know, the analyst and associate class it’s probably what principals do at other funds. And so, spent the first five years of my career there, invested probably north of $100 million across SaaS [software-as-a-service] and marketplace businesses. Had an incredible journey, and thought I would really stay forever, but then had this entrepreneurial itch that, you know, I'm sure so many other folks are seeing this, you know, are entrepreneurs as well. It's like you just, it crawls under your skin and you have no choice but to leave and start something. And so, they were very supportive. But I left to start a company called Village Luxe, which was a peer-to-peer luxury fashion marketplace.
So, think kind of Airbnb, but for luxury fashion. I had seen at the time, you know, Airbnb and Uber and this, you know, shared economy emerge, which in my mind wasn't going to go away. And so, the question was, what was that sort of next asset that hadn't been disrupted? So left to start that company on the operating side, also had founded and advised a couple companies in F&B [food and beverage] and brick and mortar. And so, having this operational experience and then going back to the investing side.
I was speaking to some of the kind of bigger funds, a la my path before, and had got connected through a board I sit on for YPO Metro New York to my partner, Kyle Widrick, and aligned on this concept of founders supporting founders, and operators supporting operators and the fact that, on a lot of our own cap tech cap tables as founders, the folks that had added the most value were sometimes like the 50 or 100k cheques from people versus some of the funds that, you know, whose capital maybe comes from Harvard endowments, right? It's a little different when it's viscerally, you know, like your money.
And so, rather than going the sort of fund route of joining kind of some of the bigger players, a la the path before, we were aligned to create and cultivate this community that allows founders and operators, you know, and it doesn't just have to be C-suite, right? It can be other titles as well. But to be able to supercharge value-add on cap tables. And so, him and our other partner, Dylan Whitman, had been, you know, on the side investing and having a lot of success with it. And I joined as managing partner three years ago to really build this into a real platform and a real foundation for the success of companies and to really change how we view the venture landscape. So, that was really the seed thought of Pari Passu.
Corson
Fantastic. Well, there's a lot to unpack there in terms of experience and, you know, I love this combination of the hands-on sort of founder experience, but also, then how that informs you as an investor. So, you again, as you think about, you know, how you set Pari Passu up and what really makes it different. Can you talk about, again, what you think is unique and distinctive?Krieger
Absolutely. So, Pari Passu Venture Partners, you know, we built this venture firm very intentionally in a different structure. So rather than being set up as a fund, it's all individual deal-by-deals, right, on the SPV [special purpose vehicle] basis. But we're putting fund-like resources behind it, right? Full-time partners, how we access deals, how we diligence them, how we support them. And that's a very different sort of paradigm shift within venture, because once you go the fund route, you really can't take small cheques from people.It triggers a bunch of regulatory things, as you know, right? And so, the aha moment for us was, you know, if you do believe that it takes a village to succeed, right? Which I think in all parts of life it does, but definitely within business, then what had existed in the current sort of venture landscape was what I would define as the top deals in venture, tier one led funds, oversubscribed rounds. Like those aren't the deals that you would see on crowd equity platforms or angel list typically, right? Like they're filled, they don't need your money, right? And so, if you do believe that folks that have rolled up their sleeves and built something and been smacked around and humbled by entrepreneurship to know, like value-add isn't just asking what numbers are every quarter.
If you believe those folks can add a lot of value, right, more so than the amount of dollars they can put forward, then the current landscape had this set up where the only way to access those top deals would be to be a, you know, LP [limited partner] in a Sequoia Fund or an Andriessen fund, right? Which is typically like US$1 million minimum if you had that access, right? And so, it wasn't set up in the structure from a venture landscape to allow those folks that can add a tremendous amount of value, that unless they've had significant exits, they're not ready to be US$1 million LP in a fund, right? And so, that's really the intention of setting up Pari Passu in this very different structure, where we allow this very curated community of everyone's accredited.
There's a lot of qualified purchase, too, right? We vet folks, as to whether we think they're, you know, value-add. That doesn't mean you're now all of a sudden spending time as an advisor, right? But it does usually end up meaning you're in these roles that have expertise or have a network or have an impact. And so, what we do for this community is give them access to choose not only like deal-by-deal, you know, hey, here are the companies we as the GP [general partner] are investing in, we're opening up, you know, this co-invest opportunity to coinvest with us, but also much more palatable cheque sizes, right? And so, for most of our deals, we try to have a minimum cheque of at least US$10K, but we're on average deploying, you know, a US$1 million to US$2 million into a company. And we've backed, you know, 32 companies to date.
So that's been the real kind of paradigm shift because having access to, again, these really incredible deals within venture, is not typically what you would be able to have with a smaller cheque size. But because we're viewed much more as a strategic investor, founders and lead investors, like they're like, let's make space for Pari Passu. Because if they write a US$1 million cheque, it's, you know, 30 C-suite folks behind the scenes that can add a lot more value than the capital they can put forth.
Corson
Fantastic. And so, you know, you've created this, this amazing network. Can you talk about, again, you describe obviously several times doing diligence and making sure that that network is accretive to the group. But talk about how you decide who you want to be part of that network. And also, there's obviously the benefits you described of from the investor side, access to these funds at smaller levels. But what are the benefits to, you know, to the entrepreneurs and the founders of that network?Krieger
Oh, it's significant, right? I mean, I think, well, to answer your first question, how we sort of view this community, right? We've been very intentional not to create friction. So, it's not a long, you know, weird, friction filled, you know, approval process. You're putting your LinkedIn, you're saying you're accredited. We on the back end are deciding. So, it's quite painless. But the idea isn't too, you know, because we want to be very picky of who we have in, right. It's more so like, I want to continue to be, you know, one of the first choices for founders to take capital because they know behind the scenes, like where capital is coming from.It's like two layers of value-add, right? Us as the partnership, all having been founders ourselves, and having learned many lessons ourselves, you know, rolling up our sleeves, that's one piece of it. And there are amazing, you know, VC [venture capital] investors that are also operators. I think the differentiator is it's two layers of that, right? Because where capital comes from, ultimately, are again, folks that also care, right? Because it's their money personally, but are mostly C-suite and founders and operators and folks that are managing partners at accounting firms and law firms, right? Again, doesn't have to be those titles.
But folks, that from either an operational standpoint or a network standpoint or an access standpoint, when they receive an email from one of our founders that's like, hey, who knows, you know, the CMO [chief marketing officer] at this company or how to approach, you know, like an equity hire, right? Or how to approach this kind of founder disagreement. Realistically, like they know or they're one degree away, right? And so that's, that's the differentiator here. You know, you have really a different level bench of support on your cap table through this very curated community.
Corson
Yeah. So, that's fantastic. I love that. Are there examples of collaborations in practice that you can share about how it's again, sort of created value?Krieger
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, even, even the way that we've actually thought about building this community, for better or for worse, in my mind, it's even less transactional, right? Where like, of course, it would be great if everyone is ready to angel invest and have access to these deals. But in my mind, it’s like who are the smart people that should be sitting at the table because there's so many other things that come out of it from partnerships, right? And people become clients of one another.There's also, you know, the really powerful element of this community, also default kind of is incentivized, like energetically like to be a scout because a lot of the times, like we'll have, one example, there was a founder, amazing female founder that's, an ecom [ecommerce] SaaS [ecommerce software as a service] entrepreneur. And she shot me an email and she's like; we're working with this one group in our marketing tech stack. They're killing it for conversion. Please talk to them, because I would love to put, like a small cheque in, but [they’d] never take one directly.
And if you like it, you can, you know, make a round happen. And so, a lot of the times we don't lead, but we have conviction in our own perspective. So, we're often a yes before there's a lead and pull in really great tier one folks that we've known for, you know, 15 plus years in the space. And so that one conversation with her sending that over this email whereby she might end up being ultimately a US$20k cheque behind the scenes led to us meeting this company, getting to know it early.
And it's probably going to result in, you know, putting up to US$5 million in, right? And so, that's something that I think is very impactful for this community to give it a voice. Not that we're crowdsourcing investment opportunities, but the channel right, of access that these people have to also have an early pulse, is very impactful because you're also deciding ultimately in many ways, right, like who, which companies and which platforms and services are going to exist in five years or 10 years. So that power of the voice, I think is very impactful too.
Corson
Those are great. And I love those examples of the power of the network and some of those things that just spark from the interactions. So again, you built this community. How are you using technology to enable some of these interactions? Because again, you need to have some, some enablement to bring this together.Krieger
Yeah. So, we've actually really invested the time and resources to build our own mobile app. So, it's called ‘PariPassu’. And the idea is we want a really frictionless UI [user interface] for our community. Once you're approved, you have access to this app, although everyone can download it and, you know, apply for approval pretty quickly. But once you're on ‘PariPassu’, rather than shuffling through your emails, right, it's like very easy to see push notification. Here's a new opportunity.Let me look through the memo. Let me see the, you know, video of the founder. Let me double click on this sort of data room. The frictionless of that and this, like, really beautiful clean UI we built is actually very impactful, right. And it's a beautiful thing to send out a deal, go to sleep and wake up to like, a million and a half, you know, without picking up the phone of people wanting to invest in a certain company.
Like that's, it's very easy and accessible. We're breaking through a lot of the noise there. I'd say then the other part of it, you know, why we built Pari Passu the app is, once you have invested in a company, it's just much easier to see founder asks and founder updates, right? Like all of us with great intention want to answer every email that we receive, but there's a lot of noise, right? And so, to be able to get again a push notification, open an app, see their founders looking for, you know, a chief of staff, right? Or looking for, you know, advice how to navigate this sort of situation.
You get much better engagement, right? And so, that's sort of a couple of the layers that the app, you know, entails. And to be able to really track your portfolio and, you know, it's much real time as possible. We pass along everything from the founders and that's really the first iteration. I think future iterations of the app will have a lot more, I would assume, community building elements to it, because we have so many emails from our community wanting to get together offline. We're going to start doing events, right. Like there's a lot of ways, again, that this community can support itself and each other, way beyond capital, and I'm excited to double down on that.
Corson
It's fantastic. I love the way you're blending the virtual and the in-person. That's fantastic. So, you obviously you get visibility to a lot of, you know, investment opportunities. What are some of the key themes that you're seeing come through and where are you specifically investing now?Krieger
Yeah, absolutely. So, I would say sector-wise, and industry-wise, where we end up focusing a lot of time, like our roots are B2B SaaS [business to business software as a service]. So that's a lot of where we have historically spent our time. You know, I think consumer tech as well. On the recent deals, we spent a lot more time in defense tech, AI [artificial intelligence].The sector that I'm very excited about and I'm spending a lot of time in is really the longevity and wellness tech space. I think both like personally as a human, I think it's, it's in a positive direction of hopefully where the world is headed. It's a much more proactive, you know, interventions. And on the investment side, you know, I think a tremendous opportunity.
Corson
Yeah. And that area is kind of empowering people to be more informed about driving outcomes for longevity and wellness, and that the two together is, is really important. It's not just about longevity, it’s about being hip, fit and healthy when you get there. And, are there particular emerging technologies that you find most interesting aside from obviously the longevity and wellness areas?Krieger
There is. I think, you know, longevity, wellness space is very interesting. I think it's hard not to be bullish on defense tech. You know, obviously you have to have very great advisors in that space to help navigate. I think also, you know, within consumer tech, there are some incredible companies. We backed a company called Martie. And they are giving access to like, really like high quality, snacks and products and home goods, at like 30 to 70% off. From a customer UI standpoint, they've built an incredible brand where I use it as much as, like anyone else does, I buy literally all my snacks for my kids from it.But what they really built was this very intentional ecosystem where it's not dilutive for the brands. And so, they're just very, very intensely curated and have had a huge impact on access to healthier, you know, food quality, right. And obviously some of the other kind of products, and a great UI and, you know, great experience and, you know, to people that need it.
So, consumer tech I think is a very interesting space, you know, that we'll always, spend a lot of time in and B2B SaaS, you know, again, it has really been our roots, I think for B2B SaaS, you know, it's really having also a pulse on where AI is going to be an enablement or a disruptor, right? And I think that's a differentiator of a lot of companies that are harnessing sort of its power and, the most impactful ways to be defensible.
Corson
Great, So, no shortage of opportunities.Krieger
There are no shortage of amazing founders and opportunities.Corson
So, with that in mind, again with your experience both as a founder, and as an investor, what advice would you give to founders right now if they're looking to, to grow their businesses and create value?Krieger
So, I think this is probably an atypical answer, but I think it's like the seed answer of all the branches that sort of come out of it. But I think it's to really keep your ego in check. I think the more humility you can foster, the more you will be open to hearing different ideas, the more you will take feedback without being defensive, right? The more you'll see, opportunities to make hires that challenge you, right? I think that's a very important piece, because at the end of the day, you're backing people, right? Investors are backing people. And confidence is one thing, which is important.And you have to have resilience, because no question, founders get smacked around and rejected a lot. But I think, you know, taking the time to really work on yourself and make sure you are grounded, and you have the right resources to kind of, support you on that journey is super impactful. And I think that trickles into, again, so many business and strategic things that come after. But I would say that's like a very key piece to it.
Corson
Yeah. I mean, I've got a couple of friends that have been through that entrepreneurial journey, the resilience point, I think is such a strong one. And, you know, I think motivation can sometimes be a bit lonely.Krieger
Sometimes?Corson
And so that power of network is so important, right? How you surround yourself with an ecosystem that keeps you buoyed up and energized?Krieger
Yeah. And I think also like shedding ego is then the ability to be vulnerable and to be able to ask your advisors and your investors for help versus just sending like, shiny update emails every six months, right? Where, you know, like I've, I've sent those emails as I felt like I know what those are like, right. It's like, hmm, nothing quantitative in there. Lots of shiny qualitative stuff, like what's really going on, right? So, I think one of the benefits of having been a founder before and having this community of, again, like founders and operators, is, I hope not just for the purpose of winning the deal, you know, of building a relationship with a founder that's unique, but for the purpose of being able to support these founders in different ways.Because if they know I've been through it myself, like, we know there's a fire to put out, right? And so, it hopefully builds and fosters a kind of relationship between me and my portfolio companies that, like, they know they can text me and they can ask for help, and they can be vulnerable around the things that aren't going well or that they need help with like that a lot of the times can be the make or break of businesses. Not that I have all the answers, but it's being able to ask the questions to then pull in the right resources, versus operating more from ego, where you just want to make sure you have good news, right. So that's been, I think, an important piece of learning.
Corson
Great, and that's super helpful. And then pivoting to, again, your investor experience. How do you think about or assess opportunities for value creation. And particularly again, as you think about capital allocation, how do you make those decisions? And what are the kind of things you've learned through that, for people that maybe aspire to be in that venture space?Krieger
Yeah, I mean, I, I think number one, you're always backing people, right? And so, are you backing founders that are, you know, humble, intentional, tremendously passionate, borderline obsessive about, you know, the companies they're starting and building - that’s sort of one. I think the second one, you know, is really understanding, like competitive landscape and defensibility. You know, a lot of the times I'll ask founders like, okay, like walk me through the landscape, right. And they'll be like, oh, there's not a direct competitor. And so, the question I always ask, sort of as a follow up to that, is, okay, tomorrow there's going to be a big, sexy press release that your company is raised money or has done, you know, X, Y and Z and sales. Who is going to see that press release and can very easily pivot, right, or has the resources or whatnot.And so, just to think about defensibility and moat, in a broader way, is super important. And the answer to that question sometimes might be like, there's not a ton of defensibility, but we're moving. That's why we're raising, we're moving faster. We have to do this. You know, I think that's something that, founders just have to be real with themselves. And it doesn't mean it's not investable. Right? It means maybe you need to raise more. Maybe you need to hire this other go to market person. Or think about patents or think about other sort of ways to cultivate defensibility.
Corson
Yeah. Your point that the market is not static is really, really important. So, when we spoke previously, you've mentioned only 2% of VC funding goes to female entrepreneurs. And you obviously being on that journey yourself. And so, what steps do you think we could be taking to support female entrepreneurs better? And were there any particular challenges that you experienced and how did you overcome those?Krieger
Sure, that's a great question. So, I think one of the solutions to more female founders getting backed is more female cheque writers. I think you can extrapolate that to, you know, a lot of other elements in diversity, right? And sociodemographic factors, right, and whatnot. I think the more power you put into cheque writers that are diverse, that are women, you know, to be able to both identify great companies and actually open up their cheque book to support them. I think the more you end up with outcomes of making sure, you know, the best companies get backed, but you're not like leaving big sort of chunks out.So, I'm very excited to back amazing founders. And a lot of them happen to be women. I think for us across the portfolio, about 20% of the companies that we've backed have a female co-founder. I would love that to be higher, better than 2%, better than 2%. And a lot of it has been in the last like a year and a half. So, we're tracking in the right direction. But I really ultimately believe that, you know, the more you empower people to be cheque writers themselves, even before they can put US$1 million into, you know, being an LPN [limited partner network] of a tier one fund, that's the real power to be able to affect the outcome.
Corson
Fantastic. We’ll that's great. We appreciate you sharing that. And then you’re on this journey you've been on both as a founder and investor. I'm sure you've worked with a lot of CFOs and finance executives. What, what would you say the attributes in either or both of your roles that you appreciate in strong finance leaders to help you be successful?Krieger
That's a great question. I think the finance leaders that go so much beyond the numbers and are just, a strategic, you know, partial quarterback, right, for the company, right? I think those are the ones that, I've seen be so impactful for us. But for CEOs, you know, as well of companies that we've, you know, supported, and invested in and evaluated, you know, I think CFOs that you could really tell are well beyond just the financial management of the company, right? Much more of a long-term strategic thinker, are a much more helping the CEO and the board make data-driven decisions, challenging and pushing back and stepping in when needed on fundraise conversations, right. And like those, those I think are the most impactful sort of team members versus someone just, you know, making sure no one's getting audited or looking, any of those other sort of more defensive tactics.Corson
Great, well, I think that that resonates with a lot of what we've talked about previously on the podcast. Great to hear you reinforce that. So, Julia, we’ve covered a lot of ground. Really appreciate all the insights you've shared about your career and the business and some of your perspectives. Just as we wrap up, you know, we'd like to learn a little bit more about you and the personal you. So is there one quote that you come back to frequently in reference?Krieger
Yes. There is a quote that I like. It goes something like this. “The best way to predict the future is to create it.” And I love that quote because I think we are in a process of creation minute-by-minute, right. I think very intentionally and how I want to live my life. I want to be a co-creator of it versus have things affect me in the wind blows and I sort of sway. And I think it's a very empowering realization of, like, we can create anything around us, right? I think we have this tendency as human beings to sort of focus on the potential negative impact that one person can have. But if that's true, then the opposite is also true of the potential positive, you know, impact a person can have. And I think it's up to us to sway that for ourselves.Corson
Yeah, I love that. And again, with all the disruption we all see professionally, personally, you know, you say you're either a recipient of it or you're shaping and influencing what it what it looks like. So, I love that that's a very positive message. And then as you reflect back on your career, was there a piece of advice or recommendation that was given to you by mentor or someone you work with that really stood out and had a big impact on your career?Krieger
I think one of the biggest pieces of advice, and it works for business, but it's really like whole person advice is just this concept of flow versus force. I think so many of us being overachievers and, you know, you can get yourself for I'll speak for myself. It's like I've been in times where I'm in this state of like super efficiency or whatnot, or you're navigating challenges of a deal or whatnot, and you realize energetically you're operating from this place of like forcing and powering it through. And I think to have the self-awareness to pause and recenter and ground and get yourself more in a state of flow.A lot of the times, like taking that pause versus powering through is what actually gives you the space for ideas to come in and solutions, right, or whatnot. And I think that historically, in my earlier years, I had the tendency of thinking, you have to like, brute force your way through it. And I think it's a rewiring of the system to actually know when to pause and when going to take a 30-minute walk in a forest or something will do better for you than to power through, you know, because it's a very different state of mind and flow and creative problem solving and everything else. And so, I've tried my best to apply that to all parts of my life. And it has had very positive effects.
Corson
Fantastic. Well, that's great advice. And it kind of leads into the final question, which is, again, we all face this challenge of so much coming at us, so many pressures. Yet, what are the things that you do to maintain personal wellness and balance?Krieger
I do a lot, actually. I need a lot of help.Corson
Three kids under six.Krieger
I do. I have a six, three and two, so it's a party. I do a lot because I want to make sure, like, energetically, that I, like, can hold the space of everything that I want to accomplish. And so, on a personal front and business front. I do a cold plunge almost every morning. Well, my husband did it for so long, and I would make fun of him. And then I started doing it. I'm like, damn it, you're right. This is actually very good. So literally wake up, jump in a cold plunge. You know, if it's in the winter, it's like you can literally fill your tub and keep your window open and it will be 45 degrees.So, it doesn't mean you have to have all these contraptions or whatnot to do it. Cold plunge, straight into a hot shower, start my day with a lot of intention. Really, also, again, obviously very interested in the wellness and longevity side, but there are some things that I'm using myself personally. Actually, one that we did end up investing in. I was a customer of it first called Ammortal. And so, like the Ammortal Chamber. Well, it's effectively like a human charging station. It's like five different modalities.
You're breathing molecular hydrogen. It's infrared, near-infrared light. It's like 22 minutes, and like it's a huge impact on cellular restoration. And so, that’s something that I've started doing about once a week. And then the recent thing that I started doing, which is going to sound a little bit nuts, I ordered this thing, it's literally an acupressure mat that's like akin to kind of in India, where that used to lay on a bed of nails.
It sounds kind of crazy, right? But you lay on this thing supposed to be at night. It's very painful for five minutes. And then your whole just body just releases all of its stress and you'll sleep like you've never slept before. So, I do that as well. And then I got a grounding sheet two months ago, and that was a real game changer, where it's literally a sheet that plugs into the if you have a three-prong outlet, the bottom hole is a grounding port. So, it's actually connected to the ground. And so, it changes the inflammation in your body. And it's the most passive wellness thing you can do for yourself because you're literally sleeping, you know, seven, eight hours a night and removing inflammation in your body.
So, I do a lot because I feel like we need a lot of help. And so anything that I can do that sets me up to be more in that state of flow benefits the time that I'm with my kids to be more present, you know, and not have just things rumbling around in the background. And benefits my marriage, benefits my business, benefits like all parts of life. I think in prior years, I didn't take time for myself because I was like, how can I meditate? I'm too stressed, right? So, so the irony of it, right? I'm busy. Busy and stressed. I just see now how, how important it is to take that time because then everything that flows from it, it's so much more impactful and positive.