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Why healthy rivers are critical to businesses and the economy
In this episode of the Sustainability Matters podcast, leaders from Cox Communications and American Rivers discuss freshwater risks and share insights on their critical role in strengthening communities and supporting resilient commerce.
In this episode of the Sustainability Matters podcast, Bruno Sarda hosts a discussion with Mark Greatrex, President of Cox Communications, and Tom Kiernan, CEO of American Rivers, about the pivotal role of water in supporting communities and businesses. The guests emphasize that, amid increasing challenges such as nature loss, pollution, drought, flooding and other climate extremes, safeguarding rivers is now more critical than ever for commercial interests and economic health.
The dialogue explores how organizations can deepen their understanding of their reliance on healthy river systems, advance solutions through collaborative efforts, and promote water-positive and nature-positive practices.
Additionally, the speakers underscore the importance of strategic partnerships in achieving watershed-scale outcomes. Effective collaboration between businesses and nonprofit organizations facilitates data sharing, strategic alignment, and the development of practical projects that provide multifaceted benefits to communities, industries and ecosystems.
Both guests highlight the value of establishing relationships prior to crises, so that trust and momentum are established when challenges inevitably arise.
Key takeaways:
Companies should consider building early partnerships with river groups to secure trust before crises occur.
Businesses should prioritize multi-benefit projects and restoration efforts to boost habitats and resilience.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Tom Kiernan
Water is the defining issue of our time. With more floods, more droughts, we need to better understand the water cycle.
You can have a conservative angler or a more progressive river advocate or a businessperson — and everybody wants to have a healthy river to go skipping stones with their children on.
Mark Greatrex
Rivers are super resilient. The Klamath River that flows from Southern Oregon, it was dammed up for over 100 years. Lots of organizations worked for decades to take the dams out. And you know what? Within three days of the dam removal, the salmon were swimming back upstream. It just underscores how resilient rivers are.
Bruno Sarda
Hello and welcome to the Sustainability Matters podcast, our regular look at sustainability topics and how they impact businesses around the globe. I'm Bruno Sarda, EY Americas Climate Change and Sustainability Services Leader, and your host for this discussion. Thanks for tuning in to our podcast. And today, we're diving into a topic that touches every community and every business: water. Freshwater systems are under increasing stress, and the risks tied to nature loss are becoming impossible to ignore.
So, how can companies better understand their reliance on nature and take action to protect it? And what role can partnerships play in finding new ways to scale solutions? So, to explore these questions today, I'm joined by Mark Greatrex , President of Cox Communications and National Board Director at American Rivers, and Tom Kiernan, CEO of American Rivers, whose mission is to work for a future when every river is clean and healthy for people and wildlife.
So, together, they'll share insights on Cox's nature-positive strategy, the mission of American Rivers to restore US waterways, and how collaboration between business and nonprofits can create lasting change. This is a conversation about resilience, about responsibility and the power of working together to drive systemic change. So, welcome to you both. Mark, maybe to start with you: Cox has a long history of corporate responsibility and stewardship and recently introduced a nature-positive strategy. What does that mean for the business? And why was water such a priority?
Greatrex
Well, first off, Bruno, fantastic to be with you and Tom, really looking forward to our conversation. As you know, Bruno, Cox Enterprises has a very broad business portfolio and we're unified by having a single mission, which is building a better future for the next generation. Cox Enterprises, our parent company, is over 125 years old, and for generations — and we're on the fourth generation now — we have been committed to the long-term health of the business and of the planet. And for us, protecting the planet isn't separate from running a great business. We have ambitious goals, we love metrics and we've set ourselves some pretty lofty goals on the environmental front. So, I'll give you an example.
We are aiming to be water positive by 2050, and we have some short-term targets along the way: like by 2034, we're going to be reducing the water that's used across our operations and contributing to the improved health of high-risk watersheds where we do business. And, you know, water is a priority for many different reasons, and we’ll hear from my great colleague at American Rivers, Tom, about the importance of water.
But for our business out west, we face water scarcity. In the east, we have an overabundance of water sometimes because of storms and hurricanes. And we have water quality issues. So, when we do good by rivers and we work toward having clean water, that's good for our communities, our customers, our employees and our business.
Sarda
Fantastic. Thanks, Mark. So, Tom, great segue here. But, you know, American Rivers has a clear and compelling mission to restore and protect US waterways. Can you share what that looks like in practice, and why that matters now more than ever?
Kiernan
Yeah, Bruno. Very happy to do that. I'll preface the remarks first by thanking you for having us on this podcast, and thank Mark and the team at Cox for their extraordinary commitment, which is very genuine and significant — and we applaud. So, backing up, the importance of rivers — I mean, you can look at it from so many perspectives. First, I mean, obviously, we get a majority of our drinking water from our rivers. We recreate on our rivers. We walk by the rivers.
Rivers are essential habitats for wildlife that we both enjoy but also depend on. Rivers are also a source for irrigation, for our agriculture, for all the fruits and vegetables and meats that we eat. All of these benefits that we enjoy daily come from our rivers. And so, at American Rivers, where — Bruno, thank you — we talk about every river, clean and healthy for people and wildlife, we first think about the most cost-effective thing to do is to protect a healthy river. When you've got a river that is healthy and dynamic, has clean water, and has appropriate amounts of water, let's protect that river. Let's make sure it's there for future generations and current generations. And we also look at rivers that are damaged.
So, at American Rivers, we spend a lot of time restoring damaged rivers — whether it's with dams or floodplains, disconnected or poor water quality, or what have you — and we can talk about that. But at American Rivers, we're committed to cleaning our rivers for the benefit of people and communities and businesses, as Mark mentioned. And it's a really exciting, positive and inspiring place to work.
Sarda
That's terrific. And, you know, you both touched on some of these dimensions of why water and waterways and healthy waterways, productive waterways, and water management matter. You both represent different sectors of the economy — business and nonprofit. And how do your organizations work together? And what makes this kind of partnership successful?
Greatrex
Yes, certainly. So, I talked about how big an ambition we have on the water front. And it's so imperative to have partnerships like we have with American Rivers because we can't do this alone. We can't have the impact we want to have without having partners at both the national level and partners that can help us galvanize local organizations. And so, that's, sort of, why we invest so much in partners and value them.
I would say, just as an aside, my personal involvement in water — because people might wonder, “Hey, what's Greatrex up to?” you know, “Why is he so interested in rivers and floodplains and clean water?” Well, a million years ago, I had a job that took me around the globe, and I saw water scarcity issues firsthand, I saw water quality issues firsthand. And when I got back to Atlanta for a job based here in the US, I said, “I can make a difference.” And I joined the Chattahoochee Riverkeeper Board here in Atlanta and served for six years.
We made a big, big impact — made a huge difference. And then, I was able to take my passion for water and rivers and take that to the national level with American Rivers. So, for me, it's incredibly fulfilling to run a large for-profit organization and plow some of those profits alongside our partners into preserving and restoring the health of our rivers.
Kiernan
And if I can jump in once again to commend Mark and Cox, but I also, from a nonprofit perspective or from a perspective — I mean, I grew up in the creek across the street from my house, and that creek leads down to the Potomac River. And that's where I physically and emotionally grew up, if you will. So, I've been a lifelong river advocate.
I'll also say businesses, industry and commerce are so impactful, and are so large and expansive that for those of us who are advocating for rivers and water quality, I would argue we need to work with business because the impact, the scale is extraordinary. So, at American Rivers, and a lot of our colleague organizations — whether Chattahoochee Riverkeepers or — there are thousands of river and watershed groups throughout the country that are just outstanding. But when we partner with businesses, candidly, we learn something.
I mean, they're looking at water and these issues from their perspective. It's brilliant and wonderful when folks like Mark, who are leading these companies and have a personal awareness, but even if they're leaders who may not be as attuned as Cox is, getting around the table for the nonprofit river advocates and the business community to get together, to talk, to share information, to talk strategy and find solutions that work for businesses because, you know, the economy matters a lot, but find those solutions that also work for the rivers that either maintain or even improve water quality.
That's what we're looking for. And I genuinely believe and have experienced that there are so many individuals and companies that do value water. You can have, you know, if you will, stereotypical conservative angler or a more progressive river advocate or a business person — and everybody cares about water. Everybody wants to have a healthy river to go skipping stones with their children on.
So, what American Rivers and Cox, and I know others — we're all about getting these different groups together to find solutions for protecting or restoring our rivers and water.
Sarda
Now, that's great, Tom. And I think, you know, both of you touched on this idea that, for many, when we think about water, you know, we think about the environmental dimensions, right? That water scarcity or even nature risks are seen as environmental issues and sometimes have been framed alongside a particular political spectrum, but in fact, they have very real economic and social impact. Mark, looking at it through the business lens, how do you frame that? How do you communicate that urgency to your stakeholders?
Greatrex
You know, Bruno, one of the most fulfilling things that we do here at Cox, across all of Cox Enterprises, is we enable and encourage our colleagues to volunteer. And we have some of the most engaged employees in the telecommunications industry. And when they volunteer, they are often doing river cleanups or cleaning up beaches. And what I find is that, as a leader of huge teams of people, volunteering, getting into the rivers, helping clean up really galvanizes and motivates teams.
And I have been on river and beach cleanups from coast to coast, and I just find it — it's a beautiful thing when I'm in a river surrounded by a very diverse group of colleagues who are energized, they're fulfilled, being in service of others, being in service of nature. It's uplifting. It's good for our physical health and emotional health. So, you know, one of the things that I find is that being in and around rivers with my colleagues is something that really unifies us and motivates us.
And then, there's a sense of hope that comes from this type of work. Rivers are super resilient. And a good example of that is the Klamath River that flows from Southern Oregon into Northern California, and it flows for about 250 miles. It was dammed up for over 100 years. American Rivers, along with many of the tribal nations there locally, and lots of organizations, worked for decades to take the dams out.
I think there were four huge hydroelectric dams there. And you know what? Within three days of the dam removal, the salmon were swimming back upstream to lay their eggs and spawn. I mean, it was over a hundred years that they hadn't been able to get upstream. And it just underscores how resilient nature is and how resilient rivers are. And I think, for all of us, that level of restoration and rejuvenation is just super energizing.
So, for me, running a large business, yes, we have to be mindful about our environmental footprint. We have resources that we can leverage to build a better future for the next generation. Water is something that has a natural energy of its own that I've seen really uplift and motivate people. So, it's good for business, but it's certainly good for the soul of our employees.
Kiernan
And Mark, if I can jump in and I’m humored that you spent a lot of time talking about the environmental side, I want to talk about the business importance of rivers. And this is, candidly, one of the benefits of getting together is you understand where other people are coming from.
Two perspectives that I'll add from a business perspective: One is data centers. There's so much appropriate discussion these days about artificial intelligence and the need to power the artificial intelligence that people are using and businesses are using. We need more data centers. Data centers use an extraordinary — it varies by the data center — but in general, they use an extraordinary amount of water for cooling of all the computer chips inside.
And the importance of — yes, we need that development, but figuring out how to do it in ways that is not impairing the river that it's not extracting excessive amounts of groundwater to cool. So, we need the water for cooling data centers. That's great. Another kind of extreme — but I'll harken back. It was, I want to say, two or three years ago, but the Mississippi in the middle of the country had a major drought one year. And shipping was dramatically reduced on the Mississippi, which meant most of our agricultural products coming out of the Midwest could not get shipped abroad.
And then, it was a year later, we had massive floods coming down the Mississippi. And there again, economic impact was significant, and the commerce of America was impaired and slowed down. It was a problem, and here because, the mighty Mississippi, we are not effectively, appropriately caring for that entire watershed, and we need to do better. We need to do better for the reasons Mark has said — for enjoying the river, ensuring salmon can return back up and be more resilient, but also for commerce — whether for data centers or for shipping.
We need healthy rivers to be able to meet all of our needs, and having those healthy rivers does mean we've got to do a better job protecting some rivers, and we've got to be restoring those rivers that are damaged.
Sarda
That's actually a really important point, Tom. You know, similar to Mark, in a previous life, I led sustainability for a large power company in the US. You know, and for all the thermal power generation, also, you need an enormous amount of water for cooling. And you take a lot of that water for granted because you usually put your power plant next to a body of water. So, basically, you're often not paying for that water. And the conversation I would often have is, you know, water has a very low price but a very high value in the business.
And that value is not always captured. And I was intrigued earlier, Tom, you mentioned this idea that the smartest, cheapest thing we can do is to protect healthy rivers. And you gave examples like the data center boom we're seeing, and the costs, you know, when the waterways or a watershed stop performing in the ways that we expect — the immediate costs and sometimes, frankly, crisis that can often generate.
What are examples of communities or industries that are really reliant on these healthy watersheds, and how can they better get involved relative to what's at stake for them?
Kiernan
Humorously, Bruno, I'll actually kind of ask the reverse question: What community or industry is not reliant on a river? I mean, you can go from, you know, small little communities in Vermont that, you know, have small old mills that used to power industry.
But that river watershed is now getting hammered up in Vermont. They've had a couple of years in a row of 100-year floods. I mean, the math on that doesn't work. So, the point is you've got communities that are reliant on both enjoying and using that river for drinking water and recreation. You've got industries. I mentioned agriculture earlier. Obviously, you said power; there's the ski industry — you know, those are just specific examples — agriculture. I'll also mention hydropower.
Hydropower is a significant source of electricity in the country, and at American Rivers, we are not at all opposed to hydropower. There are times and places where it's profoundly needed and helpful and supportive. Candidly, we do have concerns with some hydropower dams. We also have concerns with a lot of old, abandoned and unsafe dams that are harming the rivers.
But the point is, we need our rivers — whether for cooling for data centers or for power plants, as you mentioned, for drinking water, for agriculture. What we are advocating for and working with businesses is to try to get to solutions that work for our economy and our drinking water and for recreation and for habitat for wildlife. So, trying to figure out — we often use the term “multi-benefit solution.”
We're trying to figure out ways that meet our community needs and our personal needs and our business needs and wildlife habitat needs. And we are finding in American Rivers many examples. Sorry to go on, but one example I look forward to is getting out to a grasslands project in California that we're doing in partnership with a lot of different companies and groups, including Cox.
And this is to restore grassland next to a river. It's part of a kind of a floodplain. In that floodplain, by allowing the water to seep out, slow down and filter down will be recharging the aquifer, the groundwater underneath, which has been on the decline. So, this is a project restoring habitat but also allowing that water to recharge the aquifer from which we get our drinking water and from which agriculture does some irrigation.
So, the point being, there are projects like that grasslands project that Cox is helping to support that lead to multiple benefits for communities, industry, wildlife habitat and for our own drinking water.
Greatrex
Bruno, I might add that Tom and the team at American Rivers have built out a national database that is capturing the state of American rivers, and they built out a national database around floodplains, which ones are healthy and which ones need help. So, what I would say to any for-profit company out there, there is likely a project close to you where you can make a difference. And, you know, we all would like to think global, act local. There are so many local opportunities to help preserve or restore rivers or enhance floodplains and thereby conserve water or actually rehydrate an aquifer near you.
So, anyway, I would say that's an invite to any for-profit organizations who might be listening to this podcast.
Sarda
That's a great example, I think, of a practical step. I mean, you talked earlier about engaging even your employee base and volunteering in broader community engagement. Clearly, you know, we need to move beyond kind of this heroic type and really make it more systemic. Are there other examples relative to broader community or business engagement to drive systemic change on this topic?
Greatrex
A couple of thoughts from the Cox Enterprises’ perspective. One part of our environmental strategy is that we believe that people will protect what they know and love. So, part of our strategy is to try to encourage people to get out in the great outdoors
And we've actually just recently launched a whole new business unit called Cox Outdoors, that’s starting with brands, such as Loop fly fishing Tackle and KUIU outdoor gear . And that's just the start of a business that has part of its mission to encourage people to be out in the great outdoors. Another great example in terms of community engagement and actually developing environmentalists of our future is one of the programs I saw at the Chattahoochee Riverkeeper, which was called Floating Classrooms.
So, we actually get young kids in urban schools, K through 12 , out on some of the lakes around Atlanta to learn about the water ecosystem. And I think that's a really powerful way to bring our young people to the water so that they can learn, they can fall in love, and hopefully in the future, become conservationists.
Kiernan
And Mark, if I can just build on that with a reason for the importance of doing that kind of effort. But so many others, we are seeing more extreme weather events. I mean, it's just happening where we're seeing more flooding and more intense floods and more intense droughts. So, just on the drought side, the southwest in America, I mean, we are seeing the aridification of the southwest. The amount of water flowing down the Colorado River is moving from roughly 14,000 acre-feet to about 9,000 or 8,000 acre-feet per year.
We're seeing it decline, and that is impacting just whether it's housing developments, whether it's businesses, whether it's the amount of agriculture in the southwest. So, water is the defining issue of our time. With more floods, more droughts, we need to better understand the water cycle, because, as you know, water is essential to all life. We're going to see more extremes. With the extremes, I'll just point out, we're already seeing more stormwater runoff into our rivers. So, the largest source of pollution in our rivers is what's called stormwater. So, when you have an intense rain event, it's washing whether it's a lot of debris off of roads, whether it's herbicides and pesticides and fertilizer off of agricultural fields.
So, that's the largest source of pollution into our rivers is stormwater, and the fastest-growing source of pollution. So, we need to struggle — we need to figure out how to deal with stormwater. And one of the best ways, you know, Mark, is you were sharing your story is to get people engaged, to have people understand their backyard river and why they should care about it. I’ll close with a little anecdote, if I may: This morning was the first time in about a month I was able to row on the Potomac River.
I row with a team, but a little over a month ago, we had one of the largest wastewater spills in the country's history ever — over 230 million gallons of untreated wastewater dumped into the Potomac because of a failed water pipe or wastewater pipe. We are going to see, in the coming years, unfortunately, more and more events like that as our water infrastructure ages.
So, all of these issues — whether it's more flooding, more drought or the need to invest in infrastructure — these are going to get more intense in the coming years. We're going to see it impacting our rivers, upon which all life depends, from which we get our water — the majority of it. So, that's a long summary. But the importance of people to get involved, to care about their river, their backyard river, and water is something that, whether it's a business or a nonprofit, we need to be coming together to talk about working together and finding solutions.
Sarda
These are very powerful examples, Tom. And for sure, your description of the situation with the Colorado River hits me closely. I've been a part-time faculty member in the School of Sustainability at Arizona State University for over a decade. And clearly, that topic is very high on the list, along with the realization that academics and scientists alongside business and, you know, nonprofit organizations and policymakers and the broader communities need to come together because the stakes couldn't be higher in any given area for whether it's the communities that had experienced, to your point, Tom, repeated events that are described as 100-year or 1,000-year events, and they're like, we've had three of these in the last five years. Clearly, we need to change the naming convention. So, looking ahead, you know, I think it strikes me how successful this kind of partnership, this kind of focus has been. So, looking ahead, you know, what does success look like for this kind of partnership and for the broader movement toward nature- and water-positive strategies? What's the North Star right now?
Kiernan
An encouragement to business folks, encouragement to nonprofit leaders: be curious. Ask questions. Begin to try to understand other perspectives related to water, rivers, others that are working around it. Invariably, I have found I've learned something, and especially with water, virtually everybody cares about it. Now, people may be thinking about it from different perspectives.
People may have different political views. That's all great, but water can bring people together. But we need to start with some curiosity. So again, for business leaders, reach out to your local conservation group or your local river group. Ask them questions, try to understand them, get involved, find some solutions, and say, “I'm very much on the advocacy side,” or the local watershed group.
We need to do a better job reaching out to businesses, reaching out to those that are wanting to build data centers. Let's get in dialogue. Let's talk. Let's understand, because that's the best first step toward trying to build some solutions that meet the needs of business and individuals and communities. You’ve got to start with simple curiosity.
Greatrex
And I would say, Tom, get the flywheel moving. The hardest thing in the world is to get that flywheel actually starting to turn. And, you know, all of this may seem like a very big undertaking. And if you're a business, you can partner up with partners like EY, partners like American Rivers. And first of all, just get your arms around what is our footprint as a business?
Where are the pinch points? And then, armed with that data, start to set some achievable goals. And any progress is good progress. I learned that there are four million miles of rivers across our beautiful nation, so the likelihood is there is a river near your business that probably needs your help. If so, I'd say give Tom a call and he'll point you in the right direction.
Kiernan
Thank you, Mark, for that. And if I can also encourage, yes, the outreach and do that before a crisis. If you're a business leader, don't wait till you know you have some major water problem or you have some group criticizing your water policy. The time to do it is now, when you can gently, quietly begin to be curious, talk with people, meet, understand, build some collaboration, build some dialogue and some trust.
If you're trying to do that in the heat of some issue or challenge or crisis your company is facing, that's a day late and a dollar short, or what have you. You want to reach out and engage organizations early, when you can do it in a relaxed way, a genuine way. And then, build the relationships and partnerships and some projects, and that gets to, Mark, your flywheel point of starting to get some relationships going. And that's how we build the momentum. And candidly, then when a crisis happens or you've got a huge challenge with your business and you've got a water challenge, well, you know who to call, and they're going to take a call and they're going to know that you're genuine and really want to work this through. So, start the process early and do it with curiosity.
Sarda
Well, I am frankly very sad to wrap this up. You know, it's such a fascinating topic. And thank you both for bringing such expertise and insight, but frankly, passion to this topic. It's been a fascinating discussion, and frankly, I think, given us all some inspiring clarity on this crucial topic.
I mean, as we've discussed, nobody is not affected by this. Nobody can choose not to care. And I love some of this advice, you know: get involved. Be curious. If you're a business, understand both your reliance and your impact on your local water systems, and do so before you have to do it in an emergency. I think that's great advice, Tom. Right. The ounce of prevention versus pound of cure, I think, applies very much here. But also, I love the advice to, you know, find partners.
Again, everybody has shared goals here. And there's plenty of room to find common cause among those that may not always have exactly the same approaches or objectives but ultimately will benefit from the results. And then, I think Mark, you know, get going, do something. The journey of thousands steps start with the first one or whatever. But for everyone else, you know, thank you for listening to Sustainability Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please check out previous episodes on ey.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
We'd love for you to subscribe, and ratings, reviews and comments are also very welcome. Visit ey.com, where you'll find a wide range of related and interesting articles to help put these bigger topics in the context of your business priorities. Certainly, check American Rivers’ website as well. I personally found a lot of really interesting information as well. And we look forward to welcoming you on the next episode of Sustainability Matters.
My name is Bruno Sarda. You can find me on LinkedIn and feel free to connect with me there. Thanks so much for listening.
