00:00:00 - 00:02:05
Diana Halder
Welcome to Making Waves in Payments, an EY podcast that takes you on a journey throughout the fascinating world of payments. I’m your host, Diana Halder, EY Canada’s Payments Practice Leader. Normally in this podcast we’d discuss the latest trends, innovations and challenges that are shaping the way we pay. But today, we’re celebrating women with a special episode featuring excerpts from my conversations with some influential names across the Canadian payments landscape. We spoke with Sasha Krstic, President of Mastercard Canada, Sundeep Bassi, Head of Global Product Partnerships for Payments and Financial Services at Shopify, Chris Manning, Executive Vice President at Scotiabank, and our very own Kim Lesley, a senior Consulting Partner here at EY. Full disclosure, Kim is a personal friend and mentor of mine who has guided me in my career at EY. We spoke about the importance of mentors and sponsors throughout the stages of a career. We got a real glimpse into the commendable work these four leaders are doing to celebrate, inspire and propel women in their careers. Everyone was so generous, thoughtful and candid, sharing their wisdom on how to uplift people in the payment sector, and frankly across all sectors and industries. Over the next few weeks, we’ll share these one-on-one conversations in full. But for right now, I want to share some snippets from this group on trust, curiosity, authenticity and advocacy. Let’s begin with Sasha. We spoke to her about her personal journey towards self-trust. What would you say you're doing now to create moments of where, whether it's younger men or women, people in your professional or personal life, where you're creating the opportunity for them to trust their voice?
00:02:07 - 00:04:05
Sasha Krstic
So, I think that notion of trusting your voice ebbs and flows throughout your career. I think that's a, really a key message because it's not like, certainly not like I figured it out and I think most of us go through points in our lives, in our careers, where things are easier, tougher. So that notion of ebb and flow, I just want to make sure that we get that message across. What do I do now? I do a lot. I think of what I learned from people who mentored me and set me on good examples. And I try and bring a fresh perspective given we now have different ways of working. And I think how you provide people opportunities changes as we go into this much more global, much more hybrid, much more digital world. But I think it comes down to a few things. Listening and watching your teams and people around you because you pick up on people's interests and strengths differently than how they might present themselves. That's one. Trusting your team members feedback around their team members. Because as teams grow and get bigger and bigger, you can't know everybody in the way on a personal level as you might like. So you have to trust the people that know them better. So that's sort of from an input perspective. What inputs do I take to identify? Who do you potentially figure out a way to put forward and give them stretch opportunities? And that would be the second. It’s really giving people the opportunity to be showcased in their area of expertise so that it draws some attention to them. That's one. And two would be the flip side of that, is actually giving people the opportunity to do something or putting them in a situation that is outside of what they normally do, because that's often where skills shine, because we think about people in a box or in a role. This person is a great finance professional. This person is an outstanding marketing expert. But the skills that they have could translate to other areas as well. And so, I think identifying that and giving opportunities is a really important one.
00:04:05 - 00:04:48
Diana Halder
Sasha talked about the importance of trusting in one's own voice and trusting in your team members when navigating your career. Moral of the story; careers are full of ups and downs, where we need to take risks and provide opportunities for ourselves and our teams. Now, let’s turn to my next guest, Sundeep Bassi, Head of Global Product Partnerships and Payments at Shopify. Sundeep’s perspective is that curiosity isn't just a trait, it is the bedrock of achieving excellence in work and play. Let’s dive into how curiosity shapes her leadership style and the way she builds high-performing teams. Here’s what Sundeep had to say.
00:04:48 - 00:06:27
Sundeep Bassi
It's hard to put it into like specific steps. I think what I've seen with strong talent in any role, in any capacity, on any level is curiosity. It is the number-one indicator of success of any candidate, someone that is new to a role or somebody that's been in a role and making impact for some time. I think that level of curiosity, the ability to just figure things out, the ability to want to learn and challenge themselves within the role, so not just doing kind of what's been presented to them as like, here's kind of the priorities for the role, but always constantly looking for their own spin of how I take priorities within my team or what I've been given as my objectives, and then providing your own color, spin and ability. I think it's just one of the traits that I've just seen across different talent that I've had within my current team or being a people leader over the years, it’s the ones that always are just curious and looking for more are the ones that end up being your top performing. And so that's a trait that I look for in building that high performance of a team. There are steps you can take where you can encourage that, where you can have your team always looking at the outside in thinking about what's happening in the industry, applying that to their day-to-day roles. And so it constantly has them thinking about what more can I do, what else should I be figuring out? How else can I add value? And if you have folks on your team that are constantly thinking like that, I feel like that trait leads to very high-performing teams.
00:06:27 - 00:07:06
Diana Halder
Thank you Sundeep for highlighting the transformative power of curiosity in building high-performing teams and driving individual success. As we go deeper in our conversations another dimension emerges: authenticity. This brings us to Kim Lesley, a senior Consulting Partner at EY, and mentor to many. She discusses the importance of being your true self while adapting to change. If there was one lesson that, you know, you find yourself saying, hey, this is the one thing you take home, here it is. What would that be?
00:07:06 - 00:08:14
Kim Lesley
Be your authentic self, because nothing is worse than trying to be somebody you're not because you think it's going to help somebody else. You've got to find that balance of being your authentic self, but also understanding what motivates other people. Because just because something motivates you doesn't mean that's a motivation factor for somebody else. So, you've got to figure out what motivates other people, be able to incorporate that into the approach of whatever it is you're doing with these other people, whether it be directing them, coaching them, whether you're their lead reviewer or whatever. But while being authentic to yourself, because if I wasn't authentic, people would notice it right away. If I didn't have any energy and emotion around what I do, people would notice it and they wouldn't, quite frankly, they wouldn't seek out the mentoring and they wouldn't seek out the advice or the conversations because why would you.
00:08:14 - 00:08:44
Diana Halder
Let’s circle back to Sasha. Sasha gives us a fresh perspective on the importance of being proactive in seeking guidance and advocacy. She talks about the distinction between mentors and sponsors, and how we should engage with each. Let's listen to Sasha as she shares her thoughts on making the most of these essential relationships. What advice would you give for folks seeking sponsors?
00:08:44 - 00:12:57
Sasha Krstic
It’s a really interesting question, because conventional definitions would say mentors are people that help you reflect and are a sounding board and give you good advice. And sponsors are the ones that advocate for you and you ask and find and search out mentors. But sponsors kind of happen to you, right? They pick you rather than you pick them. So I think your question is really interesting because I'm not sure that's the way, I think there is a much closer melding and blending of mentorship and sponsorship. And what I mean by that is, I do think it's okay to ask someone to sponsor you. I do think it's okay for a mentor to identify someone and say, Hey, I have some advice, are you interested? So, it's more changing it into a dialog that's a two-way street. And so then the question becomes, as a woman or as a young woman in particular, if you're starting out in your career, how do you get comfortable asking for that support? And I think that's one of the things if I was to go back and tell my younger self something else, it would be ask, because I think we wait. We're conditioned to wait and have our work recognize itself. I will tell you when I first, while this is my dream job now, I didn't get it on the first go around. So in an earlier round, when this role was available, I had put myself forward and I wasn't selected for the job, and I didn't at the time feel like I got particularly good feedback in terms of what could I do and what should I do differently to get the job the next time. It was really around executive presence was what I was told. I look back now, and I peel the onion on that and there's a whole bunch of things under executive presence that I actually now know built up to that one phrase. But if you tell someone you don't have enough executive presence, what do they do about that, right? So that aside, what I spent some time thinking about then is, like, how do I figure out what my next role is? And I knew I wanted a general manager country lead role. And so I made a list of people around the company that either I knew or that I admired or had roles that I thought were interesting. And I carved out a period of few minutes of every week to schedule these phone calls. And I phoned and I said, I'm looking for my next role. Here's what I'm interested in. I'm just seeking insight and perspective on anything you know about me, anything you know about what it takes to get these roles and what would be helpful. And can you recommend someone else I should talk to? I had never done anything like that before and it was actually very uncomfortable at the time. I now affectionately refer to it as my Sasha PR campaign. And I think everyone should do their own PR campaign at some point in their career. But it was a seminal moment because I got really good feedback that I was able to think about. If you ask 10 people, what does it take to be a country lead, you probably get 10 to 12 different answers. And then I could think about where do I fit into that? Do I have all 10? Do I have five? And that was actually how I got to my first country general management role. Leading the Nordics and the Baltics was because in one of my convos, I was in a meeting and someone came up to me and said, I hear you're looking for a new role. I have a couple that might be interesting. Can we talk? And I was like, Wow, that would have never happened if I hadn't put myself out there. And I put myself out there both with businesspeople and with HR colleagues, because I think the power in, and this is a piece of advice I would give to everyone, if you are looking for a new role, you've got to talk to the decision-makers in terms of the people who are leading the business or the function that you want to work with, but you also have to talk to the partners and their enablers so that, because people in HR often know about a role that's coming up even if it's not posted or they, you put, you get yourself on their radar, so when a role does come up, they're like, Hey, I just had a conversation with someone a few weeks ago maybe that could be an interesting connection. So that notion of casting your net wide I think is really helpful.
00:12:57 - 00:13:48
Diana Halder
I really love the tip about running a personal PR campaign that Sasha raised with us, but we do need to balance the frequency, message, and tone when running these campaigns. Let’s turn back to Sundeep. Sundeep distinguishes between skills development mentorships and career development mentorships and how each has played a different role at different stages of her career. Her approach sheds light on the adaptive nature of mentorships and its capacity to support personal rebranding, re-entering into the workplace, and long-term career planning. The key message here is having diverse mentorships is a win. Was there a sponsor or mentor that supported you in your career and what did they do for you?
00:13:48 - 00:16:31
Sundeep Bassi
I would say I've had many different mentors and types. The way I've approached mentorship is there's two types of mentorship models that I've kind of like pulled on for my career and specifically my career toolkit of how to move along and make my impact. One of the mentorship types is skill development focus. I would seek mentors if I'm going to a new company, going to a new role, they're skills that I just don't have. There's context I don't have. I would build a mentor relationship that could be a peer that would help me get up to speed. So that was, I would say, very skill-specific focused. The other type of mentor, which I think was one of the more important ones in my career, were around mentorship that came from individuals that had seen my work in the past. So they could have been past leaders, they could have been leaders that worked on projects with me and ones that I had built some sort of organic relationship with, those career development type mentorship relationships I had were completely sounding boards where I didn't want anyone that was directly in my business line that would kind of have a bias to my performance, give me feedback on how I should be approaching things related to my career. And so, these relationships were, you know, periodically at different moments of my career where I needed support on maybe building my personal brand as a woman. I have three kids. I've been on three different maternity leaves. I had to rebuild my brand multiple times. You leave, and if you're Canadian or if it’s mostly Canadian listeners, we have 12- to 18-month leaves. And so sometimes you come back to a team, and nobody knows who you are, and nobody's worked with you and you're like, Great, I have to start all over again. And after remind people who I am, what my brand is, and what I've accomplished in the past. Some of that like trickles over because you have consistent leaders or you have individuals that are at more senior levels that remember your impact, or there's people that are like waiting for you to come back because they're like, yes, I want her back on my team. But that was the tough part. And I used my mentorship relationships to really help me navigate some of that for the ones that were within the same organization I was at. How do I stay close to what's happening when I've left for a year, and I need to know what are the business priorities? What should I be focused on? Where do I want to come back to? Knowing that there's different priorities every year that are focused on. So, the mentor relationships were, they were just very helpful in helping me understand what I needed to do to stay close to the business in those years.
00:16:31 - 00:17:07
Diana Halder
When you are out of sight, you are out of mind. So, Sundeep’s advice ensures you, one, stay top of mind and two, keep your finger on the pulse of the company while you are away on a life event. Building on this theme of support and guidance, we now turn to Chris Manning, Executive Vice President at Scotiabank, who shares yet another piece of the professional development puzzle: the role of sponsorship. Chris manifests his sponsorship and advocacy into actual policy changes at the bank.
00:17:07 - 00:19:04
Chris Manning
I've taken on the role of executive champion of our parental advisory liaison program in the bank, which is part of our diversity equity and inclusion strategy. This program is specifically targeted at individuals in the organization that are preparing to take parental leave, that are on parental leave, or preparing to come back from parental leave. Typically, I think that's a very significant life event for any and any parent, regardless of the circumstances. And each of those stages of that process can be daunting. And it's something that has gone unspoken for a long time, certainly in our organization. And if I look back over the course of that 17 years and you talk about what's changed, I mean, at one point, you know, we effectively cut off employees on leave from access to the organization through no, you know, purpose. But what a missed opportunity for engagement with a cohort of individuals that are undergoing substantial life change. And so, as a part of the parental advisory program, we pair up again those on leave, those going on leave or preparing to return from leave with other mentors in the organization that have gone through similar experiences. If nothing else, for an informal check-in process, kind of unstructured, as they will, to keep a pulse on what's going on in the organization and how they might facilitate, again, the transition out while they're off and back into the organization. I would say that program has gone very well, in part because of its unstructured nature. We're pairing up people that are going through similar life changes. That one stands out for me as one that I've particularly championed because I'm a parent myself and I've just I've seen what it what it means to be, you know, out of the workforce for a period of time. And I've also seen, based on the pace of change in our industry, let alone in our organization, how much can change over a short period of time. And so remaining or maintaining that kind of activity is critical.
00:19:04 - 00:19:28
Diana Halder
Chris went on to tell me about the impact that being a sponsor has had on his own career, and how he measures success, not just through the traditional metrics, but through the growth and success of those he sponsors. I'd like to talk to you about what it means to be a sponsor, and what does it mean for you personally and professionally to be a sponsor?
00:19:28 - 00:20:46
Chris Manning
I think, you know, a lot of people will measure success in their career, in their role through various ways, whether that's, you know, promotions, whether that's quantitative aspects of, you know, compensation, significant achievements in projects or deliverables. For me, one of the things that, you know, stands out is being a sponsor and seeing success in others and helping and feeling like I've played a role in in the development of others. And that can be, you know, through sponsor relationships. It can be at scale or at large through. I mentioned policy changes and things that we've enacted across the organization. But when I think about being a sponsor, it's about just that it's rewarding in a way that, you know, can't be measured, or quantified in the traditional sense. It's not something to be taken lightly. And, you know, sponsorship is often confused with being a mentor. I think there's been a lot of discourse around the difference between those which we don't need to exhaust today. But there certainly is a distinction between them. And it's speaking up for people when they're not in the room. And I think the other thing that maybe goes unspoken about sponsorship is it can very much be a reciprocal relationship. It's a two-way street that can be equally as rewarding, if not more so, for sponsors.
00:20:46 - 00:20:57
Diana Halder
So, you mentioned sponsorship is a two-way street. Can you give me an example of a moment or moments in which you experienced that?
00:20:57 - 00:22:24
Chris Manning
I think when you're running a business, when you're managing a large team, I think the diversity of thought around, you know, your management table or the influences and influencers you have around you is important. It drives better business outcomes; it drives better decision-making. I think about my experience as a sponsor with proteges and gaining perspectives that I otherwise wouldn't have had outside the, you know, the more concrete construct of a management team and so on. And that resonates with me. And it has informed the way I think about composing management teams and who I surround myself with and where I garner ideas and inspiration. And so, I think that shows up across, you know, my experience, my decision-making, my leadership of a team. So, there's not one specific instance, but certainly it has and continues to reinforce for me that the perspectives from others across layers in the organization, across experiences and backgrounds, are critical to better business performance, better decision-making, and just frankly, you know, better team performance. So, I think of that very much as what I garner out of, you know, the reciprocal relationship of being a sponsor, not to mention the candidly, more selfish pride in seeing sponsors or proteges, I should say, succeed and seeing their progression in their careers and their personal lives and just seeing them grow as individuals.
00:22:24 - 00:22:47
Diana Halder
It is so great to see leaders like Chris putting their words into action. Frankly, a lesson for all of us. Now Kim shares with us her own evolution. She candidly talks about the shift in her perspective over the years, her discovery of a personal purpose and her commitment towards helping others achieve their potential.
00:22:47 - 00:25:36
Kim Lesley
I can't tell you how much personal joy, literally joy that I get from being able to be a sponsor and a mentor to other people. And it wasn't always this way. I will openly confess, and I talk about this when I do panels and such, when I was younger, coming up in my career as women were evolving in the business world, there was a tendency for women to really attack each other. And, you know, in the ‘80s, in the ‘90s, even into the 2000s, that was really the kind of a lot of the predominant women-to-women relationships were very frequently more toxic than they were supportive. And so, as I carried on in my career and aged got wiser, you know, you call it whatever you want to call it, more experienced, you know, it occurred to me that that's just not it's not a healthy way to live. And I want to break that down. That should not be part of the fabric anymore. If women can't support other women and men, I'm not saying this at the exclusion of men, but if women can't support other women, then we have a much bigger problem on our hands as women in the marketplace. So, I made it when I came back to EY, the best part when I first joined, I was working with my coach and, you know, it was all about filling out your brand. That was fairly easy for me, but your purpose, and nobody had ever asked me, What's your purpose? My purpose was I just I go, I do the job, I recover the projects because that's what I did for a lot of my career. And I deliver the outcome to the client. That was my purpose. That’s not a purpose. That's my, that's what I do. And so after a lot of soul searching with my coach and really doing and redoing and redoing the exercises he had me doing, I came up with my personal purpose, which, you know, I will share here, is really to provide opportunities for women to help them break through the glass ceiling and really, really be able to rise or raise, depending which way you want to look at, it to their potential. And it's not just women, as you pointed out. I do mentor a lot of men as well. But in doing so, and when I was hired on, one of the things that I was asked to do was actually mentor people. I was like, well, I could really do a lot with this. I'm coming to the end of my career. I've got a limited number of years in front of me left, and at this point in my life, I don't want to be known for, Wow, she did great SAP implementations. I want to leave a mark and a legacy that's perhaps a little bit more than that.
00:25:36 - 00:26:21
Diana Halder
I’m grateful that Kim highlighted the importance the women sponsoring women and the self-reflection that is needed to realize that maybe we need to do more for each other. Our conversations today have taken us through personal stories of growth, the transformative power of mentors, and the critical role of sponsors. We've heard about the importance of breaking down barriers and the joy that comes from helping others. Building on these themes, I turn back to Sasha with a question that many of our listeners might have: What advice does she have about self-advocacy and building strong professional networks?
00:26:21 - 00:27:12
Sasha Krstic
I would say I think there is an opportunity, as we've talked about, to trust yourself more, to ask for help, to advocate for ourselves, and to build a network of people who will help advocate for you. We talked about earlier around sponsors empowering you and giving you different opportunities. They also act as advocates for you. So finding those people who will be your voice in a room where you're not in, is really important. And they don't have to be a formal sponsor. They just have to, and I think that comes from the relationships that you build. We are outstanding at building relationships for the most part, and I think most women underscore the importance of those relationships in getting things done, in making things happen.
00:27:12 - 00:27:46
Diana Halder
I want to thank our guests for showing us a side of themselves that we don’t usually get to see. We learned of Sasha’s resilience in her career, of Chris’ actions for change, of Sundeep’s lessons in curiosity and finally in Kim’s sheer joy of mentorship. I hope you found our conversations engaging and their insights as energizing as I have. Thank you for joining us on Making Waves. Until next time.