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Ade Thomas:

Welcome to EV Y, the eMobility podcast that asks the bigger and better questions of the EV industry.

Thomas:

Hello and welcome back to the final episode in series one of EV Y, the podcast that asks the key questions in the eMobility sector. I'm your host, Thomas. In every episode, I'll be talking to expert guests to delve into the what, why, and how in the EV industry. Today's episode is all about accessibility. Demand for EVs is rapidly rising, but will upfront costs, lack of infrastructure, and an education gap mean some consumers will be left behind? Today, we're going to be looking at addressing those challenges and asking the question, how can we make EVs an accessible reality for everyone? To help answer that question, I'd like to introduce our guest speakers for today.

Thomas:

Firstly from EY, Peter Matthews. Peter is EY's UK&I Advanced Manufacturing & Mobility Leader. Peter's expertise lies in helping companies navigate the changing manufacturing and mobility landscape. And our featured guest is Daksh Gupta, the group chief executive of Marshall Motor Group, one of the fastest growing companies in the European automotive industry with a 2.5 billion a year turnover. Peter, Daksh, thank you so much for joining us today. To start off, I'd like to ask you both why you are in the eMobility sector. Peter, may I ask you first, what drew you into this exciting area?

Peter Matthews:

I have three daughters, the youngest of whom has been constantly on at me about the need to recycle everything and go green. I think she'd recycle me if she had half the chance to be quite honest. And I am absolutely passionate about the need for people to have mobility. That the problem is not people wanting to move around. That's what we all enjoy doing. It's the carbon that comes out of the vehicles when we're moving around. So I believe really passionately that we need to be able to move around, but we need to be able to do so in a low-carbon environment, hence why EVs have for me become something of a huge passion.

Thomas:

Thanks very much indeed for those opening thoughts there, Peter. And Daksh, what about you? Has EV been the natural progression for you in a changing automotive industry?

Daksh Gupta:

I mean, obviously, I've been in the industry 28 years. So as the industry has evolved and has been in more recent years moving towards electrification, I guess I've sort of seen my business evolve. And I guess a little bit like Peter as well, someone with three kids and my youngest is six and I feel I'm in a position where I can influence change within the sector. And I would hate for my six-year-old daughter to say to me in a few years time, "Daddy, you didn't do anything when you could and you could have made change within your organisation." So I'm quite excited about that. In fact, I've just taken delivery of my first electric car, which I'm sort of living with and getting to understand the challenges with that. But yeah, that's how I'm in the sector really, Ade, and involved in the transformation that we're going to see as an industry.

Thomas:

So let's move on to our main topic of discussion for today, ensuring EVs are accessible for everyone. Peter, what do you think are the main barriers to EV adoption from a consumer perspective?

Matthews:

Yeah. So I think all the research would say that there are a variety of different reasons why EV adoption could be slow. One is cost albeit recognising that certainly in the UK, the vast majority of vehicles are paid for monthly via PCPs. So personal contract plans. So I have to say now I think that's becoming less of an issue. It is a fact that it costs manufacturers more to make electric vehicles at this stage in the cycle. Over time, the cycle will mean batteries will get cheaper and you'll get cost parity between internal combustion engine and electric vehicles. But cost has historically been one area, but I think over time, that will become less important. The second reason is infrastructure. I think we're moving away from range anxiety, which you'll hear talked about a lot. The ranges on electric vehicles, Daksh, I have an electric vehicle and the range on that is somewhere around about 230, 240 miles. So perfectly decent range.

Matthews:

I think it's more about the charging infrastructure, and in particular, is there sufficient charging infrastructure across all parts of a country? And the reality is whilst it's in the hand of private providers, private providers will tend to go to the places where there are most electric vehicles. So if you take the UK, the UK 45% or so of all chargers are in London and the Southeast, 7% or so in the West Midlands, and the Northwest. So can you actually have access to infrastructure? I think that's really important. And then I think the other thing is... And I know this, Ade is part of the purpose of this is actually education for people. Like Daksh, I've grown up all my life on internal combustion engines and there's a lot of fallacies about electric vehicles, which is, "Oh, you'll never get anywhere in electric vehicle. They're potentially going to cause you problems in the cold. They're going to be really difficult to recharge. I don't like the idea if I don't live in a place where I've got home charging, I'm not sure it's for me."

Matthews:

And part of the industry's responsibility, I think, is to get out there and educate consumers that electric vehicles actually are pretty straightforward ownership proposition, but I think it's cost, it's less range now, and it's infrastructure. And I think if you focus on those three things, you'll do well.

Thomas:

Daksh, do you have anything to add? What have you seen from your work with consumers?

Gupta:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting if you look at what's happened in recent times, the Government's heavily incentivised. I mean, obviously, tax breaks does historically drive behaviour. I was in Norway two and a half years ago just trying to understand the market. Then if you look there, can't remember the exact stats off the top of my head, but it was about 60%. But the Norwegians were seeing huge benefits on driving EV vehicles there. You can drive in bus lanes, you don't have to pay for parking anywhere. There's no congestion charge. The tax breaks are significant. So that's one of the reasons why it's driven such a huge take up there. But, of course, they've got different benefits there as well in terms of the powertrain recharging capability over there because of their hydroelectric strategy that they have over there. So hence why the Government's promoted it to them.

Gupta:

I think in terms of the UK, I think some of my observations would be I think the Government has, for example, at times tried to incentivise, but then have then more laterally with very little notice taken some of these incentives also. I know there was a lot of disappointment earlier in the year when they removed subsidies at literally 24 hours’ notice which was not great because we had to then go and tell customers who had previously thought they were going to get this, that the Government had removed this. So I think it will come. I think if you look at penetration today, it's 15% year to date in terms of battery electric vehicle registrations in this country, which is I think probably far higher than anybody had ever forecasted or predicted. But I do think awareness of climate change and sustainability is far higher than it's ever been. And I think that has really got momentum now. I really do believe that.

Gupta:

I do also agree with everything that Peter said around the historic challenge has been range anxiety, but it is now charge anxiety. And like Peter, I've got a car that will do around 250 miles, but I'm due to go to a meeting in Gloucester. And from where I live in Harpenden to Gloucester, it is 120 miles. So I'm a little anxious about, will I make that journey or not? So I still haven't quite decided what I'm going to do. I'll probably try and find somewhere I can stop on route, but obviously that will take up time during my day.

Gupta:

I think it will continue to increase. I think the acceptance of being seen to drive an electric vehicle is also very positive. I could see a situation where in future years, you will almost be seen as a sort of pride driving electric vehicle. It's a bit like what's happened in supermarkets with buying carrier bags. I mean, I feel really bad if I forget to take recycling bags, but I'm not sure people can relate to that. And I think that will happen far sooner than we think with electric vehicles. But I think all of these combination of factors will really make a continued improvement in terms of the penetration in this country. And there's a lot of excitement and a lot of interest. And if anyone's driven electric vehicle, it's not the perception that people had a few years ago of maybe not the best styled cars or the cars that didn't have the range or maybe didn't have the best driving experience or the best performance. I mean, for those reasons, I think we are going to see a lot more interest.

Thomas:

Thanks, Daksh. As a sustainability person more than an automotive person, it's music to my ears to hear you talking about sustainability as a primary driver of the shift to eMobility. Peter, do you think that sustainability piece is a key driver on the shift to eMobility?

Matthews:

I think it's absolutely huge. And I think Daksh and I have lived through a generation where we were all encouraged to buy diesels, and all of a sudden, diesel becomes something you don't buy. And there's nothing wrong with some of the new diesels, the EU6 diesels. I'm not an engineer, but those people who are in engineers will say, "Actually, there's a lot of good things in those diesels," but the reality is that diesel vehicles now are nowhere near as popular as they once were. And I think you have ultimately, Ade, in the sector and in life, you have ground swells. And Daksh is absolutely right about how people are viewed according to the vehicles that they're driving. And I think we will see very, very quickly, we will see two things happen. I think the generation coming behind Daksh and I, I think they will immediately say, "Well, we'd never consider anything other than electric vehicle." I think that will be their generation.

Matthews:

And for Daksh and I, both of us have clearly made the change in the last few months. I think there will be an element with our children or our children's children potentially going forward, will say, "Well, what are you doing driving an internal combustion engine of sort?" So I think societal sentiment, I think, will play a significant role here and we've seen it with diesels. I'm sure we'll see it with electric vehicles as well. And I think just to pick up on the other point that Daksh makes, which I think is a really important point, is if you really want to drive electric vehicles quicker in the UK, I do think that it will be helpful to see a little bit more government intervention.

Matthews:

So if you take the fact is electric vehicles right now, as I said earlier, they are more expensive to produce than internal combustion engines. So only one of three people are going to pay for the fact they're more expensive. The government in the form of subsidies, the consumer in the form of high prices, or the manufacturers in terms of reduced profit margins. They're the only three people who can pay. And I think given this government and indeed many governments around the world saying, "We want to accelerate transition," automobiles are such a strong visual indication about the need to decarbonise. I potentially think that around the world, not just in the UK, I think more potentially can be done to accelerate that transition.

Thomas:

I mean, I think our government's done a pretty good job introducing a ban on combustion engines by 2030. Peter, what other things are you thinking should be done by the UK government?

Matthews:

Well, I think the reality is, Ade, it's not a ban on internal combustion engines. It's a ban on internal combustion engines only because hybrids will still be able to be sold. And the reality is that many hybrids are not plugged in as well as they should be. And clearly, a number of hybrids will be used for long journeys at which point the battery will run out and the internal combustion engine kicks in. So I do think that's a powerful start, but as I say, I think the reality is that we are, as Daksh said earlier, we are all influenced by subsidies, by tax breaks, by behaviours that government can encourage us to adopt what will be called in government terms nudge theory. And I do think that there is more that can be done and Daksh has talked about some of what's happened in a way.

Matthews:

Yeah. I think actual subsidies for the vehicle either in the form of low PCP contributions or alternatively in terms of prices. I mean, the two will link in. I think it's really good there's no road tax on EV, so I think that's good, but allow people to do bus lanes. Make their day life easier, give them opportunities to potentially in time have their own lanes on either dual carriageways or motorways. I think there's a law in nudge behaviour governments can do that would really accelerate uptake because if people look at the ownership of an electric vehicle and say, "Wow, I'm getting some real benefits," it's just easier for my day drive. I think that's really important.

Thomas:

Daksh, you've talked about some mixed messages coming from UK government. What's your take on that?

Gupta:

Well, I think it just really points to the... I mean, Peter referred to diesel. I mean, diesel's a really good example. 25 years ago, I can't remember the exact penetration, but diesel penetration was certainly sub-10% from memory. And government said, "Let's go diesel," and incentivised diesel with tax breaks. And everyone bought diesel cars. And we were told that was going to be the right thing to do. And diesel sales over a 10-year period went from sub-10% to over 51% at a peak. And then of course, what we've now seen is it's now reversed the other way which is a real shame actually because, again, I'm not an engineer, but my understanding is that today's Euro 6 engine are very, very good and very clean and actually could have been a good stepping stone towards the reduction of emissions.

Gupta:

But if you look at where diesel is today, it's 6%. I mean, it just shows you how fast perception can change. And I was just looking how... I've got my notes from when I visited Norway. I mean, Norway, the government literally was putting in significant up to £20,000 subsidies to drive electric vehicles, plus all the incentives around tax breaks, charging. So that does drive a behaviour, but then when you look at what happened this year and there were government subsidies and support payments for people to take electric vehicles with no notice at all that that was removed. And that's where you kind of think, "Okay, how's that going to help incentivise and convince people to buy more electric vehicles?"

Gupta:

So I'm not being critical of the government. We've got lots of issues in terms of budgets, but if we want to be a country that's going to basically get to 2030, then whatever we can do as a country, we should be grateful if the government can support and incentivise us to buy those vehicles. Yeah. I think your point that you've raised there, Peter, on the government's incentives is interesting because on company cars now, on electric vehicles, they have now put a 1% charge on that for taxation. And I guess one of the challenges that the chancellor is going to have is how is he going to replace the significant income that they make in terms of fuel duty?

Matthews:

Huge, Daksh. Absolutely right.

Gupta:

If you've got 50% less new vehicles being registered that are internal combustion driven, then of course that has an impact on fuel duty income for the HMRC. So they have now just introduced a 1% levy on electric vehicles. So given that over time by 2030, that will be a significant hole in the country's budget. Will we see a situation? And I think it's very likely that over time, you will see taxation coming on electric vehicles. So these are the things that I think remain a little bit unanswered and we probably need clarity on.

Matthews:

The other thing, Ade, I think that the government could look at doing and like Daksh, I think it's a desperately difficult job because there's so many competing priorities. But I do worry a little bit about the fact that if infrastructure is left in the hands of private operators, they are going to go where the most electric vehicles are. They will be market-led as any of us would be. And I worry a little bit about what that will mean for having a national rollout of infrastructure. And if you pick up the point that both Daksh and I have made, which is about you've got less range anxiety and more charge anxiety, the real challenge will be, "Well, if a private provider decides it's not worth putting in," and I'm not going to name a part of the country, but in a particular part of the country, it's not really worth putting in chargers, then all of a sudden, that part of the country, if people haven't got and we know many people don't have home charging, that then becomes a really difficult place for EVs to gain adoption. And I think there may need to be some interventions that government will need to do over time to make sure that you don't have a very patchy take up by geography of electric vehicles.

Thomas:

Well, perhaps the good news is the Johnson administration does seem to be quite an old-fashioned Keynesian government with some pretty interesting policies around government intervention. So let's see if that message gets through, Peter. Can we move on to the notion of cost now then? So we're looking firmly at accessibility in this podcast and cost is still an issue for many people, or is it? I think, Daksh, you've got some thoughts on the fact that we're moving away from ownership, pure ownership, and PCP models are really the order of the day with take up of new vehicles. Daksh, what's your sense of that side of things?

Gupta:

Yeah. I mean, the reality is nobody is buying new cars today and they haven't been for many, many years now. I mean, the take up of PCPs on new cars today is 83%. So the remaining 17 also do take higher purchase, but overwhelming as you can see with that number, the vast majority of customers are buying on leases, which I look at that and almost liken it to a subscription because you're effectively paying a monthly payment for the use of that vehicle and you don't actually own that vehicle. You hand it back in three years time when the vehicle comes up to the end of its lease.

Gupta:

So consumers are used to buying this in this way, and they have been since this sort of phenomenon has really taken off in the last decade. And you can see that with the number of people who are buying on monthly payments, and it's actually... The FCA said it's a good product. I think it's a great product because it enables consumers to have access to a far newer vehicle, which then ultimately drives emissions down as well. Manufacturers are very, very good at retaining those customers in terms of when those vehicles come to the end of their contracts, and then they're putting on second PCPs as well. So I think the model's very much changed as a result of the prevalence of PCP. And ultimately what the PCP does enable you to do is have accessibility to a more expensive car because of course there's a balloon at the end.

Gupta:

So whilst if you look at the actual headline transactional price of the electric vehicle, yes, they are more expensive, but when you actually look at it on a PCP, actually the monthly payments are not that much more than a conventional internal combustion engine. We are the largest partner for Volkswagen group in the UK. We have 26 Volkswagen car and commercial vehicle operations across the UK. And some months, we're doing 15%, 16% of all of the Volkswagens in the UK. So we've got a pretty good understanding of what's happening with cars such as ID.3, ID.4. And it's interesting when you look at the price of those vehicles, they're not that much more expensive than what a traditional Golf would be. And if you look at it on the cost in terms of PCP, again, there's not that much difference in terms of monthly payments on those vehicles.

Gupta:

I think the other benefit which is quite interesting, a number of my friends and family have gone electric. And actually when you factor in the cost savings on fuel, actually, it is very, very accessible. And actually, you're finding it's probably more cheaper to go with an electric vehicle because the savings that you're making on things like road tax and on fuel, actually, it is more affordable than people actually think today because it's very easy to look at a headline price and think, "That's a lot of money," but actually that's not the reality of what is happening in terms of the way that manufacturers are incentivising vehicles and the accessibility that people have to these products through products such as PCP.

Gupta:

I think the other thing that's worth talking about as well is manufacturers are very, very heavily incentivising consumers through products such as low rate finance, free service plans, et cetera. The big acquisition we did three weeks ago made us the second-largest partner in UK for Toyota and Lexus, and it's amazing. They now do a 10-year warranty for all of the new cars, which I think is incredible absolutely which is transferable through the life cycle of the vehicle. And that just shows you how focused OEMs are on retention, how they're using these products to keep customers within their brands. And ultimately what's driving that is also their long-term commitments around sustainability and meeting their emissions targets.

Gupta:

And of course, yes, those manufacturers have got a significant financial incentive to ensure they hit those targets because if they don't, they will be fined €100 for every CO₂... every gram that they are over the emissions targets that have been set, which came into effect last year. So OEMs had to hit an average of 95 grams as an average across their fleet across Europe. And many of OEMs hit that target. The next step-down will be in 2025 and that will reduce to 79 grams. And if you look at the long-term reduction that OEMs have done, it's been typically running over the last 20 years at one gram per year. So you can see very quickly to go from 95 to 79, if you take the historic run rate, is going to be a challenge. Therefore, the only way that they can achieve those targets is by the use of electrification. So they're clearly very focused on that given those fines could run into the hundreds and hundreds of millions for them, and that legislation is driving that behaviour, but equally, because they are wanting to make sure that they don't miss those targets, they are putting very, very attractive offers. And as a result of that, it comes back to the point that it is far more accessible than people may first think when they're looking at headline price.

Thomas:

You took the words right out of my mouth in terms of follow-up. I am a subscriber to an ID.3, and I look at that whole cost piece in terms of the savings on fuel. Peter, what's your take on the cost side of things?

Matthews:

Well, I think that you both made really good points about hidden costs of internal combustion engine. And this is part of the education, I think, Ade. It's fuel right now, diesel, petrol for internal combustion engines. We still have an internal combustion engine vehicle. And every time that is filled up, goodness me, it's expensive. And the reality is that even if you were to use public charging infrastructure, fully charging an electric vehicle is going to be nowhere near close to that. So over a period of time, you are saving what I would call very obvious costs, which is the fuel. But then as Daksh has rightly said, there's all kinds of other tax incentives that go with it. And I think if you were to do, as I've done, the comparison between my electric vehicle and the equivalent internal combustion engine, I am absolutely sure that I'm ahead.

Matthews:

And to Dash's point, I think because so many vehicles are paid for on PCPs, it's a very different psychology in the buying process. Now this is obviously Daksh's area of expertise because he runs one of the UK's biggest groups. But when you are actually having a conversation at point of sale, it's a very different conversation to say, "Mr. Matthews, this will cost you," I'm picking a number here, Ade, "It'll cost you £5,000 more to buy this vehicle as an electric vehicle with an internal combustion engine, to, it might cost you £25, £30 extra over the life of a PCP." Very different emotional conversation. And the costs are going to come down all the time, Ade, because if you look at the root cause of why are electric vehicles more expensive is because it is more expensive to put a battery in a car than internal combustion engine. It just is. But we're seeing increasingly the costs of batteries coming down, and it won't take us long and you can pick different timeframes, but it's certainly within the next five years, I would suggest, that you'll have the cost of an internal combustion engine and the cost of a battery are broadly similar. At which point the manufacturing costs are very, very similar and that cost differential will go away.

Matthews:

So right now, you do it through a combination of incentives. You do it through tax breaks. As Daksh says, you do it through monthly payments, but I think that's short term. And I also think that the culture that is happening around the world, by the way, in different places quicker than others, which is actually, do you know what? It's right to pay a little bit extra to make sure that I'm not polluting the environment. And am I prepared to pay a small amount of money for something that is let's use the colloquium greener? Yes, I will. And we've seen this in other sectors. Are people prepared to pay if they've got the money? And I do appreciate there's an element here of disposable income that comes into play, but will people pay for organic versus not organic? The data says that they will.

Matthews:

So I'm very confident that cost is not going to be a barrier going forward. And part of the role, I think, of people like me, Daksh, Ade, you, others in the sector is just make sure people are making the right cost comparisons because I'm not sure they always are. I think we've got to recognise, Ade, we are in relatively early stages, 15%, which is still a really good number here in the UK. But a lot of the barriers that we've talked about on this podcast about stopping people from getting into electric vehicles are going to disappear really quickly. And my own view and the EY view is that we have historically underrepresented in our forecasts the amount of EVs that will be on our roads going forward. We think that the way is started now and innovations like Daksh has just talked and public sentiment are going to move us very quickly. So if you were to look back even two years ago when people were saying, "Well, what would the percent of electric vehicles on our roads by 2025 be?" We think that's well undercut that. We think the momentum is in favour of electric vehicles.

Thomas:

I personally think the Osborne effect may well have kicked in that people are thinking, "I'm just not going to buy yesterday's technology. I'm going to buy tomorrow's technology." And thank you, Peter, for opening up the idea of why it's still useful to have a combustion engine car to give you that sense of comparative relative cost advantage for actually having an electric car. Let's talk about the charging infrastructure side. I mean, we always have to talk about infrastructure when we're having these kinds of conversations. I think we've already alluded to the fact that numbers are one issue. We need more charge points installed, but perhaps the bigger issue is operational anxiety rather than range anxiety thinking, 'Will I get to a charge point, but will it actually work?" What are your views on that, Peter?

Matthews:

Yes. So I think the reality is some of the data around the percentage of UK charging points out of order is actually not great. There are a lot of charging points out of order at any one stage. So there's something which says we're at work, and this is why it's so important that charging infrastructure gets really motoring if you pardon the pun is as the number of electric vehicles on the road goes up, then the chances of you turning up at as Daksh may have to do or the public charger on his way from Harpenden to Gloucester and finding somebody or two or three people have just plugged their vehicles in is going to increase. And of course at that point, you are not just looking at pick a number, half an hour, 45 minutes, depending on what your charging cycle's going to be for you to plug in, which many of us would say, "Okay, I'll go and get a cup of coffee. I'm okay with that."

Matthews:

But if someone's only just started charging, you might have to wait 45 minutes for them and then 45 minutes for yourself and that's potentially an hour and a half. So I think there's two bits. One is, can we make sure the charging points are operationally sound and get better maintenance of them, better leadership from some of the providers to make sure there's fewer, if you like, malfunctions of the chargers, but equally the need and the drive to build out the charging infrastructure quick is going to increase as we drive up EV adoption because what you don't want is people to get EVs and then to be telling their friends, "Oh, well, I got an EV, but whenever I need to charge, I've got a problem."

Thomas:

What's your sense on that operational anxiety side, Daksh?

Gupta:

Yeah, I can completely agree. I mean, I've got to say as someone who's just gone EV, I'm still trying to live with it. And I think Peter will probably relate to this, and in fact as can you, Ade, with your car, I haven't charged my car anywhere other than home. And part of that is because I'm a little anxious if I'm honest with you, even though I've got a car that will do 250 miles, and I've had only two instances so far where I was in Kent visiting a number of our businesses a couple of weeks ago. And the hotel I was staying at, which was in Tunbridge Wells, they had two charges, one was connected and the other one wasn't working. So I was thinking, "Well, what am I going to do?" And I had to get all the way around the M25 and I had nine miles left before I could get home.

Gupta:

So that's the biggest challenge. And because I do worry... if I think about place I go to on a fairly regular basis, which is down the M3 at Fleet services, if anyone's been there and you've seen these big row of Tesla charging points, I've been going on those services for the last three or four years. And it's been out of action for three years. And I guess that's the biggest challenge that people worry about is, are you going to be stuck? And what do you do? I was talking to somebody else the other day where they said they had to wait an hour and a half for somebody to come off the charging station. I said, "Well, what did you do?" They said they worked, but they said they much rather be working at home rather than sat in their car.

Gupta:

So I think this will take some time, but again, as we said, as technology moves on, as we see further infrastructure going on, I think that will get easier as people get more comfortable with it. And as charging times accelerate, if you think, we are putting into... I mean, we've spent so far somewhere in the range around £6 to £7 million putting in electrification infrastructure into our operations. And some of the high power charging that we're putting into some of our, for example, Volvo operations right now, which will be something we'll have standard in all of our locations, it's costing £300,000 to £400,000 to put in one because you want a much higher capacity of charging available to our customers. But secondly, to have the right number of points, and of course, in some cases, you can't get the right power to the business. So I think this will all evolve over time, but certainly in the short-term, it's something that we've just all got to get used to really.

Thomas:

To finish off on geography, Peter, what are your thoughts on urban and rural divides, north/south divides in terms of charging infrastructure take up EV ownership? Have you done any analysis on that side of things over at EY?

Matthews:

We have. And I think unsurprisingly, when it is in the private sector that's providing the charges, you are going to see a market-driven approach. So if you take the research, the research says that about 45% of all chargers, public charges in the UK, are located in the London and Southeast. And that's a significant number particularly when I say that somewhere in the West Midlands is 7%, the Northwest is 7%. That's a very, very marked difference. And given that we know that one of the challenges for EV ownership is that many people in the UK cannot charge like Daksh and I can at home, and they are reliant on public infrastructure. I think that is one of the significant things that the EV industry is going to have to adopt. It's not surprising that when charging infrastructure is in the hands of public companies, they are going to want to say, "We will go where we think those charging infrastructure will be used most regularly, where we will get the best return on our capital." Of course.

Matthews:

But the danger then as you allude to is that you'll end up in a place where currently there are fewer electric vehicles and therefore the return on the capital investment, Daksh talked about it earlier, of installing the charges might be less. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then if you don't have the infrastructure, people are going to be much less likely to go and buy an electric vehicle because they'll turn that and say, "If they haven't got home charge," and they'll say, "Oh, in this town, West Midlands, Northwest, two places I've picked, there's only two or three chargers, and they're always busy," and that will stop people from wanting to buy the vehicles. And it'll be that. Not cost, not range anxiety, it'll be charge anxiety and it'll stop it.

Matthews:

So I do think it's very important that the sector, with I suspect some government intervention says, "We do not want this to be a sector that is dependent on where in the country you live," and right now, the evidence is not positive in that regard simply because at the early stages, you have so many of the public charging points located in the south and in London.

Thomas:

Peter, Daksh, thank you so much for that super insightful journey through the challenges and the opportunities around accessibility and eMobility. Really, really insightful discussion. So thank you very much to both of you.

Thomas:

To end every episode, we usually highlight a fast growth company in the sector, but today is a little different as this is the final episode in the series. We're looking at what fast growing companies in a super fast growing sector can do to make sure that no one is left behind in the transition to EV. To talk us through this, I'm delighted to be joined by Marris, Head of Innovation at Motability. Catherine, can you talk a little bit about your work in EV and what companies in the sector need to do to ensure EVs are inclusive and accessible?

Catherine Marris:

Absolutely. So Motability is a national disability charity that believes no person should be disadvantaged due to poor access to transportation. We've been working in the space of electric vehicles and accessibility for about a year and a half now focusing specifically on public charging. We did research with Ricardo Consulting, which highlights there will be 2.7 million disabled drivers or passengers in the UK by 2035 with up to half, so nearly 1.4 million people dependent on public charging because they're unable to charge at home. For us, this is really concerning because we know there are a lot of challenges with current public charge points. High curbs, heavy cables, connectors which require a lot of force to attach, confusing interfaces, all of these can prevent people from making the transition to electric vehicles. And fundamentally, we won't have a successful transition unless everyone can participate.

Marris:

We're partnering with government, so with the Office of Zero Emissions Vehicles to sponsor national accessible charging standards. Through the standards, we're going to set a minimum level of accessibility across all UK public charge points so that everyone can access the transition to EVs. It's quite an exciting project because no other country in the world has ever set accessible charging standards before. So we've actually had a lot of interest from other countries, other companies saying, "Wow, there's so much UK leadership in this space of accessibility and public charging."

Thomas:

Thanks very much indeed, Catherine, for that opening gambit. I think you and I began chatting around a year ago when I broke my leg quite badly and all of a sudden features like very heavy cables are really difficult to manoeuvre. So can you give us a sense of that sort of lived experience of disability issues that people experience with charge points?

Marris:

Absolutely. So we've been doing some extensive user engagement with another charity called Designability where we met disabled people with different kinds of impairments and health conditions all across the UK and had them try out different kinds of public charging infrastructure. These challenges that people experience could be anything from a wheelchair user going over to a charge point and realising that it's up on a high curb. And if they try and get up onto the high curb, there's not enough space around the charge points. They end up falling off the curb when they're trying to add access the charge point. It could also be something like a partially sighted pedestrian. It's not even someone who's going to drive or be a passenger, but they're going down the street and information about public charge points being installed in that street hasn't been widely shared. And so they end up bumping into infrastructure and injuring themselves.

Marris:

There's also some accessibility issues that cross over with other agendas. So a lot of public charge points at the moment are in far away areas of car parks, in areas that are quite dark with not a lot of lighting or CCTV. This raises concerns for safety not just for disabled people but for women as well. So I think accessibility, we just need to think about it much more broadly if we design charging infrastructure inclusively from the start. That's a much more positive experience for disabled drivers, passengers, and pedestrians, but also people more broadly, parents with prams, older people. A lot of us will need to make this transition. We might have slightly different requirements when it comes to charging.

Thomas:

So we've talked about a shift from range anxiety to operational anxiety. So I guess a lot of the conversations you have with charge point providers are that as you've just outlined there, that if you make these charger s accessible to disabled people, you're going a very, very long way to making them accessible to a wider audience.

Marris:

Absolutely. We've had some pretty positive engagement with industry and with charge point providers in particular so far where we make the point that actually if you design inclusively from the start, not only will you be able to access the one in five consumers in the UK who are disabled, but more broadly, a lot more people want to use your charge points. I think there's also a commercial case to this, not just a social case. We know that retrofitting charge points is really expensive. It's quite costly infrastructure at the moment. So imagine a scenario in which right now, you implement inaccessible infrastructure and then we get to 2030, 2035, you realise you want to change something because you need to have more consumers be attracted to your charge points. And then it's really expensive to rip up that infrastructure and have to design it from the start again. So I actually think it's quite an exciting time now because we've got an opportunity to do this from the start rather than trying to fix things later on.

Thomas:

So we discussed a lot around the issues. Can we discuss some of the features that make chargers more accessible? I know you worked recently on a new UK government-supported project for a design of a new charging infrastructure post. Can you tell us about some of the features that these charge points have to make them more accessible?

Marris:

So we think there's a number of small practical changes that can be made to enable accessibility for public charge points. So for example, one thing we talk about a lot is really high curbs. If you require within a certain distance that a curb has to be dropped, or you look at level access, and that can be really positive from an accessibility perspective. If you look at charge point height, sometimes there are chargers that are very low to the ground to try and reduce street clutter or chargers that are very high because there's a lot of infrastructure that's being kept above ground. Actually, you should be looking at chargers that are kind of within that exact high percentile that a seated female wheelchair user could be able to reach it, but also average man standing up wouldn't have to bend down to low to reach it. And there's a lot of charge points looking at that and implementing those design features.

Marris:

I think consistency and clarity is also something that we need to look at. So a lot of charge points right now, it's not clear. Do you pay first or do you plug in and then you pay after? What are the steps to charge? If you actually had a consistent experience across charge points, that would make it a lot easier for people going to different charge points to recognise, "Oh, this is exactly what I need to do." So you might not have always thought about that from an accessibility perspective, but it does go a long way to making things accessible.

Marris:

One thing we talk about a lot is the cables and how heavy they can be. So looking at cables above a certain weight mandating a cable management system. So an arm, for example. We've seen a lot of those, quite interesting, that can take the weight off and make the cable easier to navigate into the charging port. I also think longer cables, generally a lot of time, you park, you realise your charging port's on the wrong side of the car. If you're not a disabled person, you can just get back in, drive out, reverse around. But if you're someone who drives from a wheelchair or you've got mobility aid, having to get in and then move your vehicle to try and figure out the right placement of charging port to charge point is really difficult. So having a cable that can go around the vehicle can help with that as well.

Thomas:

Interesting stuff. And thinking about the cars themselves, obviously, there's a really, really exciting moment here as well for new electric vehicles to look at design for accessibility. Do vehicles need to be designed for needs, not just speeds?

Marris:

I think that's a really great point. I think that at the moment, vehicle design, there's such an opportunity for innovation. We're completely rethinking infrastructure. Why not have a look at vehicle design as well? We know that there might be some potential challenges with the way current EVs are designed for accessibility. So thinking about the fact that if you want to convert a vehicle to be a wheelchair accessible vehicle, you often have to take out the floor. And at the moment, a lot of batteries for EVs are in the floor. So that immediately is kind of a bit of an engineering problem that we need to think about as an industry and maybe support the converters industry to look at and then try and solve. But in the long term, I think there is this piece around, could we be more inspirational and aspirational around why vehicles are made in the way that they're made? And as you said, do it for need rather than speed.

Thomas:

Are there any EVs or OEMs who are doing a particularly good job in designing for a wider community of people?

Marris:

I don't think we've had enough chance to look at it in great detail yet, but I do think there's some really exciting companies out there that look kind of just at that EVs. And I think building from that ground up rather than saying, "We're going to take an existing vehicle design and just transfer it then to an EV," rather than actually looking from the beginning, how can we completely redesign that user journey? I think that could be quite exciting.

Thomas:

So from your perspective at Motability, it's the case that the transition is going to be successful if everyone can take part in it. Is that right?

Marris:

Absolutely. I think that from a government perspective, from an industry perspective, from the individual consumer perspective, we can't tackle climate change, we can't reduce emissions unless everyone feels like they're able to take part in this great challenge. And that's why we're so focused on accessibility in this transition.

Thomas:

Super. Catherine, thanks very much indeed for those really, really interesting insights into how we make EV accessible for everyone.

Marris:

Thank you. And again, if there are any companies or interested consumers listening that want to get in touch, please reach out to Motability. Happy to have a conversation about the ways in which you can support an accessible transition.

Thomas:

Absolutely. Thank you very much indeed. So that's it for episode six of EV Y, the final episode in this series. Thank you for joining us today. And if you've missed any of the previous episodes, do go back and listen. We've had some fantastic discussions on charging infrastructure, fleets, the EV ecosystem, batteries, and investment. Many thanks to all of our excellent guests who have joined us across the series, and thank you to our listeners for your support. Goodbye for now.

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