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Michael Costello

Welcome back to the Think People Podcast with me, Michael Costello. And let's provide an Olympic welcome as this episode's guest captures, not only the dedication, belief, focus, and care it takes to achieve success in sport, he also draws on three decades in business that can guide us on what it takes to lead others in the modern era. That is, of course, our very own Olympic gold medallist, world record breaker and managing partner at EY Lane4, Adrian Moorhouse. We start by exploring what he thinks leaders need to do to contend with so many global trends impacting organisations today. The lessons we can take from his early career in sport and what it took to build a successful business lasting three decades to the present day. 

We moved on to Adrian's take on the paradoxical mindsets developed by EY Lane4’s head of research, Amy Walters Cohen, each of which are critical to ensuring leaders are future fit for their environment. This helped unpack the tensions that leaders face between balancing ambition and wellbeing, protecting your organisation and taking risks, making tough decisions whilst remaining compassionate. Ultimately, this led to Adrian sharing his hopes on what his leadership legacy will be at EY Lane4. 

So far we've explored deep purpose cultures, we've explored love at work. Now we move on to the challenges and fulfilment that comes with leadership. We hope you're enjoying the series so far. If so, please remember to share the podcast, comment on our posts, and write a review. For now, sit back, relax, grab your goggles and enjoy episode three. 

Today I have the pleasure of having time with a leader who is not just an Olympic legend but has been at the steering helm of EY Lane4, and its ship for many years, steering the organisation through an ever-changing current. And that is Adrian Moorhouse. 

Adrian, welcome to the Think People Podcast. 

Adrian Moorhouse

Yeah, hi, thanks Michael. Good to be here.

Costello

I don't think I've ever interviewed my own boss. Um, any advice that you can give me before we make a start? 

Moorhouse

Nothing will go wrong, Michael, whatever you do will be perfect and hopefully you know me well enough, the boss doesn't sort of – you know, what does that connotate, you know, it doesn't mean anything, anything fearful, I hope. 

Costello

Absolutely right. Well, look, we're here to talk about business in a modern era. We're here to talk about leadership mindsets. So let's start with that. We are in a climate that is unprecedented in terms of economic challenges. We've got opportunities around sustainability in the environment, increasing power of tech, ever shifting societal change, and a turbulent political landscape. So from, from your perspective, what are the challenges right now for, for you in terms of leading in a modern era? 

Moorhouse

Uh, well, it's interesting actually, when I listen to you sort of list things that are happening. Um, the, the challenge is, is, is finding peace and quiet within the noise, frankly. Because I think there is, there is noise and there has always been a lot of things going on. You know, the technological revolution. You know, I, I started and lived through the, the first Macintosh computer, right? Um, and so I think the disruption has been there. Yeah, there's an argument and commentators talk about it gathering a pace. And there's a lot of things. But I actually think the noise and the ability to share information is gathering the pace and therefore how we tune in or tune out of that is probably the biggest challenge. Rather than sort of thinking there's a lot going on. I think there's always been a lot going on. The question is how much attention do you pay to it and where do you get your space to create time to think. You know, of all those things we list, if I think about the last three decades I've been in business, there's always, you know, a version of each of those things. 

Costello

Often in workshops we'll discuss the controllables, the uncontrollables. I'll often defer to, to Steven Covey, what can we control? What can we influence? What do we have to accept that, that's outside of our control? So therefore, are you saying that the change is constant, that disruption is always going to be constant, but the, the what to master is to, is that that focus? And, and if so, how, how have you done that over the years? 

Moorhouse

Well, it's interesting because I think the control the controllables piece, I was introduced to it there was a sport, you know, sport psychologist I worked with many years and I've been a massive fan from the age of 18 when almost like the industry, the six, the, um, specialism first started in sport in 1982. Yes, I am that old. And, and actually starting to think about when you walk into an environment like an Olympic environment, there are things you can control and things you can't control. So therefore, you know, getting not freaking out, understanding perspective and understanding how you can create space around decisions you might make has, has been fundamental to my whole life actually. And, and I think it'll be a thread that runs through this. So I am aware and I am connected to the, the modern, if you like, the here, right here, right now, this sort of context I am in. 

And I, as a human being am in, I as a father am in, I as a businessman am in, you know, there's a whole bunch of my identity that I existed within this. So I’m, so the way I react to it and the way I find space to either think about it or react, react if I need to react or actually let it pass me by is quite important. And it's that space, I think that's quite, I think people are getting consumed, you know, they consume information voraciously and I think often it's not helpful. 

Costello

So, the messages for the modern era - slow down, time to reflect, work out what can be controlled, what, what can't be controlled. And then, and then what, what's the next step after, after that? 

Moorhouse

Well, I think you've gotta, you've gotta make some moves, haven't you? Cause otherwise you're sitting inertia, you’re kind of bobbing, bobbing around the surface. If we’re gonna use the metaphor of the, the waves. So you're in there, but the question is, yeah, what can you control, then you're into what can you control and what do you want to do something about? And so actually, how do you use this? And for me, ever the optimist, you know, how can I use this to support what I, or we are trying to do. But I think also, yeah, with empathy and humility, I guess. 

And that's another piece that'll run through this conversation probably because it isn't great for quite a lot of people, you know, and, but you can't assume it's not great for everybody sort of thing. So there's something about how do you navigate your various audiences and how do you interact and engage? And I think ultimately there's the two things are, you know, no self, no other, there's almost like your self-awareness is critical and self-regulation if you're gonna manage yourself through this stuff. But also the acceptance, understanding of others, and appreciation. 

Costello

In training, you had an incredible coach, Terry, who had huge belief in your potential. And I'm, I'm sure to, to survive, navigate and adapt in a modern era in businesses we, we need leaders to, to do that. Tell us more about Terry and, and how he actually managed to inspire a belief to, to incredible success further down the line. 

Moorhouse

No, it's an interesting one because, um, you're believing in the potential of somebody. Unconditional belief is a very interesting place to be, um, when you can judge people and there is data to judge people and there are behaviours that you might judge people against them. You know, a stack of things that give you evidence. 

And, well, first, I mean, the story is when I was at Leeds I remember talking to him about wanting to win the Olympics when I was about 15. And my best result was second in the Yorkshire County Championships. Um, and it, it wasn't something I volunteered easily, actually kinda, it came to a head and I just basically blurted it out. Because he was challenging why I was there cause I wasn't doing very well. Um, it was like, well, I want to win Olympics. And I remember him saying to me, that's a great goal. 

And I said, well, he said, yeah, and it's a great goal. And he said, so something like, um, you know, it's not gonna happen next week sort of thing, but somebody who wins the Olympics will be a child of 14, 15 dreaming about it. So everybody that wins them will be thinking about the possibility. And so who am I to decide whether you can or can't? I, I have no idea. So therefore, why not hold it true and then work towards it? So, so I'm, I'm conscious of that as, you know, as those people that parents thinking about your children. It's like what? Don't tell them what, don't limit them by what you can or can't do or what you think they should or shouldn't do, but actually give them conditions to work it out for themselves and almost like work out whether they can or can't in the end. And let them choose. 

It's, great coaches, I mean, he was brilliant with other kids who possibly had the same dream as I did, but as they were not, maybe not hit hitting certain milestones, he would have a conversation which was more around empowering them to make choices. So look, you know, maybe you want to win the Olympics, but you still haven't risen beyond the Yorkshire championships in the northeast of England. It it's gonna be quite a, this is gonna be quite challenging. You probably need to do this, this, and this. Are you okay with that? Are you still enjoying your journey? Yeah, it's almost like, um, yeah, he's a great coach. 

Costello

I suppose coaches and leaders make a judgment between the data that's in front of them and then their experience and the behaviours and the attitudes that they've demonstrated. And Terry backed you and, let's be objective here, it was a great decision that he, that he made. 

Moorhouse

Yeah, no, well it was, and some of my behaviour wasn't great and that's quite interesting as well. So just to, I wasn't this model citizen that sort of dreamt about winning the Olympics. And I, we'd fall out every now and again. In fact, I once, um, he once kicked me out the session because, I was kinda answering back on something. He said, I want you to do a certain set. I said, I'm not doing that. He said you’ve gotta do it, I said well I'm not doing it, so he said go home them. So he kicked me out. So I got kicked out few times. I remember once he kicked me out, he said I, because I was arguing about something, I was, I fell out with another swimmer and he said, um, like never don't come back. This is it. You go, go home, don't come back. And so the next morning I rocked up at five in the morning on the poolside and he said, what you doing here? I said, well this is where I come, this is where I train. He said, I told you not to come back. And he sent me home at five in the morning. He said, no, no, you're not coming back. I, I kept on driving to, or, got my dad to drive me. I kept on going, I kept on going until he stopped saying it. 

So, so I was quite, and I remember talking to him because obviously I was with him until the age of 28 from the age of 14. And so I went through my, a lot, my formative years. And I remember having lots of conversations in my 20s and as I got a bit older reminding him, and he would talk to me about navigating some of my behaviours and, but seeing through some of that difficulty, I mean, because the other thing that I haven't talked about at the time I was, I was being quite heavily bullied at school. So I, I didn't enjoy school at all. So I was struggling with a whole bunch of other things and some of my anger was coming out. And I think that him being able to hold that, because you say, you're right, behavioural data could come back, come at you. But he, he gave me a, almost like a first-hand experience of looking beyond the behaviour. What's going on for you is a key question, right? So what was going on? 

But then the belief in potential I think probably came from, I think he probably realised that to be an Olympic champion, you kinda need to be edgy, a), but also can you sort of harness that? And my work ethic was massive. I think he saw that and I, I believe he probably saw something physically in the way I swam, right. So he must have seen some technique thing that made him think I had a chance. 

Costello

Uh, obviously you went onto incredible success with Olympic Gold, Commonwealth Gold, European Championship Gold. World records as well, which I think you've said were, were actually a favourite for you, that, that, that was a really enjoyable process, the record itself. Can you give us even more of an insight into the environments that you were operating in and how that was actually critical to your success as well? 

Moorhouse

So, home-base was Leeds, but then I would go and do various things. So I went, I was in the Australian Institute of Sport for a while in Canberra. Um, I was in Canada for a while. I even had a spell in Russia for about three weeks, training with one of their high-performance teams. Um, so I went often and did these things in these high-performance centres. But what became quite clear was people often think of putting sport, think about the facility. Is it a 50 metre swimming pool or, or the actual kit you have or the, the tools. But actually the behaviour and the culture was massive. You know, the, the very best centres had somebody who set up something where it, there was that curiosity, you know, curiosity and, and, and people looked after each other, people stretched. There was almost like this real massive challenge because you want, people were there to try and stretch themselves but also be stretched as well and be open to that push with huge support and care and love. The best centres I was in understood a lot of that. Understood identity, understood team identity, what it meant to be part of something, um, pride in what we were trying to achieve. 

Costello

So above the locker room at one of these centres there was a sign there to inspire people. What was that?

Moorhouse

Yeah,so it was the mission statement of the organisation. I think it, it, it said the aim of this establishment is to create an environment where champions are inevitable. So, you know, there's something around when your mission is that, and the big deal for me was like, it wasn't saying it's going to do stuff to us. It was almost like it was a, a symbiotic place where we were doing something as well. And you know, going back to the old psychological contract that you, in the workplace, what's the organisation going to do for me? But what am I going to do for the organisation? We're losing a bit of that. I think there's a lot of people in, in work now, and I know we're not fast forwarding to work now, but that psychological contract between an organisation and individual. There's a lot of, I think the imbalance to what's the organisation going to give me? What might, what, you know, the, the people coming to the workplace as a, a real neediness for and an expectation, the workplace will give me something and what they're going to do for me versus what am I going to do for the organisation. 

Costello

So then you feel that the balance has gone the other way, particularly after, after COVID-19, you know, we've had the ‘Great Resignation’, the power has, the power has come to the individual. 

Moorhouse

Yeah. 

Costello

Saying that we need to get, the businesses need to get the balance back. 

Moorhouse

Well, and individual, just to help individuals understand that sort of two-way contract really. And, and it isn't, it is a psychological contract. It's something around, there has to be an expectation of the organisation that, that demand and the support. So we will support you with career growth, we'll support you develop, we'll support you with flexibility, everything you need to manage this environment. And we have these expectations. And that shouldn't surprise you that we need you to do these things because that's part of our, our requirement as well in this, in this contract. It’s quite interesting. So when I was in a high-performance organisation in sport, but it was very well known that it was a give and take. But give on both sides, take on both sides.

Costello

You did of course retire from competition. You founded Lane4 with Professor Graham Jones, uh, and Adrian Hutchinson. If you could travel back to the mid-90s when this all started with, uh, Lane4, prior to EY Lane4, what advice would you give yourself that would support you in the next three decades? By the way, Adrian. I'm sure they've, they've flown by. 

Moorhouse

They have flown by, and there have been different phases to it as you, as you say. I mean, the irony is I've done this longer than I was a swimmer by a long, a long way. So it's almost like in terms of my identity when I talk about swimming it’s quite funny because that's pretty much a third of my life. Two-thirds have been, been in business, but, um, isn't, it was an interesting time. I look back on it very fondly, really fondly, you know, three people, well, four and five, you know, we had Liz Campbell, Dominic Mahony, Austin Swain were all involved, um, early days and they're still with us now, even though Graham and Ade, the other Adrian aren’t, and they left during the last 15, 20 years. 

But really it was fun, you know, trying to convince people that we could do something for them in business. I quite like that. That's where the competitive piece came in. You know, can you win a piece of work? Can you, do you believe in what you've got enough? And that was the other thing I, I genuinely believed in people like Graham, Austin and Liz who were the sport psychologists if, because effectively Lane4 was the commercialisation of Loughborough sport psychology department.

Believing in somebody when they're a little bit unsure themselves, but still ambitious and want to have at it. I had two instances within probably four months. And then convincing the, the guys to leave Loughborough was another moment when, you know, they believe in me and I said, I believe in you. I think you could do the job. So that runs through quite a lot.

Costello

The power of a, of a leader to say those four words can hugely shift not just mood, but identity. And obviously, obviously, you know, in our workshops we, we talk about levels of communication, you know, the, the cliches, the facts, the opinions. But where real rapport is we’re expressing emotions. Now this, this was the mid-90s where you’re saying to each other, I believe in you. I believe in it. Like we perhaps don't hear that enough today.

Moorhouse

No, I think, I think you're right. And I think that too many people cruise along with people who maybe don't believe in or half believe in and that never tackle it, never face into it. So I think because the opposite is true in a way, almost like don't, don't sleep-walk through with a team that you might have inherited. You go, well actually if you don't believe in somebody, it is going to shine through every single thing you do. So not, I'm not saying be blunt and say I don't believe in you, but have a conversation which is, and again, it's that contract of what we're expecting from each other. And actually, can I get to a position where you, you you're happy with what you're doing? 

I think it's a, I think often people are a bit lazy in leadership roles and they kind of don't get curious about what the individual truly is passionate about and how it matches the need of the organisation. We're back to that thing about - is your skillset and what you're trying to achieve congruent with what we, we are trying to achieve. And I think that leaders have that interesting balance between the, the stewardship and the health and the wellness of the organisation. They are there to do that for, and are paid to do that for, and also the needs of all the individuals within that organisation. 

Costello

Over those years you, obviously you progressed EY Lane4. From my perspective, we, we've seen the, the mindset of leaders evolve over time. There's all those classic phrases like ‘sweat the assets’, ‘nice guys finish last’, ‘work hard, play hard’. Now we're into, into new territory. I'm just wondering if, if there's, if there, there's not always a new thing is there, but there's, there's often a, a principle in leadership that's important. What are you championing at the moment when you are working with, with our EY Lane4 clients? 

Moorhouse

Well, we, we gonna move into the, the, the paradoxes aren't we of leadership. I think that, you know, when you go to ‘ruthlessly caring’, I'll throw it in straight away. But when you go into these, sort of, the continuum or the, the different places you can be in making decisions in business. So business leaders have a responsibility to, to make as enterprise leaders. And it's almost like you're in a yeah, position of care for organisation and care for human beings that are your organisation. Cause there, there's a reason the organisation, the upper word exists, because ultimately if you look at it, and unpick it is people organised a certain way to do something. And so the organisation is um, nothing, nothing about people frankly. And, and yet that's that tension between the thing you need to get done and the humans that need to do it, even if they're using technology to do, to do it. 

And so I think that where I'm, where I go is, is the head and the heart. I always talk to people about the head and heart because great strategies, great ambitions, great goals, um, usually measured with a metric that makes sense to that organisation or industry, delivered by human beings who have hearts and are kind of messy and emotional and have things going on inside and outside work. So, how do you create a scenario where the achievement of the things, the rational stuff, matters and means something to the human being that comes and is engaged with your organisation to do it. I hope that makes sense and not too literal. 

And I've always thought this, you know, it's the same in sport in the old days in sport. It's like, well I'll work my socks off and I'll try and achieve his goals and do these numbers to swimming times, but I need to know that there's care in this system and that if it goes wrong, I've got a bit of a safety net and I won't get fed to the wolves, sort of thing. Your care and your safety net is what gives you, um, the power to strive, you know, we, we, we often use the method, the trapeze metaphor, don't we. I don’t know if you, you know, see if you want somebody to fly through the air leaving a trapeze, well, it is the most scary thing in the world if there's no safety net. But if there’s a safety net, you go weeee, you're exhilarated and it’s brilliant. 

Costello

I think we need it in a workshop. We need to break out the trapeze one day and get a few volunteers. To give it, give it a go. Yeah. Well let's, let's, let's wade through that tension. Let's look into that mess. Let's think about some of these scenarios. Let's now lean on the, the, the work of our Head of Research, Amy Walters Cohen, who obviously released the, the book ‘Ruthlessly Caring’, which you've mentioned, emphasising specifically leadership mindsets. And one mindset is this balance between relentless drive and then on the other hand maintaining perspective. 

Moorhouse

Yeah.

Costello

Health, wellbeing. You, having listened, listened to you in a, in in other forums, in other talks, you know, discomfort's been critical to learning, growth and development. But how do leaders individually, just for their own performance, balance the two, do you think?

Moorhouse

That's a good question because a leader that balances from discomfort to discomfort and takes their teams along the journey that is, is like that, can be in a manic way, is not a helpful, it's not a helpful thing. I think you need to rest and you need to not keep that, you know, the Bunsen burner, the heat on all the time. Cause what I learned, I learned twice through my life, once in swimming, once at the early days of Lane4, is having burnout, I burnt out literally, um, in swimming after the ‘84 Olympics I, I really overworked and I was too intense about what I was doing and I couldn't switch off and it just totally worked against me. 

And the same is true I think in business when we, you know, probably year three or four of Lane4 when we, we'd got the, the thing the, the rock rolling up the hill and, and it was starting to go well and we just, when you love something, you just throw all your energy in there and actually it becomes counterproductive in the end. And so the, you know, that sort of drive is one thing, but understanding balance is another thing and having time out and I'm, I am, I think, and I believe I'm really good at balancing out working hard and, and easing back and relaxing and, and taking time out. And I protect it at close to all costs. I say no a lot. Um, yeah, I'll say yes a lot, but I think that it's very important to say no.

Costello

Well, let me be the, the bad guy then, let me challenge you on that one. If we, if I, if I was on one of your projects and we reached the, an end to the project and you knew that we'd worked every hour God sends and, and we did have to pull out work on a Sunday or whatever it is, which isn't ideal, but we just had to, what would happen in, in practicality, in, in reality if, if we were working on one of your projects to, to get that rest?

Moorhouse

So, in one of my projects, I would never tell people to work over the weekend. On one of my projects if somebody said, I've got to work over the weekend. If you said to me I've got to work over weekend, I’d say, why do we have to work on the weekend? What deadline has been put in place? Is it me that's put it in place or is it the client? And I would try and have your back and I’d get back to the client and say, does it really need to be delivered by Monday morning, three o'clock or five o’clock in the morning? Or can you have it by Tuesday so my team can actually have their weekend? So I think there's something about my ability to protect that if I, almost like you, you know, stand by your belief, right? So I would not be as hypocritical, I don't think, if you are on one of my projects. 

Now, what I find is, some of the projects I have, there are people who like work and other stuff they do, they love it, you know, and actually they will work all the time. And I, and I can't, can I stop them? I can, you know, I can't stop them. However, what I can do is I can reflect back and, and say, look, it looks like you are putting all this time in. Is it because you want to? And where's your break going to come? It's almost like, you know, I guess high performers need self-regulation or somebody to sort of point out and hold the mirror up. But I genuinely, I, I genuinely would really push back on deadlines that compromise the health and wellness of my people. Um, first and foremost, that's the, that's the most important thing. And then if you have a big old sprint that includes a weekend or whatever and we've all agreed to what that means to us and we're covering each other’s backs and understanding if somebody can't because they've got some childcare or whatever, then there's an element of this spirit, the fighting spirit within that, that is actually quite exciting as long as there's time out and there's ultimate a, a bounce back where you can go, right you don't come in for the next two days or I know you've just done all that pretty hard. Thank you. Gratitude is, is a big thing. Yeah. And we're all in it together and we made these choices ourselves. And then let's work out how we now recover because that is so important. What I wouldn’t do is flip you onto another client. 

Costello

One thing Adrian that really interests me is when you had that moment at the Olympics where you, uh, won gold, you described it as a box popping open.

Moorhouse

Yeah.

Costello

Which, which you, you were talking about focus on, on the race to almost just maintain perspective and, and not be overwhelmed by everything else that was going on. How, how have you perfected that focus so that you, you're keeping yourself in, in balance and in the right place? 

Moorhouse

I don't want to say it's simple, but it's a learned stress management, pressure management technique. So the idea that, in the lead up to an Olympic final, so you, you as, as people might imagine you’re standing on the start line, whether it's a running race or swimming race or whatever race and, or starting, when waiting for the whistle to go off if you're hockey player. Um, when you get to that moment, the way you have managed yourself and your emotions will determine a lot of what happens next and your ability to conserve, preserve and be in the best shape for it. And so how do you think about what you're about to do? And one of the things around, you know, that sort of idea that I'm about to enter an Olympic final, this is to work out, whoever wins this is the best in the world. 

When you start to build it up, you can actually put a huge amount pressure on because you've got to, you know, it is a big deal in that moment and you've spent a lot of time doing it. But reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing and getting again perspective and go well, so I remember saying to myself, well I don't have to beat the best of the rest of the world tomorrow or this book when I get up, I've only gotta beat seven people ‘cause I've beat the rest of them already. That's perspective. And it's only seven people. So it's actually, it's, and, and it's something I've done before and these are people I know. Um, and I, I don't know their strengths and weakness. I know my strengths. And then the other thing is that the control thing, what's in my control is the way I conduct myself in the room for half an hour beforehand. 

The way I, the way I get my start. So let me think about the start cause that's the first thing in my control and let it flow from there. So the popping off thing was when I finished one, looked at the scoreboard and realised I'd won. It's almost like, then it does the opposite of reduce, reduce it expands, expands, expands, expands until you realise what you've actually done. And so it's almost like boxing it down to the bare minimum, what you've got control of and what it actually is. And genuinely, genuinely before that Olympic final, I felt as nervous, the same amount of nerves I felt when I was 10 going into my first Airedale-Wharfedale nine and under backstroke race, because it was the same, it was the same thing. I had to beat seven people. I was still scared to a, to a degree, but I was managing that same fear. Because I've beaten them all. So, so the point I'm saying is, I think you focus what they teach you and it, it isn't just, um, jargon, but you focus on the process goals, the small things that are in your control that you can do next. And don't worry about the other things because it's, there's no point. You, you haven't got the energy, your time to do that. 

Costello

Yeah. And, and uh, of course you broke everything down, right? You know, to the, the turn, the dive, the techniques, everything broke, broken down into the, to the minutiae. How does that relate to, I mean your experiences of perhaps pitching, presenting. 

Moorhouse

Yes. 

Costello

You know, to, to, to clients. 

Moorhouse

It's, it's, it's very similar, isn't it? And as I said, I think I said it earlier, you know, the, the idea of like, I don't race anymore. I don't do anything competitive apart from anything I do in work. So, um, you know, going to a client pitch, trying to win it, um, is all about the process goals. It's almost like covering off all the things you've done well to get you to the point where you might win. It's interesting, there's a big piece of research, I don’t know if you're aware of it, but Olympic or sports that people have been number one in the world for over five years and sustained that and you know, what motivates them? Actually I was one of the people in the study and it came out, the two things that motivated those sorts of people was winning and mastery. So winning, of course you might expect it to be winning because you know, it's nice to win. 

But then the mastery of all the components that go into the winning are the things that really switches us on. That's what I love doing. So, if I'm going for a pitch or I'm doing a piece of client work, if I know I've covered all the things I need to cover, I've mastered those things or me and my team or we have got, because you can't do everything yourself, then the inevitability of the win comes. So, you don't actually have to think about winning, because it's a bit scary. What you do is you go, well, yeah, we've covered that off, we've covered that off, we've covered that off. And, and almost like you do what you can to put yourself in the best position. Then if you don't win, you know, I, I never really got stupidly upset or I didn't blame other people or…

Costello

Was it, it was back to the minutiae. Well, onto the next mindset - Responsibly daring. 

Moorhouse

Yeah.

Costello

There's balance of leading responsibly but also innovation as well. There's plenty of examples from sport, there's plenty of examples of, of business. I'm just, you know, in, in your career are there any standout moments where they've just hit that sweet spot and hit the target for you?

Moorhouse

It's a very interesting one because I think that, that the entrepreneurial spirit is daring. The entrepreneurial spirit says you'll try something and if it doesn't work, you, you turn, you take a U-turn or you go quickly to something else. Um, but not irresponsibly. I, you know, so in particular when, when we started in Lane4, we actually, we had an office in Australia. We had an office in New Jersey and you know, that's the daring bit. You know, we, we weren't, I think we were no more than a hundred people. We stuck 10 people in Melbourne and 10 people in New Jersey because we had clients there, you know, and they, it was fantastic for people. 

But then the responsibility piece around what did it feel like for them and how do you get them to, and, and during the recession 2008, 2009, that it comes into the ruthlessly caring bit, because the daring bit was to try something, but being responsible to their lives and their wellness, and then having to close those offices during the recession. 

Costello

Yeah, yeah. But is it also not responsible. Like there's a, there's a responsibility to be entrepreneurial. There is a responsibility to, to innovate else we stagnate at the same time.

Moorhouse

No, I think you're right. And I, and that's the, the interesting challenge when you come into a place, a large corporate like we're in now and it's interesting because I coach and we work with a lot of large corporates and that framework, the frameworks and the restrictions that people have, and the governance that you have in a larger organisation, if you let it can close you down. But how do you create, how do you carry on being daring within that? So a lot of organisations all go and say, we want to be entrepreneurial. It's that, well, yeah, don't tie my hands behind my back then if you want me to be entrepreneurial on my legs. Because I'm going to find it hard. And actually the phrase, you probably heard it, I love it. The freedom in the framework phrase, and I first heard about 15 years ago from one of my clients, and the idea that you, you have to have a frame of reference and know your boundaries, but then play within it. 

Costello

There's an example in sport that comes to mind when I think about responsibly daring. And it was the, it was the moment in the, uh, World Athletics championship back in 1991, and it was the, uh, relay where the British, uh, against the, the Americans and I, and I wonder if we had that entrepreneurial spirit back then. But the night before the final, uh, Kriss Akabusi and Roger Black decided to change the running order. So Roger Black would, would, would normally have gone, gone last. And uh, you know, that was a normal way of doing things. 

Moorhouse

Yep.

Costello

Night before, uh, they decided to put Roger Black first to get ahead of the, the Americans. And um, that was a bold decision at the last minute. But it, it paid off. But could it only have been the, the British team that could have done that, do you think, rather than if you think about other organisations that, or other, uh, countries where the, the culture may have been different. 

Moorhouse

No, you're right. Because what you're doing there is the power was in the athlete's hands and, and rather than the coach in some organisations, you, you're right. In sporting organisations often there is a, to use transactional analysis, of often still a parent-child relationship where the coach tells you your strategy and what you're going to do. And it might not go right, but you as a leader or the coach, if you've given that responsibility, you've got to accept the fact that it might not go right. Because those people will take that responsibility and will understand their role in, in, in that, that whether it goes well or not. And that's okay because you're in it together. 

Costello

Yeah. And, and this is a, an almost embarrassing example to bring up, but it remind, reminds me of coaching my, my son's football team and trying to just stay quiet from the sidelines. Not giving a tell style all the time. Actually empower the players, let them run with their strength, let them make their mistakes. But it's, it's hell not saying anything. Some, sometimes. 

Um, final area, Adrian, uh, which is, you mentioned it before, ruthlessly caring. Uh, making tough decisions, but remaining compassionate at the same time. And I hope it's okay to, to go there with, with, with this question. You've navigated Lane4 through a recession. You've led, uh, Lane4 through COVID-19 and continue to lead on the integration with EY and Lane4 and its current success. What lessons did you learn in terms of balancing tough decisions and staying compassionate at the same time? 

Moorhouse

It's something that I learnt from my parents, which was, you, you walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. You, you have to empathy. Yeah. If it was you, how would that feel if it was you? So, you know, when we, as I, I touched on it in 2008, we had to close the international offices, how would I feel in that situation? So I'm, I, I have to deliver the news, I have to talk to people about it. It is the right thing to do for the survival of the organisation, which I'm primary steward, because it has to happen. And then I also have to then switch into how will it feel? Let me work out how, let me not shy away from the news. Let me not shy away from that decision. Let me involve them. Let me tell them as early as I can with the thinking and then walk alongside them as I navigate the next step and find out what they need at that point. 

Um, so that would, that's quite important. And I think that all those moments, you know, in a leadership position, it, you’re, you have to look after the entity. You're, you're there to do that. And you have to understand what the human angle is and how it might feel if it was you. Um, and listen, and you know what, that's the other thing. That typical thing about trying to fix everything. You sometimes you can't fix and actually just let people be upset or let people with their, have their feelings and not trying to justify or condone or anything. You know, actually being neutral. That's quite important. I think just let people have space. Um.

Costello

Yeah, when you're saying, saying this, it reminds me of Kipling's poem ‘If’.

Moorhouse

Yeah.

Costello

You know, almost like this as a leader, you, you might not be liked at, at, at times, but you are, I assume thinking long term you were making trade-offs for the, the long term by putting yourself in people's shoes. But when you are in the room with the director, how's that conversation playing, playing out? Give us a peek behind the curtain. 

Moorhouse

I mean, it's a classic scenario planning, isn't it? In, in lots of ways. It's almost like it's this chess, it's like what's the next move, the next move? If that happens, that happens, that happens. It's almost like playing out and everybody testing a scenario. So if we do this and that happens, and then just bouncing that around with people. So that's that, I think that's quite important. Just testing decisions and things that could be the scenarios that might occur off the back of that. Not that you've got to think through everything but try and walk a little bit further down the road beyond the decision. 

In Lane4 we were very close, you know, the, the sort of people that started Lane4. You know, we've got 20 year relationships and we knew, and we were very comfortable letting each other know when we weren't doing things right as well as doing things right. We had a lot of emotional in the bank, emotional bank account sort of thing. So we, and we weren't too family-friendly that we just didn't face into things. We were very good at giving each other feedback. So I think having that trust in relationship is, is very important. 

Costello

Today, we would call it psychological safety. And, and but also what you're highlighting for me is who's getting that balance between tough decisions and compassion. It's who's in the room at the time as, as well. That's critical. 

The final point then on, on ruthlessly caring. And if you reflect on the, the legacy that you want to leave with your own work with EY Lane4. Is a culture that is compassionate and able to make tough decisions. Is that actually important to you as well? 

Moorhouse

Yeah, I, I, I think I want people to fulfil what they want to do at work. Feel like they've been cared for as they come to work. So, so I mean, one of the first things we talked about Lane4 was, I, I wanted it to be a place where people had the best job they've ever had, and they would say that. And so everything that I do has that particular level frame or filter on it, but I don't want it the best job to be just an easy job. I think that the best ones are the ones where you've experienced all the highs and lows of life and you've had all the great stuff happen and you've come through the end of it and you reflect and go, well that was fantastic. I, I really enjoyed that project that week, that month, that job. Um, you know, create an environment where you can be your best self. And that best self often is one that is given challenges, takes challenge, accepts challenge, pushes self, wants to develop, wants to stretch, wants friends, wants to have fun, wants to be part of teams that care about each other. And I think that a lot of the paradoxes play into that because life is messy, life is highs and lows, and you're managing that within a, a context of organisation. 

Costello

I thought you were going to say life is a rollercoaster. There's some truth to that. Of course, nothing, nothing good comes easy. Adrian, thank you so much for taking the time out to share your advice, your journey, moments from your incredible career. It's been fantastic. Very much looking forward to seeing how EY Lane4 continues to evolve.

Moorhouse

Yeah. 

Costello

For the modern era. And of course, uh, those listening can discover more about EY Lane4 visiting ey.com or follow EY Lane4 on LinkedIn. And, of course, check out Amy Walters Cohens’ fantastic book Ruthlessly Caring. You could also, as I mentioned, find Adrian's book on mental toughness, co-authored with Professor Graham Jones. 

Adrian, it's been a pleasure. 

Moorhouse

Yeah, thanks Michael. I enjoyed it.

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