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How CFOs can drive innovation, collaboration and trust in finance
In this episode of the Better Finance: CFO Insights podcast, host Myles Corson speaks with Stacey Ryan-Cornelius, former CFO of Ogilvy, about modern finance leadership and building collaboration.
Related topics
In this episode of the Better Finance: CFO Insights podcast, host Myles Corson speaks with Stacey Ryan-Cornelius, who served as the CFO of Ogilvy at the time of recording and now holds the role of Global CFO at Burson. In this episode, Stacey shares how the role of CFO is evolving from financial stewardship to a more human-centered leadership approach, where influence, empathy and communication are just as important as technical expertise.
She discusses how finance leaders are navigating complexity by fostering psychological safety, strengthening relationships across the business and turning data into compelling stories that drive alignment and action. Stacey also explores how technology, including artificial intelligence (AI), is helping enhance decision-making and enabling more innovative ways of working.
Stacey highlights the importance of cultivating presence and leading with purpose, encouraging finance professionals to create a lasting impact that extends beyond the numbers.
Key takeaways:
- Develop a culture of psychological safety to empower finance teams and enhance collaboration.
- Utilize advanced technology, such as AI, to improve decision-making processes and drive efficiency.
- Strengthen communication skills to effectively convey complex financial insights to diverse audiences.
- Create a collaborative environment within your organization that encourages innovation and creativity.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Myles Corson
You’re listening to the EY Better Finance: CFO Insights podcast — a series that explores the changing dynamics of the business world and what it means for finance leaders of today and tomorrow. I’m your host, Myles Corson, from EY.Today I'm pleased to welcome Stacey Ryan-Cornelius. At the time of our recording, Stacey served as the Global Chief Financial Officer (CFO) at Ogilvy, where she spent four and a half years shaping the firm’s financial strategy and operations through a significant period of transformation and growth. Since the recording, Stacey’s recently moved into a new leadership position at Burson, part of the WPP network alongside Ogilvy.
So, with that let’s get into the conversation.
Corson
Stacey, there's so much we could talk about today. I'm really excited to get into the conversation. Perhaps you could start off just by sharing a little bit about your career journey and how you ended up where you are today.Stacey Ryan-Cornelius
Absolutely. When I was younger, didn't know what a CFO was; always thought I wanted to be a nurse or some sort of a caretaker. And I'll come back to that in a moment, but was introduced to what accounting is when I was in high school, which was great. Was able to get into a program in college that made sure to amplify that interest with law and everything, followed the normal path once you're in an accounting saying you want to go public.So, I went to public accounting. I'm going to date myself and call it Pricewaterhouse even though now it's PricewaterhouseCoopers [PWC], so that gives you an indication of the length of time. And I hit the lottery when I was at PW because when you are assigned to a group, you could have been assigned to media and communications or financial services or more of the packaged goods and inventory part of the business. And by luck, I got assigned to media and communications and I got the bug.
When I was there and I was auditing all these firms and doing IPOs [initial public offerings] and really understanding the complexities of a business from that lens, I had a, a life event as you would, I had a child and decided that I didn't want to necessarily be a partner and wanted to get into quote, unquote, “private” and Ogilvy was the opportunity that was before me.
And I came into Ogilvy very structured and buttoned up and control-focused, real classic auditor. And throughout the years, I learned the business side. Everything that I had learned in public accounting gave me the right technical acumen in order to take on an organization like Ogilvy. And there was a very, very strong value exchange in that regard. But over the years at being at Ogilvy in several different positions, really got to understand what it meant to run a business. And that was increasingly important to me. And relationship buildings and clients from that end and creating work.
And then I left Ogilvy for a bit because after being there for a while, you get itchy and you want to see what the rest of the world is like. I didn't go too far. I went to some other companies within the WPP network, but still learned a lot because at one point I was a controller type. And when I stepped out of Ogilvy, I went into more of the decision-making, strategic, core CFO running a business perspective.
And that was baptism by fire. Like I was in it, and I had to make those decisions and make those key model changes and change my own persona as a leader. And then, was asked to come back to Ogilvy during a critical time and have been very, very happy. That's the long and the short of it.
Corson
That's great. It's a remarkable story. And what I love there is the way you described layering up the experiences and building that resume, the different skill sets over time. Were there particular events or milestones in that journey that really stand out to you as being critical, particularly on that path to building the CFO readiness and resume?Ryan-Cornelius
Definitely. Throughout the journey, there were several, like, I like transactions and projects. That's always the thing. There's many times where we pulled, we did carve-outs of the business because we felt that it would grow better if we put it in other distinct areas. One of the things I did when I first came to Ogilvy was, around the time when Sarbanes-Oxley [Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2022] was coming into play, taking the business through that structure and setting that up now for everything that it's evolved into. I could look at that with pride and say I had impact on that.There's been several instances where we've made some big investments into things and had to figure out how to afford it but still grow. Just being in, what we call, hot houses of thinking and you're trying to, all trying to figure out how to get the best out of the business, that level of creativity and problem solving. There's been several instances where we've had to do that. And you could see how the business has changed based off of it.
Corson
Maybe we'll come back and talk about that when we get into some of the effective business partnering conversations. I'd love to explore that hot housing idea, but just staying on this idea of building the resume. Obviously, the times change, you've got next generation of finance talent coming through. As you engage with the talent coming through your finance organization, what are the things that you're talking to them about in terms of the skill sets, enabling them to build the resumes to be the finance leaders of tomorrow?Ryan-Cornelius
Clearly, all of the circumstance of AI [artificial intelligence] coming into things. Like I'm really, really hungry to understand how we can make everything that we do faster, better. And they have the pulse for that. I want to know, but I'm, my energy is not the same, right? So, I'm like, you guys, this is your world. So come to me.Like I always say, if I throw out something and it only has like 30% of what we need, I expect you to help me fill in the other 70% through your own creative thinking. Definitely how we can use technology more and more in order to get to better data and insights and get to decision-making faster is the first question that I'm asking everybody right now, because I do think there's a lot we can do and we're not necessarily where we need to be with that. That's number one.
And the other, two, is relationships. Like I think, especially when we talk about strategic partnering, there's gonna come a time when some of the more day-to-day tasks are more automated, more so even than they are now. Value is driven by how well you develop those relationships, how well you know the business, where you put yourself into certain challenges where you're uncomfortable and you can learn the most. Don't be fearful if you don't understand everything. Speak up, ask questions.
I wish somebody had told me that more because I probably was the type of person who sat in a room, didn't have any clue what was going on, but then spent hours and hours trying to figure it out myself. I tell people, I try to create trusted spaces so that those conversations can be there right then and there. And they don't feel like anything that they say or do is wrong. It's all just learning.
Corson
That sort of psychological safety point and people having the confidence to speak up is such an important part of the innovation culture. And you sort of touched on it there, particularly in an AI- and technology-enabled world, the importance of the collaboration and the communication just becomes even more important. That's the differentiator.Ryan-Cornelius
Exactly.Corson
So, again, as you think about what are the attributes of successful communicators, what are the things that you look for?Ryan-Cornelius
Well, in order to be a good communicator, you have to be a good listener. There's so many people who talk over people who only want to get their points across, who, as you're speaking are thinking of their own next thought, instead of engaging in something creatively, in order for you to get to the best answer.I think you also have to be a good observer, because body language goes into communication. You may be thinking you're talking about something that everybody's agreeing with or not. You got to be able to understand the dynamics of how well you're doing your storytelling. There's day-to-day communications. If you're trying to influence something or persuade something, I think that's a nuance and that's a craft that you have to continuously hone and change for different audiences because, how I'm trying to convince my finance leadership team of something is different than when I'm talking to my global ExCo. You have to be able to modulate. And even how I'm talking to my parent company. Everything has its own different spin to it.
What excites me is being able to be a little bit of a shape-shifter when you're communicating in order to know how to get to the right answer and to persuade and influence in the right way. And it just takes practice. Like for me, I remember when I did my first presentation to the WPP board, my stomach was in butterflies. When I get nervous, like my throat chokes up and your heart beats, like all the normal things. And when I thought about it, I just was like, you know what, no one else can express me the way I can. Just live in that. And there's going to be good things and bad things about it. And you'll get feedback. But they're just people, you build your stuff.
So when you're doing those like very, very high-stakes communications as well and being able to present well, I think it's just a craft that I would love for people to learn much earlier in their career, especially finance people, because sometimes we're just handing over the data, and interpreting the data and cultivating storytelling around it is really where the magic happens, in my opinion.
Corson
Yeah, that's fantastic. And so much to unpack there. Reminds me of that, I'm going to butcher the paraphrase, but it's seek or speak to understand, not to be understood.Ryan-Cornelius
Exactly.Corson
So, I think you articulated that brilliantly. And then your point around making sure that you're communicating for the audience you're seeking to engage with. And just on that point, particularly in the context of more junior members of the team and the way they consume communication. One of the things I talk to various finance leaders about is also the use of social media. And again, as another channel to build personal brand, but also to engage with an audience that frankly is probably more likely present in social media. They may consume stuff in social media world versus internal traditional communication channels.So, I am just interested, since you are working for a marketing organization, is that something that you're seeing, you're embracing?
Ryan-Cornelius
Absolutely. Developing your own personal brand is very, very important. And I encourage everybody to do it as soon as they possibly can. You read some of the posts on LinkedIn, and you engage in those a certain way. There's certain people who use it to amplify pieces of work, their own brand, or even make a public social statement sometimes.And you gotta be careful. Because there's a certain governance that you need to have about yourself when you're putting things out into a public domain, most definitely. So, I think, especially for younger people or more junior people coming into the world, that needs to be very, very much ingrained in their psyche, because you put something out there, it never leaves you. We need to be very, very careful how you do it.
But yeah, I certainly do embrace it. I think it can motivate, I think it can persuade. Personally, I use it to speak my truth sometimes within a professional context, of course, when it's LinkedIn. It's so far been very, very beneficial, I think, all around.
Corson
And then bring it back to the corporate environment. I think you touched on this in your earlier comments and I've seen you talk about, again, the role of CFOs building consensus and commitment, particularly with the executive team. And I think that's such an important point.CFOs come to the table with so much data, so much perspective across the organization that in many cases other functional executives don't have. Could you maybe talk about how you take that role, how you work to, because you can never build complete consensus, but again, getting to commitment and then finances role in the accountability for that commitment is so important?
Ryan-Cornelius
Yeah, on one hand, you have an edge, a bit, when you're sitting at the table because you are the only one who know the information at the level of detail that you do. Yes, people understand it and you engage in a very, very robust conversation about it. But it's one thing that you should always own in that space is you are the expert in that particular level of information.If you are really good at what you do, you're able to then elevate the entire conversation to something that is in a decision-making capacity. You're not just sitting there going through this and this and this, you're not monotone, right? You're really making it lively and you're discussing the pros and cons. I think of it more of you're throwing the paper up in the air after giving them all the information and then you're helping land the pieces of paper as they're coming down, as people are bringing in their own diverse thoughts into it to eventually you come up with the written final product and you're like, all right, this is what we're doing, then you run away with it.
So, you're sort of facilitating it all. And the best way I know to describe it, because I'm big on quotes and there's certain things that I live by is just to be the keeper of the truth. Even as things are popping up here and there and not stifling it. Sometimes you listen to something, you're like, that'll never work, but you can't say that'll never work right away. You gotta let them come sometimes to the same conclusion, or maybe your own perspective has been pushed, because you may have a closed mind or thought about something and somebody else can, you know, using the information you've provided, come up with something really, really dynamic, and you're like, you gotta take your risk tolerance to a level, and you're like, all right, let's try it. What do I know? Like, maybe it is what it is, right?
But you still say, well, but this and this can happen. So, let's just, everybody be aware of what can and cannot happen. And the best environments work that to its degree. And that's where I love to be. That's the thriving part of being a partner is to exchange and get to a point where we all can agree with. And then you got to do it. And that's the part that is also you're very, very much involved in because some people will leave the room and be like, all right, great, you go do it. And you're like, wait, all right, somehow we need to make sure that we have the how in addition to the what.
So that's where, I like to live in that space as well. And when I'm in more operational mindset, that's where I think that also gets my blood really, really hot. I like that piece too.
Corson
You use the word partnering and business partnering is very much the grail for many finance leaders. How do you get into that trusted business partner role where you're welcome at the table rather than being seen as the blocker, you're the enabler. You touched on it in some of the earlier comments. It's not just the analysis and the backward-looking stuff, it's actually how do you bring a perspective about what happens in the future. Again, interested in how you do that other things in terms of particularly technology, for example, that help with that more forward-looking view that really credentializes finance to have that seat at the table.Ryan-Cornelius
There's a lot that you can do – providing the information, putting it in consumable bits that people can get it into, making sure that it's consistent. You don't want to provide different information all the time because you lose trust. What you're doing is building trust with the data, so that people feel comfortable enough to make that decision. Anywhere you can use technology to make that better, stronger, faster and give them access, like that's the only thing. I don't want to be the one that has all the information. Free world, right? Here you go. Here's your dashboard.And nothing pleases me better than for somebody to get a piece of information and come back to me and say, can I make sure I understand this? Like, what does this really mean? Or giving me their interpretation of it, which may or might not be different than what I know. To me, I want to make sure that everybody has, I don't want to be the one that has purse strings of everything. I think that's very, very important for people who have transparency into information.
But that being said, you also have to have leadership in an environment that wants to work with you. There's certain people who are like crack on, do what you need to do, I'm over here. And then you have others who are really, really in there and rolling up their sleeves and trying to do it. I think in order for the partnership to really work, you have to have the environment in which your own personal style works as well.
Corson
We've touched on a number of elements of this already, but if I was asking you to summarize how you would articulate what the modern finance organization should be and should be doing, how would you summarize that?Ryan-Cornelius
Well clearly, obviously the basics, which never change, which is, accuracy, integrity, the right level of governance and the foundational excellence of what our craft is barred on. That's a given. From a modern perspective, I would say maybe a bit more bold than we have been in the past.Because I don't think you get to greatness without taking calculated risks with scenario planning. Like I think there's a lot to learn from going with information up to a point, definitely. And I would be a crazy CFO if I didn't say that. But I do think, and this goes to the art part of who I like to be or how I like to organize. There's the science piece of it where you say all of this is leading in the right place. And clearly if it's off the cliff, you're like, nah, we can't do that. But if you're in that sweet spot, if everybody's smelling that sweet spot, then I think the more modern businesses or modern CFOs need to partner more aggressively and then just still always be that cushion and always have plans A, B, C and D in case everything comes through. But, just let it out a little bit and see what happens. But always be there to catch them and make sure that nothing, that you're still delivering on what you need to deliver.
Corson
I like the way you use the word bold and in the last DNA of the CFO research that we did, there was a bold cohort that we identified within the research population that was definitely, I think, differentiated. It's a willingness to take risk in the right places. And to your point, there are some non-negotiables …Ryan-Cornelius
Exactly.Corson
… in terms of the regulation and compliance that never goes away. But particularly, in terms of the forward-looking stuff, the business partnering ...Ryan-Cornelius
Yeah, I'm not going to jail for anybody. I keep telling everybody I don't look good in orange. My hips don't look good in orange. That's not going to work.Corson
Great. And one of the things in terms of, let’s come back to the business partnering conversations, as you know, we had Roy Sutherland from Ogilvy on the podcast a while ago. We talked about behavioral economics. We talked about, in the context of behavioral economics, providing a language where marketing and finance potentially can come together because it gives you a framework to think about how do we really understand what's driving customer behavior? How does that then help us collectively to drive growth and revenue potential? So, I sort of had Roy's perspective as a marketeer, interested in your perspective as a finance person. And are there some things that you've learned through that in terms of how you think about the business and how you engage with your team?Ryan-Cornelius
I mean when we're talking to clients about growth and entries into growth, barriers to growth, it really does come all the way down to the stage of life cycle they are as a brand and where their objectives are at the moment.From a finance perspective, when we talk about behavioral economics, you always start with clearly the why, what are we trying to achieve and trying to do everything that we're doing. And then you can come up with some pretty interesting, like sometimes we come up with interesting compensation models with our clients to show that we're a trusted partner in what needs to be done. So behaviorally, they know that you're in it with them from that perspective, if it makes economic sense for both them and us to do it that way.
But it is a more innovative way of approaching a comp model if we wanted to do something like that in order to get over some level of a barrier that we may have in trying to get to a partnership level that's above and beyond where we are right now. That's one of the ways that we tend to use it from that perspective. But you have to be really clear what the measurement points are. Because I think it gets tricky.
If anybody's assuming something that's not there, you have to be extremely open, transparent, direct about what we're trying to measure, what we're doing in order to make sure that, in essence, things are fair on both sides about it. I mean, that to me is one of the best examples of using it from that perspective. And then any other part of it is just, I would say, on the flip side, when we're talking about the team and what we're trying to do internally. If we have our own financial goals and objectives that we need to hit as an organization, then it ties into how we're compensating our people, like what motivates them from a behavioral perspective.
I'm always looking at different ways that we can amplify our reward system in order for them to feel that they're in it and that they're motivated and they're gonna get rewarded for the objectives that we put out for the business if we achieve them.
Corson
You use the word innovative and it's obviously something that's very much associated with Ogilvy as an organization, as part of your heritage and legacy. And one of the things I hear from finance leaders a lot is the struggles to create that innovation mindset within their teams. So, I was interested in what you've seen has worked well, how you've been able to take the overall Ogilvy legacy and turn that into something you can use within finance?Ryan-Cornelius
Three things. One, I've been fortunate in my time at Ogilvy, to already being in a creative environment. Everybody in Ogilvy, no matter whether you're the one who's creating the work or supporting the work, feel like you are part of the organization. You are creative. It's not like them and us. It's like, even if you're working in finance, actually one of our prior creative directors, global creative directors had this concept that he put out called pervasive creativity.And I remember when I talked to him about it one time, I was like, what does that mean? Explain to me. I'm the finance girl. And he's like, creativity is everywhere. He's like, when you're problem solving, when you are trying to figure out how to effectively communicate, you are being creative. There is pervasive creativity throughout the organization.
And I'll be honest, I think we brainwashed everybody in Ogilvy to believe that, including our finance team. So when it comes to getting something done, they already inherently believe that they're innovative. And when they need to be pushed a little bit further because there's a particularly hard problem, then that is where I think my leadership style, creating the psychological safety, not letting them off the hook, quite frankly, and pushing them beyond their comfort zones. That's where I just think my leadership style carries through until we get something that makes a difference.
And then once we do, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but when it works, we definitely celebrate it. So that we know that job well done, and now they feel like they've done something, so then they know that it can be repeated. I think that's the thing that we have the most.
Corson
That celebration is such an important point. And there's a quote I think I heard Tom Peters use, which is, celebrate the spectacular failures, not the moderate successes.Corson
You learn more from something that goes badly wrong than something incrementally better that may or may not have been down to certain things, the actions you took. That certainly resonates with me. As we wrap up, I've heard you quoted about talking about the science, art and soul of finance leadership, which I think is such a great phrase, but we'd love you to talk about what that actually means and how you apply it?Ryan-Cornelius
It's rooted in being human. And there's tons of work out there about the benefits of a bit of vulnerable leadership in a way. When it talks about the art, that to me is the creativity of the problem solving. You're crafting something from nothing with your own DNA and also the combustion of other people. That is to me is the art of what we do.The science, that's clear, that's the data, the accuracy, the governance, like all of the foundational pieces that we have, you can't do anything without that, that's the cornerstone of what we do. The soul is the relationships. And it's the piece of yourself that you give to either the organization or to others while you're trying to get to an answer or trying to live and breathe in a space of business. Look, things can seem impossible until you can get somebody else to do something. And I think either from your client's perspective, from your leadership, from your partners, from your peers, or even if you need space and time to do something, the trust that you build with people will allow you to get something done that you wouldn't ordinarily do. I heavy-heavy lean on that. We are relationship business after all. I don't think we can do our enabling craft of the organization unless we ourselves bring a level of soul and relationships into the mix. So that's essentially what it is.
Corson
That's a great way to conclude a great message for our people to think about how to be a successful leader of finance in the future. As we just wrap up, we'd like to do a few rapid-fire questions just to learn a bit more about you. And you mentioned, and you used a few great quotes during the conversation, but is there one all-time favorite quote you go back to regularly and why?Ryan-Cornelius
Yes, again, huge disciple of Maya Angelou. There's so many of hers to pick from. But the one that I have up in my wall in the office is when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Principally, because again, everything throughout life you do again, but the relationships and observation, like it's really, really key. So, that's just one of my favorites, just both personally and professionally. That one is a particular favorite.Corson
We touched on your career journey earlier on and some of the events and milestones that were important, but was there a particular piece of advice or mentorship you had during your career that was really impactful?Ryan-Cornelius
I mean, I'm a perfectionist at heart. When I get feedback on anything, I used to feel like it was like a dagger in my heart. It was just something that I had to move past as I got more senior in my career. But there's two elements to my response. One is you can't tie your self-worth to someone else's validation. That's one thing you just gotta keep your head about. When you're provided feedback that it's not good or bad, it's just an exploration about what you may or may not need. Just be open-minded about it.And then, you know who you are. So, your validation, your value is who you are. You should always take that no matter what it is, don't let anybody else destroy it. And that's particularly important to me as an African-American black woman, like it was very, very important for that to resonate and still be at the forefront of my mind in whatever role I'm doing.
Corson
Fantastic. One of the things I didn't ask in a question when you talked about that transition from wanting to be a caregiver or a nurse to being an accountant was, I think you mentioned seeing something in school or someone made you aware of what accounting and finance was as a profession. As a profession, we need to be tackling this question of diversity. I think a lot of it starts at that high school level with actually creating awareness. Would love to get your perspectives on how we can help with creating more people like you that are exposed to what this means and are aware of it as a career choice and a career decision?Ryan-Cornelius
That's an excellent point because there was a distinct path that was set out that was based off of what other people who are around me and my family or whatever had set out. You know, nurse was always one of the ones that you kind of went through. I have an older sister and she was, more or less, first-generation college. And I just happened to fall into right after her. But I think what we need to do is just, I feel a responsibility to go into communities and make sure that they're aware. So, I think literally it's exposure. That whole thing, if you see her, you could be her, that type of thing. That is actually a passion project of mine, is to make sure that, and even with the LinkedIn presence, you know, sometimes I get messages from college students just seeing my profile and reaching out and I always respond, and that's at the college level but even before then to your point at the high school level, that is something that I think we need to do. We need to reach out more to those communities and show up as professionals and show them that they can do whatever they wanna do.Corson
That's amazing. And again, I think you create such a wonderful, vibrant role model that I appreciate everything you're doing there. So finally, Stacey, you're busy, you've got family. How do you maintain well-being and balance with everything you have going on?Ryan-Cornelius
Who says I do?Corson
How do you try to? Maybe that’s the right question.Ryan-Cornelius
I try to, that's the right question. There's three things that come to mind that I always come back to. I love water. Anytime I need to reset, I will get myself to an ocean, a lake, something that has a body of water in it and just meditate with that space because I do think there's just something calming.And even to be honest, when I'm not able to do that, I have all those apps that I put on and you're listening to oceans, seas, I go to sleep on those almost every night. That is a very good way to bring my anxiety, bring my nervous system into something that's palatable.
And then the other thing is my husband can't stand it, but I will watch every spy, cop, espionage show out there. Like to me, a Saturday is sitting there and watching a Law and Order marathon. Like that, I'm into. And for some reason, that keeps me in a nice space. I'm not somebody who jogs or runs. I exercise, of course, but I don't get my fuel from that. I think it's just taking space by water, and watching something that'll make me feel like I'm some sort of CIA or FBI agent and I'm able to kind of do certain things in the world.
Corson
I'm with you on that. I'm anxiously waiting the next season of Slow Horses. That's my fix. Well, Stacey, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful conversation. Really appreciate you joining us. Thanks again.Ryan-Cornelius
Thank you very much for the opportunity. I love sharing.Corson
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