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What makes a product economically and environmentally sustainable? What is a regenerative economy? What role do local artisans play in regenerative economies? How can we ensure local artisans are compensated fairly for their labor? We’ll unpack all those questions and more in this episode.
Today’s Better Hero is Neelam Chhiber, Co-Founder and Managing Trustee at Industree Foundation and Co-Founder and Managing Director at Mother Earth. Her goal is to support local artisans in achieving economic prosperity for themselves, their families, and their communities.
Learn more about Industree and Neelam Chhiber here.
Key takeaways:
Industree Foundation works to enable local communities by forming collectives that aggregate and consolidate artisan producers to engage with large businesses to bring sustainable products to consumers.
EY professionals work with impact entrepreneurs in-person or virtually, offering support to help improve their businesses’ resilience, productivity and capacity to scale sustainably.
Through the EY Ripples program, EY people are devoting their time to SDG-focused projects. The program brings together the combined skills, knowledge and experience of the global EY network in pursuit of one shared vision: to positively impact one billion lives by 2030.
You can also listen to this podcast via other platforms including Apple and Spotify.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Neelam Chhiber
I think inclusion is the key and we've seen a lot of lack of inclusion. So even when we choose a value chain for a community to engage with, we start with the local resources, the local terrain, what is going to work for them and what is the traditional knowledge. And then, we also match that with what the markets are going to consume. So, by default, we have always worked with women, and we continue to work with women. And it's been wonderful because when women earn more, when women are economically empowered, they are further socially empowered; meaning their voices being heard better in their families.
Matt C. Smith
Truth is, humanity can save itself and our planet. And right at this very moment, there’s someone who has taken on the challenge — and is on a path to solving an incredibly tough, global problem. This podcast was created to tell you about them.
You’re listening to Better Heroes, a show from the global EY organization about the untold stories of entrepreneurs devoting their lives to impactful innovation. I’m your host, Matt C Smith.
((Better Heroes is a project of EY Ripples, a global program to mobilize people across the EY network to help solve the world's most urgent social and environmental challenges.))
What does mother earth do? She provides resources for us. But more often than not, the wealth and natural resources of a region make a few people in far-off places rich and do very little for local populations. How can we change supply chains so local artisans and farmers are provided for and compensated fairly for their labor? Neelam Chhiber believes she has an answer that not only empowers local farmers and creative workers in India but is also good for the environment.
She’s the co-founder of Industree Foundation and managing director of Mother Earth. Her organizations are building collectives, training artisans and teaching them to utilize a global marketplace.
Chhiber
What we do is obviously moulded when we are young. So, I decided to pursue design because a brochure at the National Institute of Design said that design is problem-solving. So, I just found that deeply intriguing. And that's what I guess interested me. And that's why when I was at design school, I went and worked with people from India who have been behind our traditional production practices for centuries. These are so-called artisans, I mean, who live in the villages. And when I worked with those communities as a designer, understanding who they are, how they work, and I finally understood the whole centuries-old connection between society, communities, consumption and how things have evolved naturally over the years and why we are, to some extent where we are. And that's where I put my life behind.
Smith
Finding something that has a purpose and has an impact is becoming increasingly easier. But you took a different route, right? You've actually decided to be part of the change in the various practices and organizations that you've been supporting. Trustee Foundation, of course, was the first organization I believe you've been involved in. Tell us a little bit about Industree, the foundation, how you took the stepping stones going from this industrial design background and product design to the formation of that business and what it supports.
Chhiber
So, as an industrial designer, I used to work with very remote communities assisted by the Government of India. But the Government of India sort of had funds for designers to go and work with communities and help them reach national or global markets because these very remote communities have been cut off from modern consumption because these were communities that actually produce stuff for their local economies. If you lived in a village in India, you got your cloth, you got your shoes, you got your construction material, and everything from the artisan community or your neighbors. But with industrialization, all their needs started getting met by imports from factories, and therefore their own producers who lived in the communities were out of work. So, they were getting cheap plastic products in place of the other stuff that they used to normally buy. And obviously, they went for the cheaper plastic products. That's the way the economy works, right? And so, to me, it was very natural that I look at how we can look at an economy where our communities are an intrinsic part of the economy. And that's when I actually initiated a business. So, we were supposed to be a connection between rural communities and modern urban consumers and see that they could connect with each other. That was the initiation of the journey with a business, and I had to do all the hard stuff related to business, which I can tell you is very tough. But I guess I built my, you could say fibre through that. And then we founded a non-profit, Industree Foundation. And over the years, we evolved into a brand called Mother Earth in India. So that's been how the journey took shape.
Smith
India has a long and rich economic and production history that was interrupted by colonization. Neelam hopes it can soon become one of the world’s largest economies with one of the largest populations of workers in the creative industry.
Chhiber
India was the second largest economy in the world and the largest contributor to the economy was our creative manufacturing. So, all our silks, all the fabrics, all clothes, everything. I mean, Europe kind of consumed a lot of it and it came from India. But post-industrial revolution, all that dramatically changed. We then became raw material suppliers. So, our cotton was taken to England, and it was transformed in the mills. And so that was a huge loss to the economy in terms of jobs. And it obviously took India years and years to kind of open out its economy. And it's growing today. But what happened in the process of the great growth that India is going through, and we are going to be the third largest economy in the next 8 to 10 years, we are going to leave behind all these communities. And for us, it's a huge opportunity, keeping climate in mind to talk about sustainable production and consumption. So, 60% of the global consumer is looking for sustainable consumption. This is a massive workforce still in the villages. We have about 200 million practitioners who still have a lot of skills and there are huge markets growing now looking at traceability, looking at sustainable consumption.
Smith
What were the biggest disconnects there that you experienced at the beginning? What are the biggest differences between sort of the conventional way of doing things versus the artisanal and dare I say old school, but good school way of doing things?
Chhiber
I think good school is a good way of describing it because I think the issue with our sector has been the term old school. So, with this entire discussion on the regenerative economy, old school has now become good schools because historically all ways of production have always been extremely regenerative. Essentially, it is that we cannot expect economies to change overnight. The next regenerative economy will come. It will evolve, but it'll take a good 20 to 30 years for it to happen. And so, there's going to be no dramatic shift. There's going to be no revolution. No heads are going to roll. So how is it good? How is the transition going to happen? And therefore, we discovered that there were two or three key things that needed to be done. One is that you've got to look at social and environmental sustainability. And all this is obviously something we've picked up the thought leaders all over the world from the globe, not global south, that sustainability is not just about the planet. Sustainability is deeply interlinked with communities. I don't want to go into great depth here on that. But there's a deep connection between communities and climate and not enough is spoken about that. When you look at the greenhouse gas emission called GHG, there is scope one, scope two, scope three and scope four. Scope 1 and 2 are about reducing carbon, reducing emissions. But Scope 3 and 4 are about the other things, the communities and all the other stuff, which actually needs a lot more focus. And that's what we do. So other than very specifically showcasing examples that this is not a niche thing because we have to engage with businesses now, we cannot say we’ll engage with you 30 years later. We have to engage with them now. Therefore, we engage with large businesses, be it an IKEA, be it a container store, and these are the best and right things because they all have programs to bring more sustainable products to consumers.
Smith
The demand for economically and environmentally sustainable products is growing. And they’re going to be increasingly easier to find at stores we’re already used to.
Chhiber
Every large corporation is trying in some way because they're all noticing this trend. So, we work with them and enable our communities to supply to large global supply chains and we plug the gaps there. I hope that over the years there is far more localization and this entire globalization push gets modified in some way.
Smith
I'm curious, you know, we've learned in other episodes of this podcast, we've spoken about regenerative agriculture, right? Regenerative economy is a term that I haven't actually seen too often. How would you define a regenerative economy?
Chhiber
So, a regenerative economy is where you will be entirely traceable. I take the example of bamboo. So, bamboo is a hugely carbon-sequestering product. So, we start with farmers. India has the world's largest number of smallholder farmers. We do not need India to lose its smallholder farmers and move the way of the West with this large, industrialized farming. So, we build collectives of these smallholder farmers because they need some scale. To bring about scale, we really got to focus on not losing the small, retaining the small, but getting the advantages of the large. So that's the first step of regenerative economies. We talk a lot about bringing back collectivization, but in a modern, we don't have to call the cooperatives though. The West, Norway, Sweden, Finland. All your countries were built on cooperatives. 18%-20% of your economies are co-op economies. Only 1% of India is a co-op economy. So, we collectivize farmers, and they can then have the advantages of bargaining together. Once the bamboo is matured, bamboo is a carbon-sequestering product. The same could be done for any other regenerative product. It could be a millet. It could be a wine. It could be grapes. It could be anything. That's the raw material side. Then we look at the value addition. I think in our models and in the regenerative economy model, what is clear is that communities are going to gain. Local communities have to be transformed from being mere labor to value addition. So, they should actually make the entire wine or the entire value-added millet porridge or the entire bamboo product themselves. Why should the raw material always go out for others to process? So, we take processing to them because that's where the local economies really strengthen. Waste is reduced. All the waste can be used there locally. So, you see a reduction in carbon, you see a reduction in emission because you're transporting less outside you. You see a reduction in waste, and you see a reduction in vulnerabilities.
Smith
Regenerative economies try to keep resources and profits in the local community. They do it by processing and packaging natural resources in the same region where they were grown in. That means they’re good for society as well as the environment!
Chhiber
So even when we choose a value chain for a community to engage with, we start with the local resources, the local terrain, what is going to work for them and what is the traditional knowledge. And then we also match that with what are the markets going to consume. And they can sell some in local markets. They can sell some in national Indian markets. And they can also export to global markets. So, it's all going to be thought out, designed and of course, you've got to measure the kind of miles you sort of use up when you export it. But you should possibly gain that because of all the other regenerative techniques you’ve used through the value chain. But this is the kind of transition we'll have to do across a whole lot of value chains. So, we have a very strong value chain approach. That's how we work. And we work with women. That's, I think, the big part of the piece, which I haven't articulated thus far. When we talk about reducing vulnerabilities, globally, it's understood that it's really helpful working with women. So, 90% of the people we work with at the community level when we build these collectives, whether they are the manufacturing enterprise collectives or the farm collectives, are all women. And we see women not as just producers, but these women are owners of their businesses. These are SMEs and they are pretty large scale as it means we can have 2000 to 3000 women in a collective and they move into positions of ownership, positions of management, positions of quality supervisors, and production supervisors. So, it's not as though they are just mere labor. So, we are building out the entire ecosystem, trying to do it also with a lot of digital technology. So, they have smartphones so they can engage with each other and with buyers. So, it's a work in progress.
Smith
You as a former industrial designer, you built that skill set, discovered this issue, this problem on that level. So I think I've wrapped my head around what you're doing, and I've written a little comment about how I think it is in a nutshell, right? So effectively what you're doing is aggregating and consolidating these artisanal producers into a sort of collective ownership model, which then allows them to benefit from economies of scale due to their size now, as an organization, instead of being an individual. You provide a layer of management, this business prowess you mentioned that allows them to raise capital, connect them to the Ikeas of the world, as you said already. And then in doing so, instead of going individual to individual like me, going from whale to whale, stopping this whale, stopping that whale, and the others, unfortunately, might not have been stopped. And then I've saved one whale. That's one nice goal of course. Now, I'm one drop in the ocean. Of course. Instead, I've, in your case as well, you've gone and solved all these different aspects, right? Because you've now created this collective where they can maybe get insurance, they can increase their wages, education. Is that sort of a good summation of what you've created?
Chhiber
Absolutely. And I love your kind of comparison on how each one of us is a drop in the ocean actually, though, as an organization, we have 200 people today, we are a drop in the ocean. We have impacted 500,000 lives so far in our 20-year journey. We have ensured 58 million USD of new market access for all our communities. Nationally, we have taken our model to Ethiopia. We really want to scale it across a lot of island nations and across Africa and we believe LATAM. And we also believe, frankly, Europe. Why not? Because there are a lot of outstanding communities in a lot of pockets in Europe still. But we are still a drop in the ocean. And I think from there comes the fact that it's important that we all do, whatever we can do, picking a strand like you pick one, one thread out in your lives. And I think that strand is passion. We have to find that point of interest and that will lead us and will always be drops in the ocean. But it's all these many, many, drops. So, we are great believers in co-creation and collaboration. I think that's also the way our models are going to scale because as an organization, we have the aim to impact 3 million women. In India, we need to impact 3 million women over the next ten years. And to do that, we have decided we don't have to scale as an organization. We also have to work with other organizations and enable them to do what we do. So, we've got many ways in which we are trying to not use the industrial approach to scale, that we don't become a 1000-person organization, which is like the typical way of doing things, but do them in ways that are more human and which are different and intrinsically trying to change the way business as usually happens. So, we have to walk the talk.
Smith
As Industree and Mother Earth began to grow, they realized that women in India have been underserved economically. Neelam speaks to how shifting their business model allowed them to be an incubator for female entrepreneurship.
Chhiber
We realized that as we were growing our model, we needed to work in areas which were completely new. So, we chose the area of natural fiber because there were very few large exporters in India or large manufacturers working in natural fiber when we initiated our work. Because we had to compete and export to large companies, we chose natural fibers. And natural fiber is an area that is dominated entirely by women. And when we went in, the Indian government also has huge programs to work with women after the entire microfinance movement with Mohammed Younis in Bangladesh. There was a global trend to work with women and India took on, took it on extremely well. So, all the women in our villages are formed into self-help groups. These are groups of 15 women who are taught to save and support each other. So, we have a very, very strong foundation at the village level. So, at Industree, we take that foundation, and we collectivize these groups into larger collectives, which are product focused. So, by default, we have always worked with women, and we continue to work with women. And it's been wonderful because when women earn more, when women are economically empowered, they are further socially empowered, meaning their voices being heard better in their families. And we hear stories all the time from our women about how they never eat hot food. We run very strong gender programs and I mean, what their rights are, how they should be treated at home, what they actually deserve. Because these are things so many women know nothing about at the village level. So, a classic example is about this one woman who was attending one of our programs as a member of the collective. She says she went home and told her husband, you know, it's not good that you slap me. You can't slap me. And the guy says, Yeah, okay, really? I didn't know that. And she says he stopped slapping me. So, I'm not saying every story is such a beautiful and comfortable story, but then also certain norms in society which have been built over the years, which are now being broken because there are these women who are earning, taking money back home and they are learning about the fact that they own a business. It's their collective business. There is a lot of sisterhood with the coming to work. And the young girl said, you know, this is a space for us to come and meet. We come and meet, we talk to each other, we share our problems. So, there is so much impact at so many different levels when you work with women.
Smith
You're tapping into an existing, somewhat innate human nature to fill and build clusters among our own and those like-minded individuals around ourselves. And it's great to see that your organization has tapped into that organically too instead of being exclusionary, because that's a challenge to this as well. Why do we have to be specific to one gender? And I imagine you, as you said, still work with all types of genders, but you've found this trend in artisanal producers in these female-run communities. I was curious about how you think about impact? How do you define impact?
Chhiber
I have two sons and I have a husband and I would never be able to do anything I did if it wasn't for the support I got from all the other genders around me. And we also ensure that we work with the men because I think going forward it's becoming very clear that for more gender balance, it's very important to work with multiple genders. I think inclusion is the key. For us, we are looking at intersectional impact. We are saying that look at impact across equity, climate and gender. I have a short form for it. It's called ECG, may not be the most appropriate, but it's easy to remember. So, we're saying that with regenerative economy building work, you are seeing intersectional impact across so many areas, with almost maybe marginally extra dollars that you put. So, to us impact now needs to be viewed in a more intersectional way. Believe it or not, globally it is not.
Smith
We don’t always think about how natural resources become finished products and make their way to us. But things like supply chain have an impact on people and the climate. Industree and Mother Earth’s model looks at production holistically and finds multiple areas where they can affect systematic change.
Chhiber
If you will look at root causes, you are going to have an intersectional impact. You have to look at it, even when you give out money. You have to be looking at more than one area or more than one goal. So that's one key way that we view impact. That the world of impact should not start siloing itself so deeply. That's number one. Number two, on impact, I believe that one should not look at the global south, especially in the area of climate change and gender and equity, which is what we do as just being recipients or beneficiaries. We are talking about climate mitigation. We are saying that these communities can also help you mitigate. They can help you build supply chains and value chains that are local. India, if it's going to be the third largest economy in the world, it's going to consume heavily. Is it going to import everything from China the way every other growing economy did? It's not great for the planet, is it? So, we need to encourage our communities to build our local regenerative economies and increase localization. And therefore, other than just climate adaptation funds, we need to look at climate mitigation funds. Because if we are building a low carbon footprint economy in India for India, if India is going to grow the way China did, the planet is doomed. Because we have the largest population in the world today, and we are going to be the next biggest consuming economy. So, the way people want to sell in India has to dramatically change. 70% of the action in climate is around the consumption of food, fashion and home. 70% of the action is there. So, the way people look at impact has to change.
Smith
So in terms of that intersectional inclusion growth that you're speaking of what's your approach to, say, an artisanal manufacturer produce, whether it be a solo producer, a small SME in a village that, talk us through, sort of, what is your approach to helping them reach self-sufficient business growth and inclusive growth?
Chhiber
This is the cue for our magic formula. So I think around 2013, we articulated something called the six Cs framework. This is something that has emerged out of our work over the previous 20 years. We need to enable communities to access the six Cs. So, I'll just quickly run through them. And these six Cs need to intertwine and be orchestrated. And if these things happen, you will see success right. Our first C is construct, which is the formation of the collectives, the production access to better production facilities and professional capabilities. So, all that comes in construct of the collectives. The second C is capacity, which is all the training of the communities, the hard skills, entrepreneurial skills and them understanding their rights. So that comes in capacity. The third C is create, which is the value addition piece that we do not want most vulnerable communities at rock bottom, just doing primary production, they got to move up the value chain. Our fourth C is channel, which is the market access - local, national and global. And the fifth C is capital, which is the working capital. Our groups, if they went to microfinance, they would get working capital at 24% interest. It is ridiculous. You are not in any way competitive. Therefore, we are building new forms of finance, whereby, they get finance at 12% landed at their doorstep. So, all that goes into capital. And the last C is connect, which is a digital framework. So, it's all kind of automated digitally. So these are the six Cs.
Smith
So, we had it. We had. That's all we needed. The six Cs. That's what everyone's been listening and waiting to hear. The golden nuggets. I hope you'll write that down. If not, go back and listen to it again. Thanks for sharing that. You keep mentioning consumption. You mentioned 70% of the problem around impact is solved through consumption, right? You've gone full circle because now we come from the evolution of your initial foundation into this world, Mother Earth. Mother Earth is a brand, an e-commerce company, I believe, selling artisanal products that are sustainably produced and organically engineered, that are supporting communities. Tell us a little bit more about why you decided now to go on the consumption angle with Mother Earth.
Chhiber
Mother Earth is like you said, an awesome brand. We launched ten stores in India and we have an e-commerce platform. The e-commerce platform is multiple brands. I'm sorry we had to make a platform. We can't do anything small. So, it's called flourish dot shop. So, if you are in the US if flourish planet dot com, don't ask me why we don't have the same URL but in India we are flourish dot shop and all our brands are available on that as well as multiple other conscious consumption brands. Mother Earth was always meant to be about products, good for producers, good for consumers and good for the planet. And I think the Mother Earth journey has been phenomenal in showing us repeatedly when we put products on the platform to sell what all issues crop up. There are huge problems in the groups, I mean, there are hundreds and thousands of these groups all over the world. But what problems they face to scale, like if they're working with 20 artisans, they need to work with 200. But for them to move from 20 to 200, they need access to the six Cs. It comes back full circle. So, they have a channel. They have a market now. But they need the capital. They need some digital tools to improve their productivity, quality, the ERPs, they need better design. So, we always go one step forward and we come back to the same foundational issues always anywhere, all over the world. So, with flourish, we are hoping to have a lot of groups onboarded from Africa, Latin America, but all those groups are going to need the sic Cs wherever they are. So, it's all about how we as Industree could enable through the Mother Earth retail journey, through the flourish dot shop platform journey and through the B2B sales journey. We know the markets are out there, but how do we enable all these groups and all these communities to get expanded into these markets?
Smith
You've organized those products. You're selling them on flourish. How can we as consumers, because I think many of us listening to this, are consumers, right. I mean, unless we go down there to support and advise and give management advice, as you've done already, it sounds like you solve that problem for us on the ground in these rural communities and these artisanal producers in India and elsewhere. What can I do? What can anyone listening to this do? Having listened to this to support this type of sustainable growth in our consumption.
Chhiber
As consumers, you are one of the most powerful, I mean, you are the most powerful people. Right. And I mean there are thousands of sites out there. So, all everyone I mean, now. The way, you consume. It needs to be a little more thoughtful. And all of you are doing it right. I also understand that everyone's hard-pressed for time. But please, there is flourish planet dot com. We've also launched through Catalyst 2030, a global network. We are part of something called Catalyst Markets. There's a good market. There are clusters and clusters of good-selling sites. So I do not want to plug in for one particular platform because I know,
Smith
Plug in and this is your chance. Use the platform.
Chhiber
You’ve got flourish planet dot com, and if you're in India, it is flourish dot shop. And other than that, please look. Look at good markets, look at catalyst markets. They are all out there. And look at the way you shop. I mean, give it a little more time, maybe a few more minutes and more patience, a little more understanding. And I think everyone is trying definitely to be price competitive. So, I think that's not an issue. Nobody believes that consumers should be doing good. Consumers consume. But if they consume a little more consciously, I think the pricing also is pretty okay. I don't think there are so many issues with that anymore.
Smith
Where would we find some of your products, some of your artisan-produced products in the mass market? Now, you mentioned IKEA. How do we know that they are coming from your, one of your organizations, from Mother Earth or they've come through the cluster networks with Industree.
Chhiber
So at IKEA, the product lines were labeled Industree Producer Transform Private Ltd. They have the labels. You are looking for the next generation because the next generation is the artisanal- produced handmade lights which are more regenerative in nature.
Smith
Neelam, thank you so, so much. This has been such an insightful and engaging conversation. I love the work you do. I will try to shift my consumption next time I go to IKEA. It's always fun there anyway. Follow the arrows around, get lost for a few hours and leave with something that you didn't expect. Thank you for joining us and go and check out what was it the two e-commerce platforms we need to purchase from.
Chhiber
Flourish planet dot com.
Smith
And Flourish Dot Shop in India. That's the one. Neelam, thank you.
Thank you for joining me on this episode of Better Heroes. You can learn more about Industree Foundation and Mother Earth on industree.org.in And you can learn more about EY Ripples and all of our impact entrepreneurs at www.ey.com/eyripples. Links are in our show notes.
Please don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast, Better Heroes wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also rate and leave our show a review to help others find out about the amazing work our impact entrepreneurs are doing. Before we go, we’d like to thank our podcast producers Hueman Group Media, who helped us bring this show to life (pronounced ‘human’).
That’s it for today’s episode. We’ll be back next week.
Music
Better Heroes is a project of EY Ripples, a global program to mobilize people across the EY network to help solve the world's most urgent social and environmental challenges. By extending EY skills, knowledge and experience to impact entrepreneurs on a not-for-profit basis and forging collaborations with like-minded organizations, EY Ripples is helping scale new technologies and business models that are purposefully driving progress toward the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals. *The views of third parties set out in this podcast are not necessarily the views of the global EY organization or its member firms. Moreover, they should be seen in the context of the time that they were made.
Presenters
Matt C Smith
Professional MC, Broadcaster & Host,
The Lunicorn
Matt C Smith
Professional MC,
Broadcaster & Host,
The Lunicorn
