Change happens

Change Happens Podcast

Conversations on authentic leadership

Hosted by
Jenelle McMaster

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In business you're either driving change or on the receiving end of someone else’s.

In this podcast series Jenelle McMaster digs deep into the mindset of leaders and individuals who harness the transformative power of change to unleash the new, the next and the unthinkable.

Through story and conversation we'll uncover unique ideas and insights to help you become the type of leader who makes sure change happens.

Jenelle McMaster

EY Oceania Deputy CEO & Markets Leader

Season 5

Robert Pradolin
Founding Board Member | Housing All Australians

Warning
This podcast discusses issues related to mental health and suicide which may be distressing for some listeners. If you need support, please contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Jenelle McMaster
Sometimes change can happen when a problem and a solution sit uncomfortably side-by-side, prevented from intersecting by a mountain of societal obstacles between them.

News Headlines
“Homeless people are being forced to set up camp at an alarming rate”

“Homeless numbers are up 23% in a year”
“… and while they’re out in the cold many buildings lie empty”

Jenelle McMaster
This was impetus for Robert Pradolin to take his 40 years of experience in the property industry to create an organisation that repurposed empty buildings to deliver on a fundamental human right – shelter for all.

Robert Pradolin
The thing that stuck out in my mind, in New York on one night there’s 78,000 people homeless. We do not want to become America.

Jenelle McMaster
This is a story about shining a light on a crisis that has become normalised. It’s about compassionate capitalism. It’s about giving back and reshaping the national narrative. It’s about educating, creating respectful unrest and galvanising collective collaboration. It’s about stories, it’s about heart and it’s most certainly about making Change Happen.

Hi, Rob, thank you for joining me on this episode of Change Happens.

Robert Pradolin
Thanks, Janelle.

Jenelle McMaster
Rob, you’ve had a long history in the property and housing space and all of that has led up, I believe, to where you are now as the founder of Housing All Australians. You’ve said it yourself, that it’s all felt very serendipitous, but I want to go back to the beginning. Tell me, what inspired your passion for housing and property?

Robert Pradolin
Well ever since I was three, when I built my first cubby house I assumed that all people knew what they wanted to do ever since they were small, whether it’s the cubby house or whether we build something underneath our parents homes and we, you know, stole some bricks from the place next door that was getting built and put the concrete in and did all that, and felt like it’s our little hideaway. I’ve always been involved with things as far as I can remember.

Jenelle McMaster
Amazing! You have had a very impressive 18-year tenure at Frasers Property, which was formerly known as Australand, and I imagine you’d learned many things about building things, as you’ve said, and about the industry during your time there. What are some of the biggest lessons that you learned from those experiences?

Robert Pradolin
Well look, I was quite fortunate to cover a whole gamut of different types, whether it’s a subdivision or medium density town houses or 60-storey apartment buildings. And during Frasers and subsequent to that I was also involved in Salvation Army housing, so social housing, disability housing through Summer Housing which is now called Liverty Housing. So, I’ve come across a fair bit of the housing continuum which gives me a little bit of an insight as to how the system works, and I’ve just found it’s just a slow evolution of learning. You know, I’m always curious and I almost want to see what things we can do better and when I was sort of selling, you know, housing, land and apartments to people who can actually afford to buy them, like most Australians I assumed our governments would look after our vulnerable people. And I worked out that they weren’t - and I’m in the industry. And I said, “I wonder how many other people don’t know what I didn’t know?” And that’s really started a little bit of the journey that’s culminated in Housing All Australians and, by the way, it’s not just me, it’s everyone around the country now. We’re in every State and Territory except the Northern Territory. We’re businesspeople wanting to help Australia through its housing crisis. So, it’s not the individual, it’s the collective that’s important.

Jenelle McMaster
Love that question, how many others don’t know what I didn’t know. Rob, very often we can just assume oh, maybe it’s just me that didn’t that, but I think there’s real power in thinking well, if I didn’t know it, there’s a good chance that others don’t as well. That’s a really good take away. You’ve sort of morphed into sort of the learnings and what sort of questions came up for you, tell me about the story of how you came to be the founder of Housing All Australians. It does seem quite extraordinary. I’m interested in hearing more about how that idea came about.

Robert Pradolin
Yeah, look, founder is a generic word that people always use and it always comes from ideas and then people get around you. But one of the pivotal moments was when I was having a cup of coffee with my daughter in Degraves Street in Melbourne, opposite Flinders Street Station. And a few days earlier there was a news story, where there was a story about the grand hall being empty for 10 years. And during that cup of coffee with my daughter a homeless person came up and was getting a bit of coins just to find a bed for that night. So, we gave him a few coins and after that I said to my daughter, you know, this grand hall’s been empty for 10 years and look what’s sleeping below – homeless people. I wonder how many buildings in Melbourne are empty? And subsequent to that conversation I sort of spoke to the City of Melbourne and Launch Housing and we started to look around for empty office buildings just to provide some shelter for people during the winter months. And we found a few – we were going through a few processes and then one day I got a phone call from the City of Melbourne and they said the ABC has heard about the idea and they like it, they want to run a story on it. I said, yeah but we haven’t found a building yet. So, like I always used to do, I always used to return the journalist’s call even though I may have had no comment, and I said, look, we haven’t found a building yet. He said Rob, don’t worry, because at the same time the ABC headquarters in South Bank was undergoing renovation, so he said let’s pretend that’s one of the empty buildings. So, we shot the story, it was on the air, next day I was on Neil Mitchell for talk back for half an hour. And then I started getting calls from everybody. From wealthy families all the way through to a homeless guy that found my on LinkedIn and said “I’m one of the great unwashed, thank you for trying”, and everything in between. And they said roughly the same thing – we know we’ve got a problem, just tell us what you want us to do.

And that started a whole set of ripple effects until someone that I knew was on a board of not-for-profit called CaSPA Care that had just built a new aged care facility in South Melbourne and the old one with 52 rooms were sitting vacant. And he said, Rob, is that something that you can use for your model? So cutting a long story short, we refurbished 32 rooms out of the 52 room facility with Metricon and their staff and subcontractors and we gave it to the YWCA for vulnerable women. Over 4 years those 32 rooms helped over 130 women stabilise their lives for no capital cost to government.

Jenelle McMaster
Wow!

Robert Pradolin
And now Hansen Yuncken are going back to do the last 20 rooms. They’ve started on site, pro-bono. We’ve got Mirvac doing it in St Kilda. We’ve got another charity called Bridge It – it’s all about young people under 25. We’ve got Henley Homes doing an old convent in Sandringham that’s owned by Mercy Health that they don’t need for 5 to 10 years. We’ve just finished 31 empty apartments by the Better Living Group with all the subcontractors and trades and material supplies – 31 apartments were sitting empty. Over $7 to $800,000 dollars’ worth of works, we spent $50 grand cash. And people were living it in now. So, they’re all occupied. I think there’s thousands of buildings across Australia sitting empty during a housing crisis and they don’t need to be built, because we’ve got material problems across the whole industry. So, next 5 years market will not build many housing because it’s not economical viable, yet we’ve got a housing crisis with our population increase, which I support the population but we have to house people. Homelessness is going to go through the roof. Why don’t we sweat our existing infrastructure better? And that’s why I think some of this idea is quite powerful. And already we’ve got two in New South Wales we’re looking at. We’re doing stuff with Uniting Church in Perth. We’re doing stuff in Tasmania. This is something the whole private sector organisations can get behind – every business has a role to play in helping our society through this housing crisis, because to be quite frank, it’s too big for government to solve on their own.

Jenelle McMaster
There is so much in that and the power of I guess the impetus of that story was the juxtaposition of an empty building with a homeless person there. It makes me sort of think about how many other juxtapositions are around us. You know, we have hungry people with food waste side by side, so I think there’s real power in starting to ask ourselves questions about how do we sweat assets in a better way to create distribution of assets to people who are in need.
You touched on, you know, this groundswell of people who sort of came forward to you and said, you know, we know we’ve got a problem, tell me what we can do. There’s so many problems around us, right? One of the things that I see is there are so many causes, there are so many issues, we often feel a bit overwhelmed with how to respond and where we respond. What do you think it was about this that made people gravitate toward you in a sea of so many things going on? What do you think you’ve learned about captivating the interest and the motivation of people to help?

Robert Pradolin
Look I think we have got so many issues going on in this society now that we’re seeing probably sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed. What I probably go back to is every person understands subconsciously that you need your fundamental human needs to be met. And that’s food and that’s shelter. And in fact we should start – because, again, it’s so confusing for our politicians. You know, where do you focus on? You know, where’s the political self-interest? But let’s get back to basics and say, look, without fundamental needs being met our citizens cannot function and become productive citizens towards society. So shelter to me is a fundamental human need that if we don’t supply we have unintended human consequences that manifest itself in physical and family violence, mental health issues, it flows on into justice areas, policing, long term welfare dependency. We’ve done economic studies or commissioned economic studies through SGS Economics that have shown the strong business case behind housing all Australians, rich or poor, it’s greater than any infrastructure. It’s got a cost benefit ratio on average in Australia to two to one. Most infrastructure projects don’t actually get that. So we’re saying forget calling it housing, this is economic infrastructure for a future prosperous Australia. And as business we’ve all got an obligation to lay the foundations for future generations, and that is what Housing All Australians is trying to do.

Jenelle McMaster
Amazing! Rob, you were the Executive Producer for the Australian documentary “Under Cover” that highlighted a problem which, I have to admit to your question of how many people don’t know this, I didn’t know that women over the age of 50 are the fastest growing cohort experiencing homelessness in the developed world. Staggeringly for me, I do find this statement 405,000 Australia women over 50 are at risk of homelessness today. In prepping for this interview, I did watch Under Cover, and I have to say I was profoundly affected by it. It was incredibly powerful, poignant, confronting – particularly the hidden nature of it. These women live in their cars. They stay on friends’ couches, they are on sofas or they’re in short-term accommodation. Can you tell me about that project and how that came to be?

Robert Pradolin
Well, all credit to Sue Thomson, the Director, and Adam Farrington-Williams is the Producer, because we, again serendipitously, came across each other pre-COVID. So, some of it was shot during COVID. You know, as a man when I discovered that fact that I didn’t know, I was actually ashamed. And Australia, we’re one of the richest countries, we keep on hearing that sort of saying, yet we’ve allowed women to sleep in cars and it’s growing horrendously. And we still do screenings around the country and men that didn’t know that, after watching the film, say I didn’t know that, what can I do to help you? So, it’s a bit of a galvanising call for everyone to actually watch Under Cover, the full version, because unless you don’t know or learn about what you didn’t know you can’t actually say how can you help. And it was really confronting – I still tear up when I watch that back.

Jenelle McMaster
Me too. It’s how I was, yep.

Robert Pradolin
And I’ve watched it so many times but to allow it to continue, well it’s our choice. And when I say our choice, I’m talking about the business and the community generally. It’s our choice whether we want to accept that or maybe – and this is where I sort of started – maybe there’s a few people out there that have similar views to me. Well, I’ve got to tell you, I’m overwhelmed by the business community and, in fact I’ve started to use the term “compassionate capitalism” because, you know, people that are in business are assumed to be all focussed on profit and greed and that is not the case. We are being badly branded as we’re all greedy bastards and there are at least 95% actually really care and the 5% in any segment is always the outlier, yet we’ve allowed it to tarnish the whole industry. So, I think we’ve still got hope in this country to try and turn it around but it needs a collective effort by business to help educate the Australian public about what they don’t know and through that, we create respectful unrest that generates political self-interest, and that’s the way the system works.

Jenelle McMaster
It’s a really powerful set of learnings because you, I guess, in understanding the architecture of the system and how to work the various nodes in the system – where power is, where money meets power meets influence, I guess that’s where you do make change happen.

Robert Pradolin
Well, look, profit and purpose are not mutually exclusive and when you align them they are extremely powerful.

Jenelle McMaster
Certainly, when I watched the documentary it reinforced, as these things often do, the power of storytelling. Tell me about some of the people you’ve me on this journey, maybe some of the homeless people. Are there any stories or encounters that spring to mind for you that have stuck with you throughout the years?

Robert Pradolin
Yeah, look, there’s one that sticks out in particular and, in fact, just thinking about it still makes me tear up a bit, is that in the lake House, which is the one I sort of mentioned to, when we were filming it there, there were a couple of women there and we had a bit of chat to them and one of them said “Can I give you a hug?”. And so she did, and she didn’t want to let go. So, we gave women hope. And I keep on remembering about the fact that she didn’t want to let go. And we’ve got homes for free. Now, I’m a very emotional person, you can probably tell by the sort of tone.

Jenelle McMaster
No, make me tear up.

Robert Pradolin
But, yeah, you know, sometimes there’s just that little gesture that makes a big difference to someone’s life. Even a smile can sometimes make a difference. And even stories of others, I’ll share one more story which, again, was quite impactful to the individual. We do the screenings of this around local municipalities and we had one in the Macedon Ranges in the Kyneton Town Hall and this time about I asked this local real estate agent to help us lease a house that a local councillor decided to lease it to vulnerable people, but I said can you do it for free because, you know, no one’s making anything out of this – and he did! And he did. So, I approached him during the screening – before the screening – and said, “Why did you do that?” And he said, “Rob, a couple of years ago this lady came in desperate, desperate for a house and we couldn’t help her, and two weeks later I read that she poured petrol on herself and burned herself.”

Jenelle McMaster
Oh, God.

Robert Pradolin
Now, that stuck in his mind. That is what he wants to do, how he wants to contribute and there’s a number of these stories around there that, if we start to share them, we can then do something about it. It sometimes feels overwhelming, but I’ve got to say collectively we can solve this problem. And it’s only through collective collaboration and true collaboration that we as a country can stop this happening for future generations. And, in fact, one of the things we’re doing, we’ve got this international speaker coming in September, called Gregg Colburn, and he’s just done a research about America’s housing system, and while that’s all different, the thing that stuck out in my mind, in New York on one night there’s 78,000 people homeless. We do not want to become America. And that is what drives us.

Jenelle McMaster
Wow, thank you for sharing that. You know, it is one thing to have a brilliant idea and, you know, have a whole lot of energy and enthusiasm around the idea. It’s another thing to execute against that idea and it’s clear that your passion and your resolve for the cause has been the driving factor behind Housing All Australians success, but I can imagine it hasn’t always been smooth sailing. I can imagine that you’ve come up against hurdles or obstacle after obstacle. Can you tell me about some of those obstacles that you’ve encountered and how you’ve gone about addressing them?

Robert Pradolin
And before I sort of do that it is a collective. We’ve got a national board and our Chair, Louise Rutten, is fantastic. We all dedicate a lot of time, so it’s just not about me.

Jenelle McMaster
I understand.

Robert Pradolin
Because some of the things, I’ve got to say, if I’m really honest, some days I do wake up and say “What the hell have we created here?” because you do have your bias. Sometimes you think you’re making progress and sometimes you think you’re beating your head up against a wall. So, persistence is the secret to that. As I said to my kid, you know, curiosity, belief and persistence – persistence is actually the hardest one. So the obstacles are always ones where people say well, you can’t do that. You know, why are you wasting your time for, you’re never going to solve the problem, it’s too big for us to solve. I said well, if it is too big for us to solve, that’s fine, but guess what? I’m not going to die wondering because unless you give it a crack, you’re always going to die wondering “What if?”. And that’s something I think all of the people that are involved with us across the country don’t want to sit back and say “What if?”, let’s give it a crack and see what happens.

Jenelle McMaster
Where does that conviction, or the persistence or that confidence to at least have a crack come from?

Robert Pradolin
That I don’t know because sometimes I feel, and I heard this in some of your past episodes, the “imposter syndrome”.

Jenelle McMaster
Yes.

Robert Pradolin
I do feel well I’ve had that all my life. And sometimes you wonder, you know, why people listen to you because, you know, you’re not that much smarter than anyone else to be quite frank with you. But then, you know, the thing that really kicks me on is when someone does reach out – I get a lot of people reaching out saying can I catch up and have a chat. And then you listen to how some of the things that you and the organisations able to do the – allow them to come forward and say “Can I help you?”. And that inspires you because that means that there is hope out there. People do care. And, collectively, we can make an effort. So that sort of picks me up from some of those down moments that we all have and it’s – I’d be a liar to say that I’ve never had a down moment on this journey because that’s just not the human being, or the human psyche. But more often than not it’s the persistence because you believe in something and ultimately, you know, when you’ve had a reasonable career and you’re, you know, comfortable, you want to try and give back. And that’s the position I think a lot of us are actually in.

Jenelle McMaster
Rob, this year’s theme for Homelessness Week is “Homelessness action now”. What does that mean to you?

Robert Pradolin
Well that really what we’re doing, you know? We’ve all got a role to play in these things and we don’t need to let it happen. It’s incrementally happening every single day. It’s being normalised therefore we expect it. But when you look at the long term impacts that we’re leaving for our grandchildren then we have to take a decision to stop that and I reference back the 78,000 people in New York. And once upon a time New York never had any homeless. It was allowed to be normalised, and that’s the problem. We have to draw the line, it’s like enough.

Jenelle McMaster
You know, it’s so interesting when I hear you say we’ve allowed it to become normalised. And I guess statistically if you look at it, that’s absolutely a true statement. That has been what’s happened and yet I found that very jarring to hear, because it was like well, definitely not. I don’t take it as expected, I don’t – but obviously that is what’s happening. The thing that struck me as I was looking at this and watching the documentary is the fact that it can happen on a dime, you lose your job, it’s been through COVID, you’re in a domestic violence situation, a whole lot of different reasons, the tenuous nature of the situation. You can’t even put it in a bucket, nor should you by the way, it says oh, there’s a certain profile of person that would happen to. The pervasive nature of this, the likelihood and possibility and, in some cases, probability that it will happen was really profoundly eye-opening for me. I don’t know whether there’s the normalisation element that is happening but then there’s the registration of that in your mind to really make that hit home.

Robert Pradolin
There’s a lot of sliding door moments.

Jenelle McMaster
Yeah!

Robert Pradolin
There’s people out there that are working that are one or two pay checks away from homelessness. And this is why, yet again, we want to bring the American chap over because it’s all about research, because he’s dispelling some of the myths that homelessness it’s a result of drugs and alcohol. Well, that’s not based on his research. It’s reflective of house prices. So, unless we look at the whole housing continuum and ensure that our citizens have a roof over their head, we’re going to have long term implications that can’t be turned around in 30 seconds like politicians might want to expect it. It’s going to take decades if we start properly with a long-term plan and it must be bipartisan because this is in the interest of all Australians. But the thing that keeps me up at night in some respects, and all of us have, or most of us have kids, is that because the additional cost to future generations is so high and the first economic report, we commissioned established that by 2032 there’s going to be an additional $25 billion per annum in today dollars needed for the unintended consequences. With all the pressures on governments that’s probably going to be too much to add to the ballooning expenditure elsewhere. So, what’s the consequence? Reducing the level of care for those vulnerable people. So, what’s that? Our Australian values are going to get watered down. It’s going to change the future society for our grandchildren in a way that we probably as individuals if we could transport ourselves would feel quite unsafe compared to what we are now. So, in my view, we are heading for a lose-lose scenario, unless we reshape the national narrative with a combined collective support by the community to create this respectful unrest on both sides of politics so that political self-interest is triggered. Because that’s the only way that our system will actually function properly.

Jenelle McMaster
What have you learned about engaging different stakeholders? Understanding self-interest, collective purpose, how you appeal to all those different factions to get people to work together to align to care and to drive outcomes? What’s – what have you learned? I’m thinking about all of us in worlds that don’t operate in the same way that you are, but we all have different experiences with engaging different stakeholders, so I’m wondering what the takeaways are?

Robert Pradolin
I’ve learned that we can’t afford to wait for government. And they are a key stakeholder, there’s no question about that, and we’re always happy to engage with government at State, Federal and especially local level, but we’re not prepared to wait for them because the politics of the way our system works, there’s three and four year windows. If it sits outside of that it’s a bit hard to get them to focus on anything other than getting re-elected. Some of the Ministers have said to me several years ago in a one-to-one meeting that Rob, unless those people vote for it we aren’t going to do much about it. So, recognise the realities of life. Don’t wait around and always bang on their doors because they don’t know what they don’t know either. Make shit happen, which is what our motto is. And guess what? If it suits their self-interest they’ll come along and say, how do we help you? From a democratic perspective, if the voters decide to actually support someone or reject someone based on the polities they need to be fully informed, which is why education is such an important element to it, which takes time. And people say, “How can we help?”. One thing you can do is share the story. Share the story and get other people to understand, get them to watch the documentary, learn and say how do we collectively help. And we had a situation where we finished these 31 apartments and from a company based in Coburg that had all their staff come out to start the demolition – this is the Better Living Group. And as part of that we had a celebratory barbeque. And we had the local pastor of Coburg to come down and supply all the food. He said, look, I don’t think it’ll make any difference at all, but I’m helping in my small way to say thank you for those that did. Well, we’ve all got a role, and his role was to actually celebrate and thank people in his way. So, I’ve got faith in the Australian public, they are very, very generous in times of crisis. Every single business I think has a role to play, whether it’s using their networks, using their products, using their staff and services. Someone that can charge $6,000 dollars a day for their services or do it for free, it’s their choice. And we’re saying, come on board and provide for free and let’s see what we can do without government.

Jenelle McMaster
Have you been able to recruit the next generation in the storytelling and the contribution to this at all?

Robert Pradolin
We’ve started to engage. In fact, the YIMBY movement we’re quite close to in sort of sharing our stories, because ultimately they’re the ones that are going to suffer the consequence of the lack of housing and there’s obviously a bit of a tension between what the Yes in my backyards versus the No in my backyards and I’ve been involved in a number of developments that the outcome after we’ve had so much objection and people were – come out and said afterwards oh, if I would have known that it would have looked this good I wouldn’t have objected. People naturally have that negative reaction, which I can totally understand, and our obligation is to try and teach people or show them that it’s not as bad as you think. And then let the reality of density done well, we must increase our densities in our suburbs where the existing infrastructure sits. We can’t keep on expanding the urban growth zones indefinitely. We have to sort of create an acceptable density where we can grow as a population, provide the fundamental human need of shelter as well as the food because ultimately we just want to live a happy life. It’s not that complicated.

Jenelle McMaster
That’s right. And so, is it as simple to say that success for you is every single Australian has somewhere to live? Is that what the nirvana is here?

Robert Pradolin
Success for us is closing down.

Jenelle McMaster
Ah, nicely put. Put yourself out of a job.

Robert Pradolin
Yep.

Jenelle McMaster
Rob, I’m going to wrap it there. I think this has been such a, I don’t know, there’s all sorts of emotions I feel in talking to you to be quite honest. I fell disappear, I feel great hope, I feel inspired to act and in fact when you and I first spoke I did exactly what you said you want people to do is they ask the question how can I help? It’s exactly where I went as well and I hope that people who listen to this do feel exactly that way, they feel a completion to act, if nothing else please anyone listening to this watch Under Cover, it is a powerful evocation of the stories that demonstrate the criticality of this and I imagining the little kid building the cubby house, if he knew then what he knew then what he was going to be building for so many others. You know you’ve been building cubby houses on a much bigger scale for so many people and offering life lines to so many that have needed it. I love the question Rob about how many others don’t know what I didn’t know and opening up the education and understanding that shelter is a fundamental, universal human right, that we all have the right to expect and we all have the ability to help make it happen. And an understanding that making change happen isn’t easy but at the heart of this is curiosity and belief and persistence because there are times that you’ll run into those obstacles, there are times that there are naysayers, there are times when it feels incredibly overwhelming. If you need to use those times to ride off the hope of others or to remind yourself of a story - a hug that someone didn’t want to let go, a smile that keeps you going then so be it, because this is, as you say, a really powerful, conscious, compassionate capitalism and long may you continue to create that respectful unrest that drives the intersection of purpose and profit to effect the kind of enormous and significant and much needed change that we have to have.
Thank you so much Rob.

Robert Pradolin
No, thank you Jenelle. It’s been a pleasure to share some of our thoughts and as you said we can all make a difference. We just have to make the decision to say I want to be a part of it.

Jenelle McMaster
The Change Happens Podcast from EY, a conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

End audio recording

Leisel Jones OAM

Jenelle: Even Olympic gold loses its shine. What happens when everything you set out to achieve, that you worked around the clock for, that consumed your entire being ends up just feeling like a fleeting moment? Sure it’s something that you look back on with pride, but it ultimately gets put away in a box. What then?
Leisel: It sits in a bank safe and I never look at it again. I thought it was going to change everything and it didn’t. Go, oh yeah and move on - next thing.
Jenelle: This is the story of Liesel Jones. An Australian icon, Liesel is regarded as one of the world’s greatest ever female swimmers, winning 7 world championships titles, 9 Olympic medals and 10 Commonwealth Games gold medals.
Audio of commentators at competition: Jones is absolutely blitzing the red line.
Gold - a World Record, Leisel Jones.
Jenelle: Liesel is now a published author, media personality and celebrated radio host. In this interview, Liesel talks about her journey as a young girl in the public eye, winning gold but losing her spark, making her decision to retire, finding her spark again and the lessons she’s learned on identity, purpose, success and what winning really means.
Hi Liesel, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Change Happens.
Leisel: Thank you, I’m really excited.
Jenelle: Yeah me too. Before entering a 12-year career as a professional swimmer, you were a child and swimming was just a fund hobby, a social activity. What motivated you to make that switch from recreation to competition?
Leisel: I think for me it always was about recreation. I loved that social side of things. I really enjoyed swimming with my friends and having my best friends around all the time was probably what kept me in the sport for so long. So that transition from just a child swimmer and doing what I loved into a professional, the transition was just purely based on making Olympic teams. So I didn’t consciously make the step to become a professional swimmer but it just kind of happened naturally.
Jenelle: Nice way for it to happen. You really wouldn’t have understood too much at that point about how the world works. There you were, age 14, as part of the Olympic team, surrounded by well a whole lot of amazing athletes and a whole lot of adults as well. What was that like?
Leisel: It was very difficult because the next person in age to me was actually my roommate and she was 18. So in terms of a 14-year-old and an 18-year-old, that’s a big gap.
It’s a big gap and you don’t really have a lot in common and it was 18 and then it was probably in your 20s. Like we had people like Suzie O’Neill who was at the end of her career, retiring. Haley Lewis – the changeover was really handy because I had so many great role models on that team of people who showed me what the Australian swimming team was all about, and the values that we lived and died by really and we took on the world and at that time we were really dominant in the world and so for them to pass those to me was such a great honour to be a part of that.
Jenelle: Well tell me about some of those role models. Who were they and what were some of the lessons that you learned from them?
Leisel: Suzie O’Neill was definitely one of the most iconic mentors on that team. And not that she had an official role because she had a job to do at the Olympic Games which was to win a gold medal which she did. But she led by example and I think that was the big thing. Someone like Suzie who’s very introverted, really likes to keep to herself, goes about her own business, puts her head down her bum up, and gets the job done. She was a great person to have and to look up to.
Jenelle: I’m holding up your book here. You talk in your book, Body Lengths, about the early experiences of having your very public actions misconstrued. And one of those was being dared by a friend to do the peace sign on camera if you were to win a particular race, which you did. And I think that you did that for a laugh, a bit of a private joke, but it was interpreted as a “V” for Victory as if you were lording your win over others. You talked about learning quickly to censor yourself, to become grey, to talking cliches and sports speak and just say what was expected of you. What do you think now when you look back on that time and that unconscious or perhaps it was conscious adaptation of yourself then?
Leisel: Yeah it makes me really sad to think that I did have to change everything because the innocence was completely lost in everything that I did really because I was still so young and the peace sign was literally a dare. That’s all it was. It was so simple, yet media made it into this big thing and then people read that and so people think and make assumptions about you as a person based off what they read in the paper when it’s actually not true. So I found that really hard to deal with and you just become this really vanilla version of yourself which is very safe. You don’t want to say anything, yeah, and you just tag the motto, you tag the company line which is you know, I’m always happy, I’m always pleased with that race. You can’t be disappointed and that’s just not the truth. We’re very high achieving people and we get really disappointed when we’re .05 of a second off the time we wanted. So don’t be surprised if people have got emotions about that because that’s their life’s work and people are going to be disappointed.
Jenelle: I think that’s a point well made. Like you have to apologise for the very thing that is spurring you – is the win – and then when you don’t having to pretend that that’s not what you were there for.
Leisel: Yeah. It’s so interesting.
Jenelle: That’s incredibly weird, isn’t it?
Leisel: It’s so weird. And that’s an Australian thing too. It’s really not represented around the world like that. The US and
Jenelle: You mean like a tall poppy syndrome here?
Leisel: Yes, very much so. Yeah and the US are the polar opposite to us. They are loud and proud of every achievement. They shout it from the rooftops and very proud of emotion and people having a personality. It’s celebrated most of the time and we have the polar opposite, you know. Even look at like someone like John McEnroe, his massive outbursts playing tennis and he was a hero in America because people were like – yeah, like this is amazing. The spectrum of human emotion is massive and if we just play in the vanilla bit in the middle it’s pretty boring.
Jenelle: And then how did you deal with that pressure of having to, I guess, subdue that part of you or maybe put on a self deprecating kind of tone where perhaps you were incredibly proud of where you got to or incredibly disappointed with where you got to. How did you deal with hiding that part of yourself or changing that part of yourself?
Leisel: I very much got used to it in the end. I didn’t consciously make that change but just over time I just learned to be smaller, smaller and smaller, and not make such big comments or statements or emotions and it just eventually died. I think that vibrancy just went away, just became just a very boring version of myself.
Jenelle: I’m going to come back to this theme because I think it’s incredibly powerful. I’m hoping that we get to a part where we talk about how we revived the colour in you.
Leisel: Yes, yes.
Jenelle: But I want to just stay for the moment on the drive. Like as you say, you know, you were compelled to win. In your book – I’m going to read a couple of sentences from your book that really stuck with me. There’s a really powerful paragraph where you wrote,
“Let me tell you this. I don’t get up at 4.00am every morning and swim 12kms a day just to be there. I don’t do three-hour gym sessions just to be there. I don’t do weights until I want to cry, I don’t eat like a robot and I don’t give up school and my friends and being a normal kid, just to be there. I do it to win and when I don’t win, when I come third in an Olympic final that I’ve the fastest qualifier for, when that happens, it hurts so much I want to die.”
Twelve years on from writing that Leisel, tell me about your views on winning now.
Leisel: Yeah, well it’s probably very different now. That was a lifetime ago and I feel like a very different person now to what I was then. But the drive was real and the desire to win an Olympic gold medal outweighed everything else in my life at that time and I put all my eggs in one basket to win that and as you just mentioned I sacrificed so much. I put everything on the line for that moment and to me at that point in my life a bronze medal was the most disappointing outcome I could have asked for. I was there for gold and I was extremely disappointed and upset with myself and I felt like I let my whole country down and let my coach down, I let everybody down including myself. So to be disappointed is probably going to be expected, yet I was severely criticised for it.
Jenelle: I do wonder whether the expectations that everybody else that you just named then, your coaches, your family, the country, are as high as yours were for yourself.
Leisel: No, definitely not. No way.
Jenelle: It was a loaded question, I’m quite sure.
Leisel: Well the expectation on yourself is far higher than anyone could possibly imagine because we work so hard, we focus on ourselves the entire time. So I expected nothing less than gold.
Jenelle: Ok, so then conversely what happens when you did win gold? How did it feel? Was it what you expected, was it the high as high as what you expected, did you find all purpose and value and meaning when you finally had the gold in your hand.
Leisel: Oh gee, I wish. I wish that was the case. Unfortunately, it doesn’t feel like anything you think it’s going to feel like. I expected it was going to be roses and glitter and everything was going to be wonderful, and I thought it was going to change everything about my life and unfortunately, surprisingly it doesn’t. So an Olympic gold medal is – it’s a great thing. I’m so glad I achieved it but surprisingly it does not change everything about your life. You just go on the next day and other people have won gold medals and life continues.
Jenelle: And so then what was that realisation like? If you were so, so driven by it then you achieve it multiple times by the way, you achieve it, but it doesn’t bring you the golden and glitter and rainbows and unicorns that you thought it might have, what happens then?
Leisel: It sits in a bank safe and I never look at it again. So it’s funny because that’s where you think yeah everything is going to change but when it doesn’t you think – aww I worked so hard for something that I thought was going to change everything and it didn’t. That’s like life I think. That was a hard lesson to learn. And look I am very appreciative I ever did it. I would hate to leave the sport and have not achieved it, cause I was more than capable of it.
Jenelle: For sure.
Leisel: Yeah, that would be a horrible thing to live with. But in terms of it not feeling like it, I think that happens more often than not. I think a lot of people have a very similar feeling in their everyday life. It’s funny because I’ve – and I put this in my everyday life now. I’m looking at buying a brand new car and I’m really looking forward to it, it’s so beautiful and it has all the lovely things. All the beautiful trimmings and it is – it’s a little bit out of my reach but I really want it. You get that new car and that new car smell disappears after what three or six months or something and then it’s just like every other old car that you get used to and that’s the car that you have and it’s funny that I like refer to it like that because an Olympic gold medal is a very rare thing and it’s a lot of work to put into, but it was a little bit out of my reach. It was very elusive. It was very fancy to have and it was a nice thing, but you get used to it after a while. You just go, oh yeah, and move on, next thing. So it just keeps – the goals just keep moving. And it happens in everyday life. We’re all guilty of it. Loses its shine after a while.
Jenelle: I guess when you were swimming, winning gold was how you measured your success. Now that you’re not in a competitive sport, what do you use as your personal measures of success?
Leisel: Who I am as a person is a big part of that and how I impact others’ lives, is so important to me. That I’m a good friend, or I’m supporting other people, or that people enjoy having me in their lives is just probably one part, because so many people are hugely successful. They’ve won multiple gold medals or – but they’re just an awful person and so for me, yeah, I just – I really want to be just a great person and my friends couldn’t care less about the medals that I have. They’ve got their own medals. I would hate to be coming out of my career with all these gold medals and not one single friend. Yeah being a good person is my aspirations. It’s very simple, but it’s hard to achieve.
Jenelle: It’s interesting that your measures of success now are something so intangible, as you say, when your life as a professional swimmer was incredibly tangible.
Leisel: It’s funny that the things that are tangible get put away and you never look at them again and you work so hard for something that you can hold in your hands and other people get so excited to see yet for me I just – it’s not that I couldn’t care less – I can’t remember the last time I looked at it. So to strive for so long for something that I could hold in my hands that gives me a little bit of joy but probably more satisfaction than anything, but what gives me the greatest joy is sitting with a group of friends that have had dinner, I’ve been laughing the entire time, we’ve been talking about great memories. That leaves a smile on my face for weeks afterwards. So it’s really interesting yeah that you work so hard for things that are just things. We fill our lives with things yet it’s the feeling, it’s the internal that we really should be striving for.
Jenelle: Ah so powerful. So you retired in 2012 after your fourth Olympic Games. You took – I think it was a total of nine Olympic medals at that point in time, three of the were gold. After spending more than half of your life at that time being a professional swimmer, how did you make the decision to retire – I mean you’re still very young – how did you make the decision to retire? What was that process like?
Leisel: The decision to retire was actually probably the easiest part out of all of it because I really hated the sport towards the end. The last 12 months I knew that I was retiring. I counted down the days until I finished. The Australian swim team had changed immensely from what I saw with Suzie O’Neill in 2000 was a completely different team in 2012. A lot of people were a lot younger. I was the Suzie O’Neill of that team and I was struggling with people that didn’t really want to be guided or live by the values of the swim team. Everything had changed. So the decision to retire was actually really easy and what makes it most easy now is I have no desire to go back. So many people say - oh do you wish you could still swim? – No. Oh I thought I was going to get an exclusive comeback interview. – No, definitely not. I’m very happy watching from the sidelines. And not because I hate the team at all but just when I was participating I didn’t want to compete anymore. I’d lost my competitive edge. I had nothing I wanted to achieve. I had done everything I ever wanted and more in my sport and I thought I’ve got a life to live. And also the transition is very tricky so a lot of people are very scared of that transition out of sport and so hold onto it for as long as they possibly can just to delay the transition.
Jenelle: Well let’s talk about that transition cause you have spoken before about feeling lost and grappling with identity and purpose in the years following your retirement and that’s notwithstanding your readiness to retire. So like you said, you’re ready to do this. But you have talked about that transition period of a loss of identity. Can you tell us a bit more about what that was like for you at that point in time.
Leisel: I probably still struggle a little bit with the transition now and I’ve been retired for 12 years. That sense of identity because that was really moulded for me that sense of identity when I was young. I started on the team when I was 14. It was probably given to me that identity of being an elite athlete and performing and doing all of that. Whereas I didn’t really get the chance to discover what I really liked or what my hobbies were. I didn’t have hobbies because I didn’t have time to have hobbies. I had no idea who I was as a person and that’s still a journey I’m on today at 38 years of age that I’m still trying to figure out what I like doing and who I am as a person. So that transition makes it hard when you’re trying to figure those things out. The reality is you still have to make money. So you have to get a job doing something and you don’t know what that is because you have no job experience and I liken it to people that leave the military because we do very military style training. My sense of timing is very to the minute. So if I say I’m going to call someone at 9.00 o’clock I call them at 9 on the dot. And that really rigid military style training is just ingrained in us. And so when we don’t have that, and we have the freedom, we actually don’t know what to do in that freedom space. We have no clue how to fill our time. You just feel very lost most of the time and you feel like you’re blindly just feeling your way through retirement. No one guides you. No one tells you how to do it. It’s hard.
Jenelle: And everything’s prescribed for you. Exactly what you’re eating, when you’re eating, when you’re swimming, how many laps of that you do. So decision making is taken out – away from you.
Leisel: You don’t have to decide anything. Yup it’s all written for you. So – and that was a nice way to live, because like tell me what to do, I’ll do it. I’ll do it to the best of my ability. But no one tells you in life how to do things or what to do and even simple things like feedback. You don’t get feedback in real life whereas swimming
Jenelle: Oh it’s so true.
Leisel: Yeah and people are really scared. So I’ve done an organisational psychology undergraduate degree and learning about feedback and giving people feedback. So people are very happy to receive it and take it but they never want to give it. They don’t want to give any negative feedback, whereas I thrive on that, because that’s my whole life. I need negative feedback to improve. So I’m so used to getting that most of the time. This needs to be better, this is not good enough, improve this, move this, go here, do this. Whereas in real life you don’t get that at all. You can beg for feedback and no one will give it to you because they’re like – oh we don’t want to give you negative feedback. So – I live on that.
Jenelle: Well I would love to hear any advice you have. It’s something that we’re trying to drive much more in our organisation as well, and how do people see that not as a negative thing but as a constructive thing and how do people see who are giving it, see it as a kind, helpful process to deliver feedback as well. I mean any advice for those who are like – yeah how do we drive this – how do we make the conditions safe for people?
Leisel: Yeah, it’s probably there’s a lot of trust involved. So if you do have a mentor or a coach or someone that you work with they probably know you a whole lot better or a manager that understands who you are as a person. Because some people are open to feedback and some people are not. But if you’re someone like me who’s begging for feedback. I really can’t stand, it’s my pet peeve, is the sh*! sandwich. You know when they give you something good then they give you the feedback and then finish off.
Jenelle: You’ll be like just get to it.
Leisel: Please don’t – but just get to it. What can I improve? Like give it to me right between the eyes. I need to know. Don’t waste my time with but you’re doing this so well. Please don’t. Just tell me what I need to improve on. But that’s my style. That’s not everybody’s style. Some people are much more sensitive and need that sh*! sandwich to remind themselves that they are doing things well. So I think it’s individual. But the best thing you can possibly do is know or understand the person you’re giving feedback to. As a manager you should know what their personality styles are like and how they work. And that’s what some of the best coaches I’ve ever worked with and Rowan Taylor is an example of that. Just knew which buttons to push for which people. We would have sometimes 30 people in a squad, he knew individually how each person reacted to feedback or improvements, and he adapted himself to all of those. Yes it’s exhausting and it’s a lot of work but sometimes that’s how you get the most out of people.
Jenelle: You mentioned your undergrad degree in psychology. One of your earliest coaches I know in your career was not a proponent of sports psychology and was not backwards in coming forwards with his views that seeking psych support was for weak people, for losers not winners. You’ve separately talked about your mental health struggles which I expect both of those things might have factored into inspiration for why you studied psychology. What were your biggest takeaways from completing that study and what have you personally taken forward from it?
Leisel: From the study itself I’ve probably learned more from working with sports psychologists and working through my own issues and if I look back in my career, my first coach who said that sports psychologists was for the weak and that only losers were the people that used sports psychologists was probably the most damaging thing that happened throughout my career because that’s when I needed a sports psychologist the most. I was so young, I was only 14 when I made the team. I needed guidance and I needed help more so than ever at that time. I would have been fine when I was at the end of my career because I was older and I had learned But I had no support, absolutely nothing when I was young and that has set me up for failure really, the whole entire time. I could have saved myself so much upheaval in my brain because I could have had some help and a bit of guidance when I needed it most and I think that’s pretty disappointing that someone can have that impact and make that decision for someone who’s so young and so impressionable.
Jenelle: Yup I can relate on that, I actually had a – I used to be psychologist in the military and I used to get back in the day, a long, long time ago, I used to get introduced as everyone folks, the psych’s here, you know what we say, dry your eyes princesses but she’s here to have a talk to you. That’s how I used to get introduced back in the day.
Leisel: Are you kidding?
Jenelle: Nope, nope.
Leisel: Unbelievable.
Jenelle: And I mean we’ve come a long way since then but I can relate to that mentality and then getting introduced like that. Very hard gig to then you know work with people under that kind of intro.
Leisel: That’s an uphill battle then isn’t it, because they’ve already got them offside.
Jenelle: It is. Already making it unsafe for people then to stick around and talk to the psych who’s there to help.
Leisel: It’s so funny because I’m really, obviously really passionate as you are about psychology but that – I find that very fascinating that we have come a long way but yet we’ve still got so far to go in terms of how people can embrace our strength through understanding emotions but whereas people think emotions are weak and whatever. It’s like – uhh no. If you can manage your emotions, you are unstoppable. So yeah. And not just managing but understanding them.
Jenelle: I want to come back to the point that you made earlier which I said I’d come back to. You said early in life you learned to hear the message that you needed to make yourself smaller and vibrancy died within you. How did you make yourself bigger because you did. You have. I can see how many things you do. You’re a well known media personality, you’re a published author, you’re a radio host, you’ve had stints in corporate management roles. How did you revive the vibrancy and make yourself bigger?
Leisel: It took a long time and it took a lot of trust and a lot of work on myself. I’ve done plenty of work with psychologists and coaches and spiritual and all that sort of stuff on myself to discover who I am as a person. And to grow into that person is really hard because it’s kind of like that lobster analogy where, you know, the lobster grows into its shell and once it gets too big for its shell it sheds it and then it grows another exoskeleton on the outside and keeps growing that way and you just slowly keep doing it where you just outgrow your shell and then you build a new shell and then you keep outgrowing and keep moving. It’s probably just a bit like that, you just get a bit more comfortable and get a bit vulnerable and you go – oops I was okay then, I’ll try it again. So keep just expanding in that vulnerability of – oh I’m still okay. And the more you realise that the feedback you get is I’m still okay, you just keep growing.
And so it’s been a long time in trusting the process and being more myself is so much easier than it is anything else. So if you try to be someone else it’s so exhausting, or try to be the perfect person or whatever and I’ve just found life is just so much easier when you just truly are yourself. Don’t feel like you need to apologise for taking up more space or being the biggest, loudest voice in the room. When I started I certainly was extremely shy and I was probably naturally a little bit shy but as I’ve grown I’ve realised, no I actually am – I’m a pretty loud person and I probably actually quietened myself a little bit at the start.
Jenelle: You seem like a really fund, goofball, if I’ve to be honest with you.
Leisel: I am, yeah, totally, and that’s what I’m like and that’s why working at Triple M works for me because I get to be that person every day and I get to be as silly and push the boundaries a little bit and my office is so loose. Sometimes I think this is so me, I love this.
Jenelle: Oh that’s so good. Well Leisel we have the, of course, 2024 Paris Summer Olympics coming up. At EY we’ve got actually four elite athletes potentially going to the Olympics/Paralympics. Give us some background on what they would be feeling and going through in this lead up.
Leisel: Yeah, well as we record this the trials are actually happening. So it’s a lot of nerves because you’ve got to make the team. That’s the be all and end all. You can’t be nervous at the Olympics if you don’t make the team. So it’s very cut throat. Yeah, they’ll be pretty nervous in the lead up to Paris. But it’s exciting, because once you’re on the team you’re like – well I can’t lose here because I’m on the team – and Paris I think would be a wonderful place to have an Olympic Games. I’m just really excited for them.
Jenelle: And what’s your advice to not just the EY athletes going up but all athletes going up for it? What’s your advice to them in this trial period?
Leisel: Yeah I try not to give them too much advice because they’re so competent. They really know but the most important thing is just to have fun because it’s really serious and they put so much pressure on themselves. But it’s those little moments where you have a laugh with your friends in the massage room or the training partners that you travel with or sitting on the bus and it’s those really simple things that they’re the memories I have. And a lot of people always ask me – oh what do you remember about the Sydney Games – walking through the crowds outside some of the events or getting McDonalds cookies which were free, and I was just so excited. It’s those things that you remember. I remember nothing about any of my races – and the friendships. You know, I’ve got great competitors from the US who I’m still friends with or like Croatia, German friends. It’s really cool.
Jenelle: Aww that feels like a nice full circle moment actually when you said you started out doing competitive swimming cause of the friendships sort of almost led you into it. That’s really beautiful. So last question for you. You’ve done and achieved so much in your life, I’m curious to know what’s next for you?
Leisel: I actually have no idea. I have no five
Jenelle: That’s exciting.
Leisel: It is exciting. I have no five year plan. I’m just loving work at the moment and just plodding along. It sounds boring but
Jenelle Aww you’re happily plodding – no, no I can see the joy in your face and I can see a real contentment there which is so fantastic. Such a pleasure to talk to you. I have taken away a lot of things and I know our listeners will all take away a lot. I think if I reflect on the conversation, you talked about from moving away from the achievement of things. In fact there’s a lot of doing in your earlier life. Doing great races and achieving goals, and you’ve moved to much more of a relational measure of success. What kind of person are you, how can you give back to others, what kind of impact can you have on other people, and it’s funny when I think about that shift from doing to being.
When you look back on your life and you’re talking about – it’s the moments where there is the warm down or the getting the cookies at McDonalds. It’s all very relational. So I think there has been that strong thread for you throughout. I think it’s powerful to know when to make a change in your life. That’s a really critical moment and so many of us will hold on to status or things that we think we should be doing, well after we’ve fallen out of love with it or the things that we were drawn to are no longer there for us. So I think there’s real strength in knowing when to make that call.
We talked about the power of giving feedback. Feedback is a gift and so too is the gift of knowing how to deliver it in the way that different people can receive it well in the way it’s intended. We talked about no shame and in fact there’s great strength in seeking mental health support and guidance when we need it. The ability to manage your emotions is a super power and something that we can all benefit from, and it seems to me that, you know, you’ve been known as Lethal Leisel in the past and I would say Lethal Leisel the Lobster – how’s that for a new one for you – constantly outgrowing your shell, and I think that growth seems to keep occurring through more and more exploration of vulnerability and the strength that comes with that and not making yourself smaller and stop apologising for being yourself and stop chasing perfection and rather just think about how you can impact others. So there’s some of the things that I took away from our conversation and really, really enjoyed the chat.
Leisel: Yeah, great, thank you so much.
The Change Happens podcast from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
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Prof. Dr Megan Davis
Pro Vice-Chancellor Society | UNSW

Jenelle McMaster
Hi, welcome to season five of Change Happens. I'm Jenelle McMaster, and I have the great privilege of speaking with influential and interesting leaders on their experiences of leading change and the lessons that they've learned along the way.
This podcast is called Change Happens, but what about when it doesn’t? Today, I spoke with Professor Megan Davis, a constitutional lawyer known for her work on creating the Uluru Statement from the Heart and for her advocacy work for the Voice Referendum. That's the referendum that didn't get passed. It's the change that didn't happen.
News Headlines
“Australia has said no.”
“…overwhelmingly rejected a Voice to parliament.”
(Prime Minister Albanese) “This moment of disagreement does not define us, and it will not divide us.”
Jenelle McMaster
In this conversation, Megan shares the highs of being the first indigenous Australian to be elected to a UN body, the highs of working on the Uluru Statement, to the deep woes of the no vote. Megan is very clearly a constitutional lawyer, a deep thinker with that kind of lawyer-like detachment that you need when you're taking on this kind of structural reform, except that there are those moments. You know, the ones that really get you, when you're reminded of just how deeply it impacts lives.
Megan Davis
“Aunty, I'm really scared.” That's the first thing she said to me on the referendum day. You didn't go into this thing to make children feel unsafe. We did it to give them a better tomorrow.
Jenelle McMaster
In this episode, Megan takes us through her journey from lawyer to leader and discovering the power of leading not just with the head, but also with the heart.
Well, hi, Megan. Thanks so much for joining us on Change Happens.
Megan Davis
Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Jenelle McMaster
I've heard you described a number of different ways. I've heard you described as shy, stubborn, very measured, an introvert, someone with a great brain, someone who, you know, when they speak people listen. I know that you're the middle of five children and your sister Lucy has described you both jokingly, and I dare say lovingly, as bossy and a nerd who carried the constitution around when you were a kid. Tell me, how would you describe yourself?
Megan Davis
I don't know. I mean, I suppose all of those things. Lucy calls it nerdy, but certainly I see myself as a deep thinker who takes indigenous rights and Australian democracy very seriously. Definitely stubborn, but I carry my opinions lightly, meaning if there's a plausible argument for me to change my position, I'm not an inflexible thinker. So I will change when faced with evidence, but yeah, I mean all of those things and none of those things I guess.
Jenelle McMaster
I understand. What was it about the Constitution that could capture a 12-year-old's mind?
Megan Davis
Although we weren't a very political family, meaning neither of my parents were particularly politically involved, we were definitely schooled in Australian politics and part of that was an understanding that decisions made by Australian politicians have a really acute impact upon indigenous populations. The Constitution is an important part of that because it contains the rules about what the Commonwealth can and can't do. So, if you don't understand that rule book, it's hard to understand how the system works.
Jenelle McMaster
But as a young girl walking around, there must have been something that intuitively or inherently you grasped about that. That I imagine might not have had these kinds of words applied to it, but it ignited something in you back then.
Megan Davis
Probably my mum, who she, she's really brilliant and you know, we laugh about it now, but I believed everything she said. Everything! There's one family story where she used to say to us if you kids drink your Milo or cup of tea with a spoon in it, she’d tell this story about a family in which the mother’s eye popped out and rolled onto the table when the spoon... Anyway, I believed it right until quite late actually, a bit embarrassing on my part. But she has all these kinds of funny myths. She should have authored fairy tales or cautionary tales, but she, I suppose she was really articulate in not just Australian politics, but global politics. I remember being in grade 6, 7, 8 debating reasons for World War One and World War Two over the dinner table. Like she was just a very worldly, intellectual kind of person. But also Dad's family at a very young age, you know you, you start talking about things like Protection Act. You start to realise that lengthy period of racial segregation that our people experienced and you talk about different reserves and missions, Aunty this and Uncle that visiting from this reserve, this mission. At an early age, you're pretty cognisant of the fact that these are laws that are passed to restrict your movement, restrict your freedoms, and maybe it was just that's what I was meant to do, meaning I was attracted to the notion of rules and laws and how they're used to oppress people but can be used to redeem people as well.
Jenelle McMaster
With all those conversations, and I've heard as well you talk about discussions with your family, about giving voice to the voiceless amongst all those conversations. Was there an end game that you and the family sort of talked about what you hoped to achieve or see change?
Megan Davis
Maybe no. You know, she used to talk about speaking up for people who can't speak for themselves. And I'm not diminishing that people have a voice. But it's a metaphor for power and power structures that I think it wasn't just about being Aboriginal, growing up it was about being poor. So that underclass very rarely have advocates who advocate for the rights of the underclass, because people just assume if you're poor, you're poor because your family didn't work hard enough. Well, when in fact we know that there's all sorts of reasons why people are poor or impoverished. If we look at Aboriginal people, you had generations of people that worked for 60, 70 years, 80 years for some people, as servants and their wages that they earned were stolen from them by the State. In the early ‘80s, Joh Bjelke-Peterson, he built highways and hospitals using the money of Aboriginal people who had worked their entire lives on the railway, you know, as domestic servants, et cetera. So part of Aboriginal intergenerational poverty is that property and income were taken from people. There's a complexity around poverty.
We lived in a family that was a housing commission family where mum didn't have savings. If something went wrong, we had no money to draw upon. We had no one to help us. And that feeling of vulnerability never leaves you really. It always stays with you. For people who just don't have options, that really drove that idea of how do you - how do you find a voice in a world that doesn't think you deserve one?
Jenelle McMaster
If I just fast forward a bit, one of the many memorable achievements that you've accomplished was becoming the first indigenous Australian woman to be elected to a UN body. What did that kind of milestone mean to you sort of coming from that background you've just outlined there? What did it mean to you and how did it then impact your career?
Megan Davis
So, it's actually the first indigenous Australian because people think Mick Dodson was the first, but he wasn't elected. So, Mick was appointed. And so, I was the first indigenous Australian to be elected to a UN body. It was, it was really important. I mean, I started at law school looking at international human rights law, that's when I first went to do some UN work at UN conferences when I was working for an Aboriginal organisation in Southeast Queensland, and then in my final year of law school received a UN Fellowship in Geneva. So, I started that work at a very young age, then came back to Australia and continued to participate in the drafting of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And then I did my PhD in the area, and my masters in the area, and it was an important trajectory.
The position came open and Jenny Macklin was the Minister who asked if I would like to be Australia's candidate. I am still eternally grateful for her because if it was any other Minister, it would have been an Aboriginal man, a “usual suspect”, who got that position and probably not qualified to have that position. So, I was really grateful for the Minister, to actually know that I was qualified in this space and that she chose a young Aboriginal woman to do that role, and so I ended up serving 12 years all up. It's been a huge piece in my professional career, that sometimes I forget about actually, when I think, when I'm doing all the all the Uluru work. It's been good post referendum to be able to kind of return to some of my international roots.
Jenelle McMaster
You certainly have made a huge contribution in that period of time, but you are, as you make reference to the referendum, your moment of change came from the work on the Uluru Statement from the Heart. You ran many dialogue sessions during that time, you spent a lot of time with government, a lot of time with community. What did you learn about engaging stakeholders through that?
Megan Davis
I learnt a lot from the first process, the expert panel process, because we were as appointed as experts. I learnt a lot about making sure First Nations people are properly included and consulted on what those options are, otherwise it's all decided for them by other people and in that consultation, I learnt about how governments, when it comes to Aboriginal issues, are really unimaginative and they choose the path of least resistance, and they call it political pragmatism. That's politically pragmatic. That's what we’ll get up. And there's no time for them to reflect, nor do they want to, on the merits of a particular option. I learnt a lot about governments and politicians in this process as well. I don't think they realise they're patronising people. Even people like Aunty Pat, who's my colleague and is 83 years old, they almost infantilised citizens and say, look, you don't understand how politics works. But citizens have changed the world in many ways beyond the ballot box, and one of the lessons post-Uluru was very few of them had read the Uluru statement or the report, and so we were always grappling with a political elite that were illiterate on what Uluru really was about.
Jenelle McMaster
How do you keep going when you are trying to drive that kind of change and there is double talk, I guess, around the need to be pragmatic or the cultural illiteracy? How do you keep yourself motivated and continuing to push forward?
Megan Davis
It was a difficult year last year and then you get to the end of a process, which is an earnest process, that so many of our people participated in. It's frustrating. You just have to keep smiling. It's tough, partly because you feel frustration that, yes, you're in the door advocating for this but so many of our people desperately needed that change, particularly in relation to disadvantage and poverty. And having many, many people speak on your behalf, it's frustrating for them. You keep going. The seven months after the referendum were really difficult, but you know, I feel really energised by the 6.2 million who voted yes. There's so many kind Australians stopping me everywhere who said they voted yes, that support the reform and that's what keeps you going. Like, I feel energised to keep pushing on.
Jenelle McMaster
You have lightly touched on the seven months period there and I think about that huge set of roller coasters that you've been on, whether it was the high of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, the low of the rejection from the Turnbull government in 2017, perhaps the high again of it going to referendum, then as we all know that the referendum was ultimately unsuccessful. Let's just start there with the day of the vote. What was that like for you before, during, after that day?
Megan Davis
I mean, before, we were just very nervous because the polls didn't look great. I was more worried about my staff, about the Uluru use and the impact that the campaign and the referendum result would have on my nieces and nephews. I'd really thought about it as a constitutional lawyer, but I do recall the morning, so my little niece, Mimmy, who's named after me, she’s called Megan. But Mimmy said, “Oh, can I sleep in auntie's room?”. So she slept in my room and we had this big, beautiful king size bed and I remember waking up in the morning, because she's got the most stunning, snow white, cascading curls, and I woke up and her little face was kind of staring at me and the sun's coming through and she looked at me and said “Auntie, I'm really scared”. Like, that's the first thing she said to me on the referendum day, “Auntie, I'm scared” and you know, that was awful cause you didn't go into this thing to make children feel unsafe. We did it to give them a better tomorrow. I hadn't really thought about the impact on all the jarjums on Monday who had to go to school and to be faced with an Australia that was seemingly hostile to them. And for so many little kids who've grown up in an era where they learn language, they do welcomes or acknowledgements, you know, kindergarten and those early years are really precious, but have been magnificent in teaching. They learnt about the stolen generations, they know about NAIDOC, they know about reconciliation, and we've seen them grow up through this. It never happened in my time. And then I felt like, you know, are we undoing all that good work because now they go to school knowing, at least in Mimmy's electorate, most of the mums and dads voted no. It was tough to see the impact on the community. That's been the hardest is to see how hurt people are.
Jenelle McMaster
How have you navigated those feelings? What's the conversation that you had with Mimmy?
Megan Davis
Her mum was a really big – she ran her organisation in Southeast Queensland called Mob 23 so they were really actively really involved in the campaign and she's really cleverly walked them through it. I think most Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families kept their kids home from school for the first few days, if not week. And we've spoken, they understand, you know, obviously in our family we do a deep dive analysis based on the data about what went wrong and you know we don't want them just running around this world saying well the vote went down because the nation's racist. I don't think that's why the vote went down. And so we work with them to make sure they understand in a nuanced fashion what happened. You know, post referendum our people just hug their kids and held them tight. My oldest brother kept his kids home for three days and they flew the flag and watched Aboriginal movies or listed to Aboriginal songs and I think that's what the community did. We got each other through it. It still hurts and I think many people feel really hurt and rejected. I just stayed at home. I mean, I was obviously over tired, so I slept for about 7 weeks, but it's a bit different from me because it's so intellectual in my head and I lived it 24/7 for 12 years. You know, it was a lot of work.
Jenelle McMaster
I wanted to ask you about that because a lot of what you've talked about is the, you know, the head part, the mechanics of the Constitution and how the architecture works, and then most moments that you talk about with Mimmy and the community is heart and what have you learnt when you think about driving change around the head and the heart and what needs to happen to engage both?
Megan Davis
I've learned so much. In the early days of the dialogues, you know, a lot of the old people kept saying reconciliation was the wrong framework. And I remember, I've heard it so many times from elders over the years that I just kind of switch it off because, you know, mentally in my head, I'm like 1991 the Act was passed and then there’s Council did it’s work and then brought out its recommendations and John Howard said no in 2001 and then, you know, I've got this trajectory and I can think it through intellectually, but I started listening, which is the point of dialogues, and really hearing what the elders were saying, which was reconciliation presupposes that there's a relationship and that we're actually just reconciling a friendship that had a conflict or attention. And they kept saying, but we're not reconciling because we haven't met. I learned a lot about listening and not being such a know it all in that space and actually what the elders were saying was probably true. The choice of the centre of the country was about the heart. I don't want to keep crying through this interview. That was a big lesson about love. Our elders have been through so much. I was so blown away by their generosity and the dialogues, because they're the ones that went through compulsory racial segregation. They're the ones that ate, you know, rice and flour and peas with weevils in them. You know, some of our senior elders now are kids who grew up in that protection era. They've had their children removed, they've grown up away from family. The things that they've seen and experienced and they come together and like all the young generations, angry and the older generations saying, let's offer an olive branch to the Australian people. You know, we need to coexist and we need to work together and they need to belong to our culture and we need them to feel like they belong to our culture because they grow up here and they - they're born here and they die here. I mean, I remember sitting there in some of the dialects, just going holy, what? And it's the most extraordinary thing. And there was so much love put into those dialogues and so much, you know, there was anger, but there was a lot of love and care about the messaging and about the fact that Australians need to feel a part of this Aboriginal footprint because it's part of them too. And that was Uluru, it was meant to be an invitation to Aussies to feel a part of us. I learned a lot about emotion and heart and maybe switching off that part of your brain, which is so structured and only thinking about acts and only thinking about courts. It's why it was so heartbreaking to see it just deteriorate into this terrible campaign that suggested that these people, who weren't the usual suspects, they were just ordinary people from communities that were picked by their own people, were derided as being elite. You know, people in low-income jobs, low satisfaction jobs. It was heartbreaking, but I did learn a lot about softening, I guess, my approach to listening and law reform and change.
Jenelle McMaster
Megan, when we spoke in the lead up to this, you mentioned that you didn't see yourself as a leader and that, you know, somehow you found yourself in a role that was being asked of you or you were in that position. Tell me about why not and where you are with that now and your, I guess, comfort with that mantle.
Megan Davis
I remember the day Turnbull ruled out a referendum and the Voice and I remember one of my lawyers, we were driving to an award or something and she just burst into tears. We had to pull the car over because she was driving, so it's really dangerous, and I remember thinking to myself, I've been up all night on the phone to Noel and Pat worried about the reform and I thought oh, I haven't thought about the impact it has on my team and how they must be feeling because they are all young and they've never experienced the Australian government saying no. And they just didn't understand why he would just say no. And I remember consoling her and thinking this is what leadership is, like, this is what it means to be a leader. I became a leader in that movement, I guess. That obligation, we felt very strongly about it. I'm in a position where I can do that as an academic, whereas most of the mob have to go back to work. They don't have the time and the resources to devote 24/7 to structural reform. Yes, I'm there because I'm a constitutional lawyer, but you also do become a leader in that space. And I'd like, you know, I’d like to get to that place where I don't always have to explain and justify, you know, to, you know what I mean, hey, like?
Jenelle McMaster
I do, I do.
Megan Davis
Not always having to say I'm not a leader, I'm not a leader and I'm sorry and apologising all the time.
Jenelle McMaster
What's next for you, Megan?
Megan Davis
Next is a chair at Harvard Law School. So, I'm teaching a couple of classes on recognition and another class on indigenous peoples in international law. And we'll just spend, you know, the year there regrouping. We've started a listening tour, so we're already out talking to our 6.2 million Aussie friends. We've been doing a lot of research on who those friends are. They're very staunch in their vote, which is terrific. They're deeply saddened by the loss. It's important and we can see many, many issues happening across the Federation of the past seven months, where, you know things would have been different if the voice to parliament had have got up. For example, the new Rapid Review Violence Against Women Committee doesn't even have an Aboriginal woman sitting on it when Aboriginal women have been at the forefront of activism and advocacy and law changes in relation to violence against women, we’re still being not included. We're still not at the table, and in fact that particular group appointed an Aboriginal man to the committee who will now speak on behalf of Aboriginal women. It's urgent. We're not closing the gap. It's just, it's not happening.
Jenelle McMaster
Megan, if I was to ask you what you feel most proud of as you look back on the many things you've done, what would your answer be?
Megan Davis
Uluru. Yeah, the dialogues I'm really proud of.
Jenelle McMaster
And the legacy you want to leave behind?
Megan Davis
Well, I hope at one point, we will have some form of constitutional recognition. It's the only thing we haven't tried as a nation. The only thing. We want to leave a better Australia, right? And if that means more Australians feeling a part of Aboriginal culture and more Aboriginal people feeling a part of Australian culture, that's the kind of nation that we want to nurture.
Jenelle McMaster
I think that's well said, and I hear in you still a lot of fire, a lot of hope, a lot of positivity and lot of determination in there and I think that probably harks back to those attributes that you opened the interview with, you know, you said you're stubborn but a flexible thinker, and I've seen that borne out with the way that you've been operating here and I do feel like I've gone on a bit of a journey with you in this discussion when you were talking about structural reform. I could see that deep thinker that could really understand the framework of change that needed to happen and then towards the end, as you were talking about your learnings and the emotion, your whole affect moved with that and it was beautiful to see. Thank you for sharing with us those moments, you know, vulnerability never leaves you. I could - I could hear it in your voice as well from your upbringing to now, the fire of democracy is built to change. And so therein lies the impetus to do exactly that. And I think that, you know, your willingness to lean into the hard stuff, not take the simple, superficial answer, but move into the complex and really get to the heart of it, the power of listening, the power of driving community to create solutions, the realisation of how head and heart have to work together. The last thing I'll say, Megan, is that I hope that you never from here on in, apologise for being a leader. Be proud that you are. That's exactly what you are. And so doing it all day, every day out there and long may that continue.
Thanks for your time, Megan.
Megan Davis
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Jenelle McMaster
The Change Happens podcast from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
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Simon Crowe
Founder and Managing Director | Grill'd

Intro: Hi, welcome to Season 5 of Change Happens. I’m Jenelle McMaster, and I have the great privilege of speaking with influential and interesting leaders on their experiences of leading change and the lessons that they’ve learnt along the way. Not many people would be able to say that they’ve built something out of nothing and stayed true to their vision and purpose the entire way through, but I think that’s very much something that is true of today’s guest, Simon Crowe, Founder and Managing Director of Grill’d. Grill’d is known for its quality burgers and sustainable food practices. Simon had to overcome many obstacles to get to where he is now, most noticeably a public court battle with a former co-owner and business partner. Simon says, “It was the most horrendous thing that’s ever happened. It was really challenging and certainly unfortunately, it made me distrustful of people which is just not my normal stance”. This was a really surprising conversation for me. Simon is so hard on himself. You’ll hear in the first half of the conversation that he keeps going to the things he hasn’t done well and this is all despite him building an unbelievable successful business and having mastered the formula for successful burgers and franchises with almost 175 stores. He’s on a mission to liberate burgers from badness. Hear, hear, I say - and thankfully, for all of us wannabe an actual burger eaters, he’s absolutely achieving this. Yet his humility, his self-judgement and his vulnerability is palpable throughout the discussion. I took a lot away from this interview. I hope you enjoy this chat with Simon as much as I did.
Jenelle: Hi Simon, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Change Happens.
Simon: Pleasure Jenelle.
Jenelle: Let’s start with where it all began for you. I know that your father owned his own business. Tell me, do you think it was always destined to be that you would own your own business.
Simon: Yeah, I do, actually. Undoubtedly, travelling to dad’s pharmacy after school, walking there with my sister, waiting for my mum to finish serving customers and then doing the delivery rounds and dropping off the prescriptions to the old people’s houses and saying hello and them telling me how much I had grown since they’d last seen me. They always ran their own business. I watched dad in the local community. I saw him serving that community with pride and probably didn’t know what a lot of friends dads did in the workplace. So yes, in short, I thought one day I’ll have my own business, that was inevitable. The question was “what was the business to be and how long did it take to find!”
Jenelle: Well that’s a great segue to the next question. So I understand that you’re a person who’s had lots and lots of ideas, created many many business plans and I know you had other ventures before Grill’d but given food wasn’t necessarily where you had your expertise, what was it about that idea that made you want to have a crack at that.
Simon: I often think it’s time and place. I have written business ideas. I looked at pet insurance when I was living in the States. I looked a myriad, of silly ideas, including one where it was a hand car wash before car washers were popular. The business idea took a long time to find. Knowing or determining what to do. If you had of said “food” to me some years before, I would have said “no way, that’s not my piece.” I would certainly focus on a consumer or direct-to-consumer business but the food piece was quite scary upfront and really it was a time and place. I was almost 30, I’d been looking for business ideas. I knew that I had sacrificed personal relationships and I hadn’t bought a home simply because I wanted to be eligible or able to take risks without consideration for others. So again, eventually I think I got to the point of contemplating ideas and never executing or jumping into the deep end and, at some point, with a bit of daring from my friends, I did.
Jenelle: Okay! So, the friends dared you. What was the aspiration at that time? Was it to be the little burger shop that was quite good and successful or was there an aspiration to be Australia’s largest burger chain or the world’s largest burger chain? What was the plan?
Simon: No, I think I’m driven less by outcome and more by intent and that’s both a strength and a weakness I might add but I was at a company called Procter & Gamble. I left there in a hurry to have my own business and went to work directly for a business founder and entrepreneur called Clyde Davenport who owned Davenport Boxer Shorts and it was a wonderful learning experience and then I went to Fosters International and worked out of Melbourne, almost with the best job in the world, I was selling my country in a bottle. I thought when I was with Davenport, that success would be having enough money to travel overseas once a year. It would be about creating a lifestyle where I could be proud of what was created but I always saw it in the parlance of a small business, never a big business. Success for me wasn’t properly defined except that of determining and driving my own train. At Fosters, I’d seen a round of redundancies, not once but twice. It was interesting to see some of the guys who I respected almost duck their heads trying to hide from the redundancy bullet, if you will, and I thought I don’t want to be that, I want to create my own destiny and actually control my future. So it wasn’t about a big business, it was about a business and pleasingly then, Grill’d gave the opportunity for scale but that wasn’t part of the proper consideration up front. It was to have a million dollars. I didn’t know if that was pre-tax, post-tax, cash-free. It was just a million dollars.
Jenelle: [laugh], one million dollars!
Simon: [laugh], yeah yeah exactly [laugh]. It sounds so silly, doesn’t it!
Jenelle: No, it sounds awesome. You’ve got to start somewhere. Tell me about that sentence that you just said “you would drive through intent over outcome”. Can you explain more about what you mean by that.
Simon: I think, you know, I have a fear of failure. That’s because there’s two things. One is I think at heart, I’m a perfectionist. Two, if setting a goal and that goal is not achieved, then it feels like failure and interestingly, I probably live in that perpetual state of glass half empty because when I set a goal, I generally set it to be pretty big and therefore the chances of getting there and achieving it are often slim but for me that’s not the issue. My view is if the goal is big enough, then achieving one third/one half or two thirds is generally better than not actually starting or reaching for something that’s more challenging.
Jenelle: So that doesn’t sound like a fear of failure to me! That sounds like you leaning into some big hairy audacious goals.
Simon: Look, I think there’s a truth to that in that I can see opportunity or I see opportunities sometimes as big. When I get to committing to that, there’s a cliff that you need to stand on before you jump and I need to be pushed off that cliff.
Jenelle: So that push for you was some mates daring you. Is that what the push looked like for you?
Simon: Yeah absolutely. A lot of my friends have known for a long time that I wanted to have my own business. It’s why I went to Davenport. It’s why I went to Fosters International. The intent was to bring back ideas or concepts from overseas. My friends have been with me all the way through, daring me to do it because at some point they just said “you just have to commit” and a wonderful friend of mine, Andrew Barlow”. I had my 50th just over a year ago and I read the letter that he wrote me from that time because I’ve kept it and it was very much around “we believe in you, you haven’t got anything to lose but ego, you’ve got all the skills, you’ve got the capability. Just do it”. But it really goes back to having people that care about you, who believe in you and I was very fortunate that I had that situation.
Jenelle: That’s an incredible friend and friends around you that did that and I think that’s a fantastic story. The story starts to take a little bit more of a sour turn now unfortunately. You did start Grill’d with two partners but not long after you started the business, one of your partner exited and a few years after that, your other partner took you to court and ultimately ended up leaving the business too and that was quite a public court battle and given what you’ve just said then, all of that background about fear of failure, about trust, about being pushed over the cliff, about people believing in you, what was that time like with those two partners. It feels particularly poignant now when I understand a bit more of your background there, what was that time like for you?
Simon: Look, those two gents are called Simon McNarama and Geoff Bainbridge. Simon left on June 30 2010. I had to sign contracts at about 11.50pm that night. My wife had been hit by a car during that day and I still remember the hospital saying to me “I want to let you know that Sophie is still alive” and they were first words they said before then explaining that she was in a pretty banged up state after being hit by a car when she was out running. Signing the deal for Simon at that point was put into context of this thing called business is not that important because I had nearly lost my … or she wasn’t my wife then, my fiancée and we had a little kid who was nine months old, but Simon and I had some real challenges. He was fundamental to the business early because he is such a great operator. He’s an accountant. He was based in Melbourne and he had done it before, that is, he had built a small business and had made that business very successful, I might add. So we had a challenging time for a while there and, no surprise, my fiancée, his wife, who was also a friend of mine, those two got together and said “what’s going on here, this is ridiculous” and Simon is still one of my best best friends. For Geoff, that was actually 2015. We had an enterprise agreement issue at one of our franchise partners, understandably that has a halo affect across our brand and Geoff wanted to exit the shareholders agreement because he said “I don’t want to be involved in the business anymore”. We’d been challenged and/or frictional for a couple of years. It probably wasn’t a surprise and then he chose a course of action and took me to the federal court. It was the most horrendous thing that’s ever happened. It was really challenging and certainly unfortunately, it made me distrustful of people which is just not my normal stance.
Jenelle: I’ve got to believe that you have built back trust with people over time. How did you do that, it would have been an incredibly confronting period of time for you.
Simon: Yeah.
Jenelle: How did you run the business during that time, how did you build that.
Simon: Look, there’s a couple of moments in our journey and every business has significant challenges. Nothing is an easy or linear path and certainly over time, you learn to ride those bumps differently and better but that was the first significant episode for me and for Grill’d because we’d had a wonderful ride in terms of publicity, in terms of consumer appeal, in terms of momentum and when you’re small and you’re on a growth pathway, you almost feel invincible and a wonderful mate of mine who’s the CEO of AESOP, Michael O’Keeffe. He also wrote me a wonderful letter at a point in time, you know, and this wasn’t entirely linked to the Geoff scenario but it was about businesses hitting a plateau when once upon a time you were defined by energy and excitement, potential and momentum and then you actually have to realise “who are you and what do you stand for”. Well interestingly, that plays true to me through the Geoff scenario because I felt compelled to protect my people from all that was going on. I therefore tried to wear the stress and the challenges of a significant and ongoing legal dispute on my shoulders and I asked the guys to keep running the business. If I had my time again, I would have changed that dramatically. I would have brought them into the fold. I would have asked them to support me. It would have been a collaborative thing together, albeit I still didn’t want to or wouldn’t want to burden them too much. I thought it was my fight to have, not theirs but upon reflection, when I alienated myself and/or withdrew, that wasn’t good for my relationship with them either, in terms of trust, in terms of working together. So all of that played through and Michael’s email to me about “well, you better know yourself”, that came to pass through and out the other side of the Geoff scenario and that was for me to say “well who am I, what do I stand for as a person, let alone that of a professional” and if you believe in being vulnerable, if you believe in being trusting, if you believe that people need to have a voice and if you believe that genuinely, there are wonderful ideas across the group, you just need to listen. I started to find myself again, but it wasn’t easy. It took a long time. I can talk about it now without there being emotion associated with it but it certainly and another future event, but those two events certainly shaped me meaningfully. It made me stronger, it made me more resilient but I think that they did take a chip out of the … the duco of the car and that chip was one of trust.
Jenelle: Thank you for sharing that Simon. I think that’s incredibly … you continue to be vulnerable in sharing that. I can still hear the emotion in your voice and I think they’re always really powerful questions to ask anyone to ask themselves at different points in their life, who am I, what do I stand for, what do I believe in. How would you articulate the answers to those questions. What did you learn about who you are?
Simon: I know Jenelle, it sounds silly. I used to be, I think, very evolved for a 27 or 30 year old on an emotional level in terms of engagement with others and clear in my own self identification. I think as time has passed, I’ve become less about Simon the person and more about Simon the businessman which isn’t, I think, balanced or something I should be celebrating. I’ve got an opportunity and that’s what Grill’d has given me, optionality. I’ve just got to learn to take it but the optionality is there for me to actually make sure I’m not just a decent or reasonable businessman, but a great person and I sometimes think that I’ve let one lead and one lag and who am I. Well I know in a business sense who I am. I’m resilient, I’m perseverance, I have a drive and I have a desire to actually be proud of what we create but that’s not who I am as a person. I hope I’m considerate. I hope I’m loyal. I hope I’m there for people when they need me and I hope I’ve actually got patience but no doubt, my patience and my time, my connection to my friends isn’t what it should or could be and I’ve let Grill’d either be the excuse or the reason for not being engaged enough with that friendship group. You can’t keep taking cookies out of the jar and not put them back in. So I’ve got a finite amount of time to make change to the way that I lead and operate so I can be a better person, not just a reasonable businessman.
Jenelle: It sounds like those are the things that you are going to get to but I know that you have been doing them. So what are the things that you are proud of that you have been doing, in light of all of those hard lessons and hard battles that you’ve had in there. What have you been doing to get the balance of Simon of the businessman/Simon the human to where you feel really comfortable.
Simon: I don’t think I’ve been doing enough. I know that going to the gym makes me better physically and mentally and yet I’m not doing it properly. I know that I get energy when I actually engage with friends, particularly one on one. So I’m not doing enough of what I should do in that regard but in terms of being a servant to Grill’d I feel proud of that. I feel like I’ve got to make sure that ego doesn’t get in my way relative to having founded the business. You know, do I know everything! I know Grill’d really well but I don’t know everything and in fact I think our business could be far more successful. How do I put a CEO into the business so I can play to my strengths and again, I was very very fortunate that I went to a business moons ago called Procter & Gamble and I hope that Grill’d can become a place a little bit like that, changed my life for good and I’d like to do that for lots of people that are in our business.
Jenelle: In what way did it change your life for good?
Simon: Look, I was young when I joined Procter & Gamble. I’d been rejected by numerous companies including P&G, coming out of university and I had called them to ask why I didn’t do so well in the interview and then six months later, I called them after I got some better results at university because I didn’t engage with university the way that I should of and then the gentleman that answered the phone, the guy that interviewed me, his name is Simon Fraser, he’ll always be important to me. When I said “look, I’d like to be reconsidered because I’ve now got some better marks, is there a possibility of doing so”. He said “that’s great initiative”. Simon, about … I’m going to say 2010, six years after Grill’d had started rang me up and said “Crowie, did I ever tell you what happened that morning”. I said “no mate, what happened” but he said to me “sometimes things happen for a reason. You rang and only half an hour before that, a graduate who was supposed to start on that day said she had pulled out and therefore there was a space available which hadn’t been available had you called the day before. So you know, I’m not being fatalistic, as my wife says trusting in the process of life. Procter & Gamble then taught me the benefit of brand, how brands stand for something meaningful, how they pass the test of time and how they cross borders internationally and they also taught me how values are inherent in the business that wants to be something that’s beyond only selling a product and those learnings have been with me ever since.
Jenelle: That’s amazing and I have to tell you that is exactly how I got my break into my working career …
Simon: [laugh] … really!
Jenelle: … I also got rejected from a job and like you, I called back to get some feedback and as it turned out the person had declined the offer, maybe an hour before I called and that’s honestly set me up in life but I would say, I know you say you got lucky, but you know, the definition of luck is where preparation meets opportunity. So your preparation, you went back and did your studies and then the opportunity came. So let’s not deny both of ourselves some kind of hand in that [laugh]. I’m really glad Simon, that you talked about the things that you’re feeling proud of. This year is Grill’d 20 year anniversary. You have almost 175 locations, I think, across Australia. Your first international restaurant in Bali in Indonesia. You’ve given away millions of dollars to charity, you’ve invested in sustainable businesses and anyone who’s listening to this who doesn’t know about your background could be forgiven for now realising the extent of that success but despite all that growth and all that success, you’ve managed to stay true to a motto that you’ve shared many times “get big and stay small”. I can hear that as an undercurrent in what you’ve been sharing with me today but what does that mantra mean to you and why is it important to you?
Simon: There’s a rational reason and an emotional reason but I’ll try to deal with you the rational first. We’re in the burger landscape and the burger landscape is arguably the most popular food category in the world.
Jenelle: Oh!
Simon: Yeah! The category has historically been dominated by multinational fast food players who are at the bottom of the rung relative to food quality, food integrity and service in terms of engagement. So we have a brand that tries to play to a local environment because we believe that we can make a difference in local environments, to communities, we can actually engage with them and that’s what my dad did and my dad did that exceptionally. I still remember every Christmas, he would close the doors the day before. All of his customers would come in and they’d come in throughout the day and have a glass of champagne and have a chat with dad. So the first time I had sort of seen him in mere type role and it was lovely to watch because I could see how he was positively impacting them and their lives. So there’s a vocal piece that is fundamental to our business. That’s about staying small. There’s a rational piece that says we’re never going to have the money that McDonalds does and McDonalds defines the burger landscape because they spend so much money. So don’t try and compete with goliath head on, make sure you’ve got your own style, you know who and what you stand for and make sure that therefore you play to your niche. Now I don’t want our niche to be small. I want our niche to be big. You need to be able to engage people’s hearts in business. I think playing local does that to our people internally and if we engage our people internally, you know, respectfully I don’t need to worry about our guests because they’ll always get looked after. So if we’re going to be different and therefore rebels with a cause, we had better know what actually we anchor ourselves in and for me that’s local, that’s sustainability, that’s high quality product, that’s being proudly Australian and that’s making sure that our front line teams are the hero of this business and the real hero is the restaurant manager because the restaurant manager in our business is the person that leads the charge across those 175 restaurants which therefore means 175 communities and that means a truckload of people per week.
Jenelle: That’s fantastic and I have been long trying to herald the … the goodness of burgers way before there actually was any ability to have good burger, usually after a big night out I would herald such a thing and I’m very grateful for you doing that genuinely. So you’ve talked quite a bit there about the heroes of the business and really trying to engage hearts. You’ve talked about the importance for you growing up in your career of having access to development opportunities. How do you create the environment at Grill’d for your staff to develop their experiences and learn leadership skills?
Simon: Look, I’d say for us our people are always going to be our greatest asset but have we nailed this – no, but we’ve got a turnover post-covid that is greater than it used to be, even at a restaurant manager level. At a restaurant manager level, we got to a turnover less than 25% which means that our guys were in the position for four years and given that most of them have actually grown within the business, that meant they were often were with us for 6/7 or even 10+ years. So our business turnover is greater than I’d like it to be and that’s the challenge and the opportunity. How do we become a brand that gives people a career. How do we give them the development and the learning that they need and want and we’ll always try to get talent from the outside but growing and developing talent from the inside is really the hallmark of a business that has a strong culture and therefore by default, often and generally a strong brand. So we do have training programmes internally which are getting more and more robust all the time. We engage them to say “be part of your community and the local matters”. Each restaurant each month gives away $500 across three different groups in their local community. Our people and our teams then go and often work with and side by side with those community groups. We encourage them to do that. We’re now trying to set up an ownership structure which is in existence. It’s called “Our Grill’d Partner Programme” where notionally the RM or the restaurant manager owns 5% of the business. We’ve got 12 of those in 170 restaurants. We’re about to put down another five and then we’ve got a pipeline for another 15 to 20 and we’ve migrated the GP programme, which is Grill’d Partner to a JV – a joint venture programme to an ownership programme and eventually to then franchises or franchise partners and what’s the intent of that. Well, there’s nothing more significant in our business than (a) our purpose and that’s to positively impact the lives of our peoples and communities through engagement, energy and education and that plays into our values and our values are passion, leadership, ownership and trust. They’ve been with us from the start and in 2021, we added sustainability and if our guys believe in our purpose, if they understand our values, then the thing that I want to do is double-down and triple-down on one of those values being ownership and we can positively change their lives if they can take an ownership pathway and grow significantly their earning capacity and also their management and leadership skillset and that’s what we’re trying to do, feel that we’re going to be an employer that is best in class and that because if we want to be the brand that presents itself or the opportunity that presents itself, then our desire and need is to have brand in business inextricably linked. That means people on a journey for a long time and believing in what we do because we are more than just a “burger joint”.
Jenelle: So clearly there’s been an increased focus on sustainability and ethical consumerism across the convenience food industry in recent years but Grill’d was the leader in sustainable food practices well before it was fashionable. I know last year you introduced the “game changer burger”, understood to be the world’s most sustainable beef burger, produces 67% less methane and now you’re investing millions into companies that make sustainable products that you can use across your business. Tell me about that strategy, where that passion comes from and how you came up with that so much earlier than perhaps others have.
Simon: Look, I am fortunate that I’ve got permission to make Grill’d the brand I want it to be and I had this argument with my chiropractor just the other day. He was saying businesses should have no say in societal movements. Their intent should be just to make money for their shareholders and I disagreed with him vehemently. I know I could make a whole lot more money at Grill’d if it was only about dollars but that’s easy. I could squeeze this lemon so tight and make a whole lot more money and drop that to the bottom line and the beneficiary of that is potentially me but it’s just not of any interest. It doesn’t mean that a successful business with a scorecard with increased profits isn’t what I’m driving to but not at any expense and my view is if we’re playing a long game and we’re playing a holistic game then Grill’d is my vehicle for making a difference to society and that means I want to be proud of it and that means that when I talk to my kids, they’re always interested in what’s going on from an environmental perspective and from a sustainability perspective, but it’s not my kids only. It’s actually the people that work at Grill’d. They are the ones that actually made us take action. The front line of our business is the front line of Australia’s future and they’ve got views that they speak openly about and eloquently about and passionately about and my view, again, is if we’re running this business to make them proud, we’ve got to be conscious of what’s happening in their consumer landscape and the political landscape and the socio-economic landscape and look, I am a fan of all things sustainability but we talk about sustainability in a broad sense. Animal welfare, number one. Natural resources, number two. Our people, number three and our communities, number four. So all of those play into how we think about sustainability at Grill’d and we try and make that a focus across all parts of the business and if we can take little steps, I believe often the little steps actually create momentum and I think we’re being good at taking lots of little steps because we believe in that.
Jenelle: So really uplifting to hear you talk about that. As you say, maybe there’s more dollars made other ways but to create more ethical, more sustainable practices is a road that is a little tougher. What have you learnt from choosing to go down that road – upside and downside?
Simon: Yeah look, there’s … there’s both. I see myself and it’s not true but it’s just how you … it’s just self talk – right. I see myself as an outsider. I see myself as a challenger of the status quo and I see myself as an opportunist that says “if someone says no, I’m going to find a way” and I read about asparagopsis which is a native red seaweed out of Australia. I read about it in the paper and it was the CSIRO about to do something, raise money to actually then try and commercialise by feeding asparagopsis to cattle. It reduces their methane expulsion and I just dive into these things because I get curious and if I get curious and I can see that it might intersect with Grill’d, I get passionate. If I get passionate, I try and understand it and dive deeper and deeper. We’ve got an investment in a business called Great Wrap. It’s a gladwrap made from potato peelings …
Jenelle: Oh wow!
Simon: … and it has therefore no plastics associated with it at all but that’s the space that I enjoy playing in, putting our money where our mouth is and trying to help sometimes small businesses grow. I’ve had that benefit from people believing in me. I want to try and believe in others.
Jenelle: Fantastic. So final question for you. Extraordinary amount of knowledge and lessons and experience and pain and joy in all of that, but looking back and knowing what you know now, thinking about your younger self, the person that was waiting to be pushed off that cliff by his mates … what would be the advice that you would give to that person now?
Simon: I think I have an intensity and sometimes a lightness but I’d play more to the lightness. I expect to be proud of Grill’d always but for me, it’s about remaining playful. I sometimes forget that everything we’re doing is about a journey and I’m trying to get to the outcome too quickly. I’ve got to remember that I operate with an intent to jump fast and quickly and businesses as they get bigger can’t move at that same pace and if I try and do that, well then I create upheaval rather than positive change but if I go back a step, you know, one is I’ve had pretty good people in my business always but occasionally when you get it wrong, make changes quicker. Put a structure in place ahead of your growth curve. We did that really well in the early years and I would say probably that’s one of the things that I haven’t been challenged on enough by not having other shareholders in the business. I haven’t put the structure ahead of the growth in some parts of our business. At 170 restaurants, we’re playing catchup from pre-100 and once you get behind, it’s really hard to get in front and the other one is which I probably keep doing time and time again “hey Simon, if you’re doing this again, don’t get sucked into the detail all the time – learn to be the master, not the slave”. Having said that, I enjoy being the slave and I enjoy being in the detail. So that’s a hard one but if I was to say again, you know, starting a business today, talking to my younger self, I don’t think I would have done it if I knew what was ahead but what I do know is that my super powers, if I’ve got any, are passion, drive, resilience and perseverance. So it would be knowing that you are going to need those super powers and you’re going to need to rely on them often and meaningfully.
Jenelle: Very well said and in fact if I was going … I’m just going to go to a wrap-up now and you’ve called out all the words that I would have said exactly about your passion, drive, perseverance, resilience. I’d add vulnerability. I’d add courage to those words and it’s funny, as I’ve listened to you and I know we started out with you talking about your fear of failure but I have to say I don’t even know if I’m buying it. I think your curiosity and your purpose and your passion has trumped any fear of failure every day of the week and thank god it has because you’ve done remarkable work and even when it’s been tough, you’ve been able to forge through that and come out with some really powerful lessons. I’ve really reflected on your comments about, you know, surround yourself with people who care about you, who believe in you and who are prepared to safely push you off that cliff when you need it. I loved the counsel from your friend about, you know, you haven’t got anything to lose but ego and I think, you know, where there has taken a chip along the way, you’ve done that in a way that it’s kept your confidence in yourself but perhaps made it more about others along that way. I’m grateful to the role modelling of your dad and what that has meant for you to stay close to community. I am really impressed with how you’ve managed to stay true to the mantra of “get big and stay small”. I think the intent behind that is really powerful, that you can mobilise a contingent of passionate rebels with a cause and engage hearts and clearly connect purpose to values and, as I said, I think that your fear of failure, the fact that you said if someone says no, I’ll find another way, it means that you’re prepared to face into it. You said you were an outsider, you said you’re an opportunist, you’re a challenger of the status quo and so if you add to that a bit of the lightness that’s going to trump the intensity, my god, you have nothing but amazing feats ahead of you as well. So Simon, thank you so much for your time today. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation.
Simon: Thank you Jenelle, me too.
The Change Happens podcast from EY – a conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
END OF TAPE RECORDING

Simone Clarke
CEO | United Nations Women AU

Jenelle: Hi, welcome to Season 5 of Change Happens. I’m Jenelle McMaster and I have the great privilege of speaking with influential and interesting leaders on their experiences of leading change and the lessons that they’ve learned along the way.
News broadcasters: “The mounting loss of life” – “almost a woman a week” – “in the fight against domestic violence” – “killed by men they knew”
Jenelle: Are we going backwards?
It’s a big topic. When it comes to the achievement of gender equality and the fighting for human rights, the path to success requires big changes to happen. It needs to happen in homes, in workplaces, in communities and societies. It also has to happen at many levels. It needs to happen at policy, system, mindsets, cultures. A whole lot of things have to change. The goals are big, they are hairy, they are audacious. The KPIs and the markers of success for achieving them can be unclear and at times seem immovable. With International Women’s Day coming up this month. We thought the CEO of UN Women Australia, Simone Clark, would be the perfect guest to discuss what success looks like in the arena of gender equality and women’s rights.
When it all feels overwhelming, and it certainly can, Simone looks at the impact that can be made on a granular level. She talks about stories. She talks about the creation of empathy. And the changing of lives, one person at a time, and how that can fuel hope and ignite something much bigger.
Simone: The imagery of the large aircraft leaving Afghanistan and people literally climbing up the landing gear trying to get out, she was pregnant, standing in a drain near the tarmac, breastfeeding her baby and subsequently being able to come to Australia; resettle.
Jenelle: Simone is dedicated to fulfilling her purpose of making an impact that is felt rather than tangibly counted. She’s worked in lots of places, from UNICEF right through to the AFL. And her work has benefited the needs of women and children everywhere and has empowered communities all around the world. Simone’s passion for the causes she believes in and the roles that she takes on makes her journey even more captivating. Here, she shares the lessons she’s learned on being comfortable with discomfort, with creating the space to make big changes and looking for moments of hope even in the darkest of times.
Jenelle: Well, hi, Simone and thank you so much for joining us and kicking off what is now Season 5 of Change Happens.
Simone: Fantastic. Great to be here with you.
Jenelle: I want to start – we can start all over the place – but where I’d like to start is with where you are today. You are the CEO of UN Women Australia and you have been for the past two and half years. What led up to you taking that role?
Simone: It’s been quite a journey as the cliché goes. I have spent a large proportion of my career working in international development, in sustainability, both for the private sector and for the UN as well as for individual organisations and causes. So, it’s been a cumulative build, if you like, to this point. My focus has always been on women and children, to a large extent, and then more broadly in terms of the environment and how we treat the environment and how that has an impact on our livelihoods and humanity more broadly. So, somehow, I’ve always been involved in spaces that try to tackle our big, sort of, hairy, audacious goals as a planet and as humans and really it is the culmination, I think of probably the last 30 years of my work. In particular, working for sustainability and international development and for women and children more broadly. So, it feels like absolutely the right place at the right time after, you know, quite a lengthy career and quite diverse career really. Interesting the things you learn along the way that contribute to where you end up, so to speak.
Jenelle: As you say, a bit of a culmination of so many experiences that you’ve had. What does it feel like now to be personally seated in that position of leadership and to be part of this massive global movement?
Simone: It’s very interesting, I think, in terms of timing, there’s probably been no better nor worse time to be in the gender equality space, and I mean that with all due respect. I think there is collective will globally around the value of women and what they bring and obviously that’s reflected in the sustainable development goals, in particular, number five around gender equality. So, it’s certainly an opportune time to be working in that space, but cumulatively we are also seeing a regression along a number of the statistics. So, it is both a huge responsibility, I think, and a challenge, but also a coalescence of intent which really is the thing that spurs me on every day because I feel like there are a lot of colleagues, a lot of people, including yourself, Jenelle and others who are working in the space who are committed to the contribution of women and how is that is best reflected and how we move the barriers for that sort of full participation of women. So really important time and I think it’s a generational shift; it will continue to be a long game not a short game. So, it’s a wonderful role, a lot of responsibility in terms of trying to bring people along but also it’s very hard to point to a definitive outcome and say, if you invest X you will return Y. We try to do the lot, but I think it’s particularly in the role where we are generating funds for programs in developing countries as well. It’s building that empathy base and that collegiality, for want of a better word, between women and men globally to ensure that women have an equal role to play; an opportunity more than anything really.
Jenelle: You’re right. I mean these are big, hairy, audacious goals that we’ve got here and necessary ones. When I looked at the focus areas of the UN Women Australia website, or actually it was the UN website, there was no shortage of very lofty goals in there, and amongst a number of them were ending violence against women and girls, there was ending poverty through enhancing women’s economic empowerment. There was women’s inclusion in peacemaking processes and negotiations. So lots of really important audacious goals in there. You’re, I mean I think you’re amazing, but you are still human in this. What do you see as success on your watch? How do you measure your contribution? Talk to me about that for yourself.
Simone: Sometimes it’s very easy to be overwhelmed by the enormity of the challenges we face and with all due respect and with most of my colleagues in the UN and others working in the sector and beyond, it can be a bit overwhelming and I suppose so when you talk to impact it’s really about looking at the outcomes and the impact on a much more granular level. I have had the joy of meeting with individual women that have been touched by UN agencies, like UN Women, UNICEF, UNHCR, and the thing that keeps all of us going I think that work in this sector, in particular, and those who support us, is the fact that there is - even if it’s one woman’s life that we can change – if there is one opportunity or possibility we can open up for a single woman or a community or a country or a gender, that is a really positive thing. So the scale is vast, the challenges are vast, but for me the thing that keeps me going I think is that hope that when you meet women who we work with and they tell you their stories about the impact that we have had in whatever organisation or agency I’ve had the fortune to work for, that’s really at the core, what it is we’re trying to do. You know change takes time, but it is also very individual. So how do you make an impact on one person’s life when you are also reporting on global goals and things like the SDGs and the gender gap report. Those stories are the things that keep us going and there’s a litany of those and most of them are positive, although often in really appalling situations. So, it keeps us all going really.
Jenelle: Yeah, and it’s an interesting point about the power of story in there and moving things. When you and I spoke; we were chatting last week, and I was talking to you about, you know, change and you said, change is less often about that, you know, seminal moment on the big thing that happens, and you said it’s often super slow and happens over a thousand iterations. Tell me a bit more about that and one of those stories that has stood out to you is potentially one of the moments that made that difference to you.
Simone: So I think on a really personal level, throughout my career, I’ve had the opportunity to talk to women one on one about you know the challenges that they face and more recently towards the middle of last year we held a round table in Brisbane and it was focused on Afghanistan and the women of Afghanistan and I had the good fortune to have a conversation with an amazing woman. I’m sure you’ll remember the imagery of the large aircraft leaving Afghanistan and people literally climbing up the landing gear, trying to get out of Afghanistan in what was a pretty appalling situation, and the woman that I met; she was literally pregnant standing in a drain near the tarmac, near the runway, on that very day, breastfeeding her baby, and had subsequently been able to come to Australia, resettle and had been supported by agencies along the way. And when I stopped and had a conversation with her and she said thank you, and I was like, thank you, I haven’t done anything. But she was – she said you know again, and again, thank you, because support of UN Women and organisations like yours means that I am now here, sheltered, in a transition program, I’m employed and I’d like to do more work and my family are safe. Yeah, when you’re standing there literally putting yourself in her shoes and understanding, albeit from a distance, what she must have gone through, the faith and the hope around that is that we’ll continue to be able to do that. So it goes back to the starting point where we talk about you know one woman’s life, one child’s life, one family’s life, that’s where it starts with.
To know that you can have an impact that’s – I mean to me that’s the reason why we do what we do and why colleagues far braver than I work in these hotspots all over the world. Our rep in Afghanistan is an Australian woman. She’s absolutely amazing and every day she literally risks her life to work with women in Afghanistan and I don’t think you can put a price on that or a value on that, and as you can appreciate, working as a woman in Afghanistan, particularly after recently when international workers in particular, women, were told that they weren’t allowed to work in the country, that became really problematic for a lot of women who were working in international development. So it’s situations like those that really give you grounding in being part of something bigger but also engaging Australian women and men here to understand what that looks like for other women and the shoes that they walk in.
Jenelle: That’s really powerful and I guess even just listening to you describe that woman on the tarmac and talking about her gratitude for being able to work and feeling safe. I mean these feel like basic human rights that should be afforded to anybody. So the fact that that is something that’s being called out is remarkable; is really sad to hear actually, it’s bittersweet.
Simone: It is.
Jenelle: It’s so distressing that we find ourselves in a situation that that should be an exception for her.
Simone: And you know another story was around the FIFA Women’s World Cup last year. I had the good fortune to meet a young team of female footballers who were under the stewardship of a local football club in Melbourne, and they were just excited that they could play football. I mean for them it was just about to be able to get out on the pitch and kick a ball around. But knowing that they were here alone and that their families were back home, potentially unsafe, but they were able to be here under the stewardship of a program. Incredible to think that something as simple as playing football or soccer as we call it, is denied to so many and yet here was a, you know, a great example of Australians doing amazing things for young women and girls who are living under threat of violence every day. It’s those sorts of stories; it’s knowing that somehow we are making a difference, and I mean that collective “we”. It’s not just our organisation. We work in partnership with literally hundreds of different organisations. That’s the critical mass we need for change.
Jenelle: You mentioned something a little earlier around one of your measures of success, around building an empathy base. What did you mean by that? How do you build an empathy base?
Simone: Yes, that’s a very good question. One of the key challenges we have in Australia is to share the stories and the understanding of what life for women looks like in countries other than Australia, because granted we absolutely have our own challenges; we have an aging population of women who are homeless in this country, which is appalling; we have high gender based violence statistics as other countries do across the globe. But to do the work that we do, and don’t get me wrong, Australians are incredibly generous per head of population and as well as our government and our overseas aid program. But one of the things we often struggle with is trying to get people here to understand, just the day to day challenges, and I think sometimes it’s really hard to even begin to comprehend what it would look like for a woman in Papua New Guinea going to the markets and knowing that she was under threat of violence every step of the way. What the life for a young girl going to school in Iran looks like and taking off her head covering so that she can have her own autonomy. When we look at Roe v. Wade in the States and sexual reproductive rights. There are things that do affect us, but then there are things that we have to try and create an understanding and empathy for the fact that things we take for granted are so often not even available in other countries.
So when I talk about that empathy base, very often we have conversations about, well you know charity begins at home and we need to look after our own women and children; absolutely. But when you look at the comparative scale of gender issues facing women in other countries, compared to ours, whose lives are actually at risk even for talking about gender based issues, some countries they’re accused of being witches, there is violence against women who choose to speak up. So it’s really trying to get Australian women and men to understand the challenges of women elsewhere and what they can do about it. Because, it’s also very easy to feel powerless and I think that’s one of the things that we as human beings, absolutely identify with. It comes back to those stories. How do you build an empathy base, how do you get people to care? I think fundamentally people care but sometimes I think the extent of the challenges. I mean if you look around the world at the moment, there is war crisis conflict in a range of countries and it doesn’t seem to be going away anytime soon. And I think it’s easy also to go, well that’s not our problem, it’s someone else’s issue to deal with. Unfortunately, it does have a ripple effect.
Jenelle: What have you seen personally, Simone? You’ve lived a very global life which must have helped to see how women are treated in different parts of the world. You were born in Fiji, you grew up in Sydney, you’ve had a chance to work across South East Asia and North America, what was some of the things you saw that then has impacted your world view?
Simone: It may sound incredibly basic but I’m always struck by the fact that it doesn’t matter who I meet and in what situation, we all want fundamentally the same things. We want to be able to feed ourselves and our children. We want our kids to be safe. We want to be able to live safe. I’ve been in parts of remote China and met a woman who was dying of pancreatic cancer and she had young children and she was concerned that her children were not going to be able to fend for themselves. That she would die. Who was going to look after them? And it always just strikes me that somehow, sometimes, we think, oh that’s, you know, that’s other people’s problems, that’s other women’s problems. We all face the same challenges. We all want the same things for our families. We want the same things for our kids and we all want peace and security, and yet everywhere I travel - I was in Timor Leste, after you know, in the late 90s. Same situation there. I’ve worked in quite a few different emergency situations. The response that’s needed. It’s the same, you know, it’s water, it’s sanitation. For women it’s sanitary products. We do a thing called the Dignity Kit because if you think about – if all of a sudden your home was being bombed, what would you need. You know, it’s like the bushfires, when there’s emergencies. What do people do? What do you grab? What are the key things that are so important? So you know we’re looking at technology and how even personal records can be protected in and through things like blockchain. So it’s fascinating that the number of things that can be done but it always, to me it comes down to that commonality of how do we want to live our lives, and that’s pretty fundamental as a basic human right; water, sanitation, somewhere to live and a livelihood and food; these are the pretty basic needs. I don’t think people are asking for too much and sometimes I think we forget that. My experience is just again the commonality of humanity more than anything.
Jenelle: Such a great point about that. I’ve often said there’s more that unites us than what divides us.
Simone: Absolutely.
Jenelle: And sometimes it doesn’t feel that way, but I think that’s what you’re speaking to there. You’ve certainly worked with an impressive collection of organisations. You had that role with UNICEF, Mission Australia, Safe the Children Alliance, even AFLW. There seems to be a real commonality around social conscience and purpose. Am I reading that correctly, and if so, where does that come from?
Simone: I don’t know. I think I’m probably the – well I’m not probably I am the youngest of five children. You had to fight to get a word in. So I think that’s probably the – living in a challenging environment is not something that’s new to me. But I think it’s just always been something that’s driven me, that being purposeful has been at the core.
I mean, I remember when I came back from working with UNICEF and I joined the AFL and I got a lot of questions; what are you doing working for a football club? And I was like, well, okay firstly, what woman in Australia gets to be part of a start up of a football club - (a) - and (b) the genesis for the football club in Western Sydney, the Greater Western Sydney Giants, was really about creating the community club that embraced all the community. It’s a very culturally and linguistically diverse community and it was really about how football could be a way of bringing people together. So at the core of what others saw simply as setting up a football club, the really strong driver for me was, but here’s a really interesting vehicle around how sport can bring people together, how it can cut down barriers and it can mean, you know, different cultures, different approaches. We had a large population in Western Sydney of women who wanted to play AFL and there was a really strong local club of women who were involved. You know, wearing the head scarves while they played. They were amazing. I mean these were just amazing women who loved playing AFL and they brought this, you know, culturally and linguistically diverse dimension to Australian Football League. It’s that galvanising purposeful driver that is the thing that gets me out of bed I suppose very morning. It’s also the thing that depresses me sometimes because we feel so far away.
How do you make an impact? An impact can be felt in lots of different ways. Like I often speak to people who work in the private sector and say, oh wow you know what you’re doing, you know it’s so altruistic and it’s great and yes it is, but don’t underestimate the impact and the change that you can have wherever you are. You don’t have to work in the not for profit sector. You can have far more impact working in the private sector, for example, in government. I think it’s really just about what is an impact you want to make and how do you make it?
Jenelle: How did you learn where best you can have impact? What gave you the strength of conviction where others might have looked at something that had a really lofty set of ambitions, and go, yeah yeah I think I am the one to be able to effect change here, I can make impact? What has given you that self assurance and level of conviction?
Simone: It certainly started I think way back with my first role with UNICEF because at that stage it was about children and women and children firstly and then women and I always believe that you know children were absolutely innocent, they have done nothing but been born into a world where for better or for worse they will struggle, whether it’s through nutrition or access to water or whatever. So I think we need to be their champion.
Jenelle: We’ll use that as a segue to my next question, speaking of children. You can’t be a woman working on gender issues and not be expected to ask about the impact of motherhood on your outlook. So even though it might be slightly cliched, I do want to understand your perspective on that. You’re a mother of three, two daughters and one son. Are there differences in the way that they see the world because of what you do?
Simone: Absolutely. I think it would be an absolute understatement if I said it – it didn’t have an impact on them. They are all in their 20s and they are adults in their own right. It’s obviously had an impact on them. How they choose to respond and live their lives I think is probably governed by being exposed to that and seeing mum go off to work each day and thinking well what are you doing mum, and why are you doing that? So I think it’s built in just through osmosis that that’s been built into their DNA.
Jenelle: And maybe also the other way around. Their impact on you and your view, your world view.
Simone: Yeah. Well, and again, you know, I look at my children when they were young kids. I mean we would go away on holidays and invariably it’s just a very weird thing. But usually at Christmas time and around that time of year you’ve got disaster season, you’ve got emergencies that happen and I used to sort of pinch myself and think here am I with my three young children and we’re incredibly safe and you know there’s much to get caught up in.
Can I pay the mortgage or whatever those day to day concerns are. When you compare your life and your livelihood here in Australia with what is being experienced – I mean it was back when the invasion of Kosovo happened and that was back in the late 90s. I was away with my kids who were very young then. How would I feel if all of a sudden I had to pick up my belongings and walk across the Victorian border, for example. Because this is what some of these women and families were doing and the kids were with them and I just – everything we talk about, every type of impact is predominantly generational so I need them to be better humans. There’s a bit of hope there when I look at my daughters’ generation because even when they tell me about things about you know what’s happened at work, and you know, how things are going, they have much more confidence in negotiating salaries or being able to have a conversation about their worth and their value.
Jenelle: Absolutely.
Simone: Way more than I did as a young woman starting out in my career, right. So I take absolute hope and the faith in that. It’s interesting with my son because I often, you know, look to him and you know he’s an amazing young man as well and works really hard. But the interesting distinction is I don’t think my son ever questions his seat at the table. I don’t think my daughters do either as much as I possibly did but it’s just an interesting observation that, you know, and we joke and he always gives me a hard time about the gender pay gap and just because he knows it will give his mother a rise, but
Jenelle: My kids do the same to me.
Simone: Yeah, exactly. Just prod the beast. Don’t do it Sam I’m not in a good mood. You know I just think it’s the difference between women now, hopefully and in the future. You know that notion that women question or challenge themselves around whether or not they should be at the table. Well I think that’s changing, and you know that you can’t do what you can’t see. The more women in senior roles like yours, the more women who are speaking out. And young women can see that when they are in the office, wherever they are working. That’s a really important message because how do I aspire to be something that I can’t see? Quite frankly when I finished school a lot of girls were told, well you can be a secretary, you can be a dental nurse, you can be a teacher if you’re really lucky. You know the conversations around graduate programs and working in large corporations certainly wasn’t happening in my cohort of friends. And that’s not because they weren’t all educated.
Jenelle: It would be nice to see the load not just fall on the women to push to have more of a seat at the table but maybe the men also helping in redesigning the table itself.
Simone: Absolutely, and I think we’ve seen that now. I mean I speak to a lot of men about this and you know gender equality isn’t a women’s issue, it’s a community issue, it’s a human rights issue, and there’s a lot of men that see the value. Again it comes back to making space at the table, absolutely, and you know being able to also juggle parenthood as well as time out from careers with having families, because that is a reality. Or trying to do it all, and you know I think a lot of us try and do it all and we do as well as we can. But there’s always trade offs and so I think it’s probably a combination of opportunity, possibility and I heard somewhere recently, someone said possibility is a privilege, and I thought what a great way to capture it, because possibility is a privilege. Because when you don’t have any possibilities where do you go? Where’s the aspiration, where’s the ambition?
Jenelle: Staying on the theme of gender equality here and we do have coming up March the 8th, it’s International Women’s Day, and I know that that’s one day and we’re talking about this every day, but it’s a real opportunity to shine more of a light on the issues that we’re talking about. Tell me what does International Women’s Day mean to you on a personal level? What does it look like on the day?
Simone: Well again it’s been a bit of a progress. I remember talking about International Women’s Day years ago and you know you get the same old, oh why do we need an International Women’s Day, you know that’s every day of the year, and you know I sort of say now, well you know it’s one day of focus but we need 365 days of action. But what it does do is increasingly we’re seeing more and more businesses, corporations, even schools and other things, really focus on women, focus on the need for more women engaged in you know leadership. We’re seeing more conversations around investment in women. So for me International Women’s Day is a really important day to say let’s not forget what we do in those other 364 days a year, but also to really focus on what are those barriers, whether it’s political leadership, whether it’s representation, whether it's leadership in companies, whether it’s living a peaceful and secure life without threat of violence, and gender based violence against women. So I think it's a really important day to remind everybody of also the value of women because you know when we look at first responders through COVID, when we look at front line medical workers, when we look at teachers and we look at those lower paid occupations by and large, the majority of those people are women. They take on amazing amount of responsibility doing those roles. How do you assess value and it’s not always in a pay packet? Recognising the value of women I think is really what it’s about. And even if it sparks a conversation that goes on, on that day, but continues with friends, with families around the dinner table cause the more conversations we have, it’s more about visibility and understanding. That’s a good thing.
Jenelle: Now this year’s theme for International Women’s Day is count her in. So it’s about accelerating through economic empowerment. Talk to me about that. You mentioned – you know when we were talking last week about if ever there was going to be a silver bullet in something that’s so complex and so layered that we should be looking to financial literacy and economic empowerment. Tell me a bit more about your observations of that.
Simone: As an organisation financial empowerment is a strategic priority for the organisation and we know that if women are at risk or don’t have control over their own livelihoods or their finances, it’s very hard to fundamentally reach equality. It’s also very difficult to avoid and/or remove oneself from an abusive relationship. We know financial coercive control is a big problem as well. So if we look at investing in women and women understanding that and being more across and in control of their own financial literacy and their own livelihoods, then it means that they are less at risk of those other things that undermine them. Whether it’s gender based violence, whether it’s leadership, whether it’s in emergencies and in times of crisis what they do. So it is a silver bullet insomuch as if we can address financial and economic empowerment, then we know that that is going to be the silver bullet for addressing some of those other cross cutting issues that impact women.
It’s also really important because you are investing in a cohort of people who have a huge contribution to make and continue to do so, but often considered as a less value. Venture capital for female led enterprises. We know that female led enterprises are more productive. They are usually more profitable, and yet less than 4% of venture capital, even in this country, goes to female led organisations or endeavours. So what would that look like and we know that there’s been a raft of studies that have been done around, you know, if you invest in women the returns are tenfold. India at the moment are looking at this very complex problem around not having enough women in the workforce and/or not enough investment in their own enterprises. And so again if you go back to the stats and the data that sit behind it, we know that if we invest in women, and we have more female led enterprises, and we have more women in leadership positions and running businesses, the profitability and the return on investment is higher. So why wouldn’t you? So there is an economic case for support and I think sometimes that gets lost and then sometimes you get a bit frustrated cause then – why do we have to keep creating a business case almost for why women should be equally represented in a boardroom or why they should be equally invested in. But again, if we look historically – the Industrial Revolution – it’s been largely driven by men, for men, and so I think now we’re playing catch up. But we have to play catch up a bit faster because there’s still a lot of work to be done.
Jenelle: There is and you talked about how change and frustration go hand in hand, particularly when there’s no real visible measures of success. You talked just then about your daughter or how the next generation have got a level of confidence that perhaps you and I didn’t have in negotiating things which is fantastic. But I mean alongside that I see week after week after week a woman is killed at the hands of a man that they generally know. You see report after report that talks about, you know, whether it’s 80 years to 150 years to 300 years before we get gender equality. Are we going backwards?
Simone: Yeah, probably we are. Look in certain indicators I think the other thing is too is we’re starting to measure more. So there is a sense sometimes that we’re going backwards and it’s taking us longer. But if we look at the complexities and the indicators that we’re using to measure that progress, they are becoming more complex in and of itself. The point that you made at the start of that was really around violence against women and gender based violence. And I suppose out of all of the priority areas that we work in, that’s probably the most flummoxing to me, because we can stop it. It’s not something – we’re not trying to find a cure for cancer. We can stop violence against women. So what’s holding us back?
Jenelle: That was going to be my question to you.
Simone: Well, I don’t have the answer except to say that you know I think it fundamentally goes to the value of women. So if there was still people wanting to control and to undermine and to exert that control, the power through physicality and violence, how are we ever going to address that imbalance? And I mean the fact is, and I have this conversation with women all the time, gender based violence could stop tomorrow if we just stopped doing it. So why aren’t we? So that’s where it comes back to – you know we talked about either building empathy or understanding all value around women. Why is it okay to – for a partner or someone that you know, abuse and or you know inflict bodily harm on a woman? I don’t get it and I know that I work with a lot of other organisations on the ground. Here every year we do a campaign about ending violence. So what’s at the heart of that? And you know we often talk about it’s really – it’s a cultural change. But it’s also not just an Australian cultural change. We’re seeing it across the globe, so again to me, it always comes back to the – well how do we value women and how do we let others exert their power over us?
So again I’ll go back to the coercive control example where a woman through her bank account, her former partner was sending her one cent into their back account a hundred times a day and saying I’m going to kill you. So you imagine when you get an alert saying that you’ve paid for something. This was coming up almost you know a hundred times a day. So the coercive control – and that was through the banking system – was not enabling that but he was able to do it, and we’ve just seen some recent reforms around that which have been fabulous because the major banks have now said, if we see behaviour like that now, we will shut down those accounts. There’s a role around systems change, around protections that aren’t just about physical violence. They’re around what are the systems that are enabling those kind of behaviours to perpetuate and why are women still at risk. Then there are policy levers. Then there are systems levers. Then there are you know the way that we think and the way that we act and then there’s cultural and there’s ethnicity and there’s a whole lot of other things that impact the way we view women. So we’re not just working on one front, we’re working on a whole range of fronts and that’s where the complexity can sometimes be overwhelming.
Jenelle: How do you make sure that you don’t get overwhelmed, that the overwhelm doesn’t take over?
Simone: That’s a very good question. Look I think we all get overwhelmed at certain stages and it doesn’t matter whether you work in this space or not. I mean I get overwhelmed when, for the last two years, every time you look around there is something else awful happening to women. You know we look across the globe, whether it’s Africa, whether it’s the Middle East, whether it’s Central Europe, and to be perfectly honest it’s hard not to get overwhelmed. A number of times that I know colleagues do the same thing. It’s just, this is just too hard. Like how do we get traction? I think the only thing that gives you hope is that some things are changing, and so we do get overwhelmed and I think you know when there’s criticism about – oh you’re not doing enough – you know as part of the UN system you’re not doing enough, you’re not doing it fast enough. Look I appreciate that. I completely agree with that. But also conversely it’s what would you have us do differently? And so that’s where innovation, technology, new ways of thinking. You know the old construct of philanthropy of here’s a dollar go away and feed yourself, or let me teach you how to fish. You know that old adage, it’s that, it’s how do we use new technologies, new ways of doing things that are going to help us overcome some of the – I mean the climate crisis is also having – you know - and that’s an intersectional challenge that is impacting women more greatly than men. So where do you work? Do you focus on climate change? Do you focus on gender equality? These are all joined up and so that’s why it’s hard to sometimes to decouple them. So organisations like ours choose to work on the priority areas where we see are the greatest risk to women and try to do something about them. But yeah it’s – sometimes it’s a lot easier to be overwhelmed than to maintain the rage, so to speak.
Jenelle: And in those times is there a particular story, image, policy change, system change that you take your mind to, to help you kind of keep going with it? Remember when we did this, or you know, what do you do to pull yourself out of a situation when you were in the overwhelmed stage?
Simone: I think sometimes other people do it for you which is fabulous as well. So not so long ago I received an email from someone who was more or less defending an aspect of work that we were doing years ago and sort of went out unasked and unprompted – sort of took a position to defend the work that was being done and outlined the list of reasons and sent it back to me because it had come across her desk in a different world and it wasn’t about UN Women, it was about a program that was being run, and there were criticisms of it. I think it was context within the UN system and when she came back, and as I said, unprompted and unbeknownst to me, she went back and said well actually I think that’s incorrect. So let me tell you this is actually what did happen and this is what’s happening and this is what’s being done, and to have that happen, to have somebody else step in to defend or lend a hand or that solidarity. And I think that’s one of the things about the women’s movement that is the most all encompassing is you know women looking out for each other and that notion of solidarity. That’s what pulls me out of my hole sometimes. Because it’s very easy to go, wow this is all too hard, it’s all a bit personal, it’s all about me. Well it’s also about half the population. So it’s those moments and those acts of humanity at its best, that’s when it drags you back out and says, okay we’ve got this, there is hope on the horizon. I think you know we’ve had this chat before about hope being the eternal motivator, cause if you didn’t have hope you wouldn’t stay doing any of this, and if we lose hope then we lose any sense of ability to change what it is we have in front of us. So I think that’s the other thing that keeps all of us as humans going, as you know hope for a better world, and what’s the legacy we want to leave our kids. I don’t want my kids to grow up in a world where you know women are abused and racism is just part of the DNA. Absolutely not required. Shouldn’t be here, so how do we change it?
Jenelle: And what is the legacy that you hope to leave in the time that you are in this role? When you move on what would you want to be able to point back to?
Simone: It would be ridiculously, and incredibly overstated, to think that you know I would be able to go, great my work is done, and we move over. I think, and there was a great quote; I think it was from a former head of UNICEF which was all about, you know, we don’t inherit the world from our parents we actually are custodians of it for our children and for the future. So I think what I would like to leave is perhaps, whether it’s a positive view or perspective about how we can change things, whether it’s pointing to a group of women or a program or an initiative and over the course of my career you know there’s been some where I’ve thought, no I’ve had a hand in that, I’ve had a part of that. The legacy I want to see left is that our children, our daughters and our sons, we have an absolute joy living in this country, being incredibly grateful for what we have, having empathy for those who don’t have the same opportunities that we have and that the privileges that we have and that we leave, that basically it sounds very corny, but that we leave Australia a better place than we found it. And not just Australia, the globe perhaps.
Jenelle: I think that’s a really powerful legacy. Really powerful legacy Simone and I do think it’s easy to get disheartened by what seems so massive a task. But what you’ve achieved and your ability to keep going despite those challenges is phenomenal. From the conversation today, you know, it’s really reminded me about the importance of building a strong empathy base, sharing the stories, helping people understand what it looks like to walk in the shoes of other people that might not be in our natural orbit. A reminder about the commonality of humanity that regardless of who we are or where we are – actually we all fundamentally want the same thing – peace, security, sanitation, dignity. These are human rights, and so why would one person be more entitled to that than another. The reminder that you gave us to not underestimate the impact that all of us can have, no matter what sphere that we’re working in. To challenge ourselves on where we think we can have impact.
A reminder we’ve got International Women’s Day coming up and it is a great opportunity to listen to the stories of others, to reflect, to think about the value of women, to learn, to engage, to spark a conversation that hopefully sparks further action. When you talk about change you’ve talked about the power of story telling. The power of invoking images, whether that’s an Afghan woman standing on a tarmac holding her baby to ignite something, couple that with systems change and policy levers, it happens at multiple levels, and I think when the overwhelm gets high, remember that we cannot lose hope. We need to remind ourselves who we’re doing it for. We can get caught up in ourselves and whether or not it’s us making enough of a difference. But to remember who we’re doing it for and lean into the solidarity of that very group to remind us what we’ve done. So lots of takeaways, Simone, I really, really appreciate your time.
Simone: Great – thanks so much for the opportunity. Thanks Jenelle.
Male voiceover The Change Happens podcast from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
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Season 4
Season 3
Season 2
Season 1
Power Bites

Darren Burgess
High Performance Director, Adelaide Football Club

Jennelle McMaster: Hi. Welcome back to season four of Change Happens. I'm Jennelle McMaster and this is a podcast exploring leadership through key moments of change. And in speaking with leaders over the course of this podcast, it's clear that they almost always have somewhere in there a story arc that required a call to adventure or a call to action, a crossing of some sort of threshold or the encountering of some messy bits, and finally, some sort of insight and enlightenment. So, in this season of Change Happens, I am focusing more closely on my guests’ critical moments and I'm seeking to understand how they cross the threshold and discovered what it was that they learned along the way. So with that, I could not be more delighted to be kicking this season off with Darren Burgess. Actually, it's Dr. Darren Burgess, a name that will be immediately recognizable to most people with an interest in sports or high performance. His is a name that is well and truly synonymous with elite high performance. Working with the likes of Luis Suarez and Alexis Sanchez. With more than 20 years’ experience as a performance coach in one of the country's, if not the world's, leading sports innovators.
Jennelle McMaster: Darren has worked in both Australia and the UK in top-flight sporting organizations, including director of high performance at Arsenal Football Club, head of Sports Science of Football Federation Australia, which included the period that the socceroos made it to the 2010 FIFA World Cup, and head of Fitness and Conditioning at Liverpool Football Club. In his two years as high-performance manager with Melbourne FC, Darren helped his team, the Melbourne Demons, win the AFL Grand Final in September 2021, ending the league's longest winning drought of over five decades. He currently heads up the performance team for the Adelaide Crows. With decades of performance insight and experience and a PhD to his name, Darren has had multiple papers published in peer-reviewed journals and has spoken at many, many industry conferences. And just when you thought that he couldn't possibly hit any higher or more dizzying heights of success, he also lays claim to the title of my best mate. So, yep, they have it. Full disclosure, Darren and I have been besties for around 30 years. So it's both an honor and a little bit weird. Not going to lie to be interviewing Darren today. BoJo.
Jennelle McMaster: Welcome.
Darren Burgess: Welcome. Nellie, how are you? Thanks.
Jennelle McMaster: Did you organize that tooting, in the background?
Darren Burgess: Most unbelievable timing.
Jennelle McMaster: Now, do you think it would be fair for me to summarize one of the characteristics of our friendship as being one where you always gloss over the big things that happen in your life forever reticent to give me any kind of details, and where I am relentless in trying to get more details out of you?
Darren Burgess: Yeah, it's fair to say that you love to explore the minutiae of any sort of scenario and I'm kind of keen just to gloss over it. That would be a fair comment.
Jennelle McMaster: Okay? So gloss over it we shan’t. Consider this a public intervention where I'm going to now try to on the record here, try to my best to get you to open up around your story, which I know that there is some bias here, but I think yours is a life that's been an incredible one. You've lived many lives in your time and I'm really keen to unpack at least one part of that. Now when I asked you ahead of this recording what would be that critical time in your life that we'd want to focus the conversation on? You “uhmed” you didn't even get to an “ah”. You “uhmed” for what felt like a nanosecond and then you said Liverpool FC. What was it about that experience with Liverpool that made you immediately go to that as that seminal moment of change for you?
Darren Burgess: It was a combination of things I've that I'd written 94 letters to English professional football clubs from the First Division to the Fourth Division when I was when I just graduated from uni. And it was letters back then there was no sort of emails or anything like that, so I got three back all saying no. But I appreciated the time it took for them to write back. And I guess it was to get a job in the Premier League, which was the biggest show in town for a football loving person. So in my industry of which was a really sort of new industry, so there wasn't many jobs around. So to sort of forge my way to a Premier League club and not just a Premier League club, to Liverpool, which was and is one of the top ten clubs in the planet, I guess in all sports. So it was probably that moment, not to mention the stuff that I learned on the job while I was there, which has carried me and I'm definitely a changed and better practitioner and person having lived that experience.
Jennelle McMaster: And I'm really keen to unpack some of those lessons that you learned. When you say that you wrote to 94 football clubs, I can imagine this young kid bright ideas about what the future could hold for him. I know that you have referred to yourself as something of an underdog in the past and sort of seen yourself as the boy who couldn't on the field and wanted to get out there and do something big, but you got to have some tenacity and some chutzpah to keep pushing at it the way that you did. So where did that come from? Where did that sort of conviction that you could and that perseverance come from?
Darren Burgess: I was never blessed with the greatest physical sort of attributes. I wanted to play sport for a living if I could. And when I realized, sadly that I couldn't do that because I was a chubby kid and I wasn't always first picked. I had this desire to prove people wrong, and I did okay on the sporting field, but that probably extended to the fact that once I graduated, or you certainly didn't at that stage, look up in the paper and find a job for a sports scientist or a fitness coach or a performance manager. My sister's a teacher. My two other brothers are in finance, so there's jobs everywhere for them. And I didn't get a full-time job till I was probably 28, 29. And so there was a lot of knockbacks, and, no, you can't, and, no, we don't have a position. And so, I was doing part-time jobs everywhere, and I was just really determined to make a career out of it. So never did I think that that career would lead me to anfield, but certainly was just really determined to see how far I could go with it, because I just had a passion for that industry, I guess.
Jennelle McMaster: So with that as a backdrop. So 94 letters you know dreaming up a job that really didn't exist in the way that we might see other professions. How did it feel when you got that call up for Liverpool? What was happening in your life? What was your - tell me about the emotions when you got that call.
Darren Burgess: Yeah, I was working for the socceroos, so I was busily preparing for the 2010 World Cup, and tt was a lot involved in that, traveling back and forth from South Africa to look at hotels and training venues and making sure it was up to standard and playing in friendly matches. So myself and two other Aussies and the doctor involved, Peter Brookner, he'd been, I guess, contracted by Liverpool to have a look at where their injuries were or why they had so many injuries, and he certainly recommended that they bring in somebody in my area. So I was doing the World Cup job. I had a wife at the time who was pregnant, so there was a whole lot to consider around that space. There was a couple of AFL clubs that were interested, but when you get the call from the CEO of Liverpool to say, we want you to interview for this role, anything else just took a backseat. Certainly any other the football clubs or anything like that that was going on just took a backseat, because I remember clearly, Peter, the doctor saying to me, I know you've always wanted to work in the Premier League, but could you work for Liverpool?
Darren Burgess: Because I was a Manchester United fan and said something like, everyone has their price, doc, and I thought he was taking the mickey. So, yeah, it was pretty cool. I remember getting off the phone because the negotiations took a little while because it was a big step, obviously, personally and professionally. And I remember when the contract came and I had the Liverpool emblem on, I thought, this is pretty cool. This is pretty cool.
Jennelle McMaster: There's your typical understated summary of things. Pretty cool. So, despite the fact that this was a lifelong dream for you, you've talked about having a pregnant wife at the time and being a Manchester fan. Was there any part of you that did hesitate about saying yes? Were there things that you were worried about that, notwithstanding an aspiration here, did give you pause?
Darren Burgess: The main thing, Nellie, is, could I do it? That was the main thing. And there was those massive amounts of self-doubts when I took the job about a month later. So in South Africa, just before I was about to fly out, the coach, Rafa Benitez, got sacked or resigned, depending on who you listen to, and took 18 staff with him. So the whole department was gutted. There was one assistant coach left and literally we turned up on day one and there was no one there. There was me and an assistant coach to take the superstars through a training session. And this is Liverpool. It's not, with all due respect, a third division club. So going back to your question, I had some doubts about whether I could do it and then I had just enormous doubts once Rafa got sacked. And yeah, there was no one there. So we arrived on a Friday, and after being pitchside for Australia versus Serbia on a Wednesday, and we're interviewing people on the Saturday and Sunday to start on Monday. So it was an incredible whirlwind.
Jennelle McMaster: I was about to ask you the question of what was it like to walk through those doors on your first day? Or better yet, what did it feel like to step on Tanfield Stadium? But listening to you, I'm thinking maybe those things got drowned out. The excitement of those kind of moments got drowned out by the reality of what you were faced with? Or did you still have those feelings existing side by side? The excitement of what it was versus the terror of now, an empty staff listing?
Darren Burgess: I'll probably give you two examples of that, which might sound a bit trivial, but I remember them. The very first session that we had, because the World Cup was still going on, a lot of the superstars weren't there, but there were still a few. A lot of the Liverpool superstars were still performing in the World Cup, so they weren't there on day one of preseason training. But because there was no one else around, I had to take all of the preseason, all of that first session. I'm sorry. And I had to demonstrate a drill that I wanted them to do an exercise. And that involved me sprinting at my top speed to one of their players playing a ball to me, and I'm demonstrating to these Liverpool players and the whole time I'm going, what am I doing? My first touch is awful and these guys are just going to laugh at me. I'm an Aussie from who was a hack soccer player trying to demonstrate a drill. And fortunately, it's the greatest first touch I've ever had in my life and dropped at my feet and I played it back. And then I just looked at him.
Darren Burgess: So that's how you do it, really casually. But inside I was just thinking, what the hell? That was an amazing touch. How good was that? So that was the first moment and then the second moment. It was about two weeks into pre-season and we were still training at Melwood, the training ground, and one of the physios said, Bergo, I'm heading out to Anfield today just to check a few things because we've changed the change room. Do you want to come out and just familiarize yourself? And I just went, Holy crap. I just sort of went, okay, yeah, I'll come out and have a look and it'd be good for me to get used to it. But inside I was thinking, it's Anfield because of what I described earlier. He just went into process mode. Process mode, process mode. I need to hire staff, I need to do this.
Darren Burgess: We had a preseason tour in Switzerland that I had to organize and all these sorts of things. And then when he said, I'm just going out to Anfield to organize a few things. Do you want to come? It just smacked me. Yeah, no problem. But it was a really big moment. I remember walking in, dressing was going, My God, and seeing the sign there which football lovers who might listen to this will know that this is Anfield sign. And I didn't touch it then because I didn't want to let the physio know that I was excited to touch the this is Anfield sign. But, yeah, it was pretty cool.
Jennelle McMaster: That's amazing. So putting aside the kind of almost the giggly excitement of being in this in Anfield and Liverpool and sort of stepping back on that professional level, what was, did you move into the role with a clear intention of what it was that you wanted to drive at Liverpool? What were there certain changes that you were seeking to institute and implement while you were there.
Darren Burgess: The year before they had come, I think maybe 7th, which is sort of unacceptable for Liverpool. And the common belief at the time was that they had suffered too many injuries. And the CEO at the time had said, we need to sort out this injury crisis that he described. And so he bought in the Aussie doctor, who then implemented the changes that he did. And so my remit was keep the star players on the park. And that involved working with the local physios who were really good. So it wasn't an issue there, but it was more just a training philosophy that was attempting to build resilience into the players so that they could cope with the demands of the Premier League understanding. I never worked in the Premier League, so I had to sort of learn on the job and learn pretty quickly. But that was the main thing when you work at places like Liverpool and perhaps Arsenal and Manchester City and United is two things really keep the players injury free. And by that we meant sort of soft tissue injuries, hams, muscle pools and things like that, and also enable the players, make the players resilient enough to play Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday, Wednesday at the fastest, hardest league in the world.
Darren Burgess: So those were the two things.
Jennelle McMaster: Did your definition of resilience change in working to that brief? Was it just fitness or was there a broader definition of resilience? Did you learn things about what resilience, what constituted resilience as you worked with these players?
Darren Burgess: Yeah, I really did. I had no appreciation of the fact that, for starters, in the two and a half years or whatever, I was there, there was three days over 25 degrees the whole time. So these players turn up every single day and they train every single day. And the common perception of soccer players in Australia in amongst the rugby codes is they're a little bit soft and they roll around the ground when they get touched and all that sort of stuff. But I can assure you that the Aussies that make it over there and the international players are tougher in a multitude of ways than getting tackled, rugby style, on a rugby field. Every single day it's raining or snowing and windy, and every single day they train, they play, like I said to you before, three times a week, and they train every single day. So you mentioned Luis Suarez in the intro. In the 18 months I was fortunate enough to work with Luis, had three days off. That's it. In 18 months, where he wasn't traveling or flying to Uruguay or playing. And a lot of people say, well, if I was getting paid that amount of money, I would have three days off.
Darren Burgess: It's just not true. In my experience, dealing with athletes and people in general, you are what you are, and money sort of amplifies, magnifies or shrinks that. And the resilience that people like Luis Suarez and Steven Gerard from my time at Liverpool is extraordinary. Not only are they judged three times a week by millions around the world and 60,000 people live at the ground, but they do have to have the physical resilience to turn up three times a week because every single team that comes to Anfield wants to win and wants to beat Liverpool when you play home or away. So, yeah, their resilience both on and off the field was extraordinary and something that I didn't appreciate till I lived it.
Jennelle McMaster: As you talk about your experience and forgive me, but I can't help but have style visuals happening in my mind. This guy coming in, and at least you're in the right code and you're in there. But how were you, an Aussie lad, able to influence the likes of a Kenny Dalglish, football royalty? What was your way of getting the kind of cut through that you needed or making a difference? Or having a voice out there as the Aussie that's never worked with Premier League to go in and cross over there and play that role well.
Darren Burgess: To give you an example of the challenge, when the English players first came back from the World Cup in 2010, Stephen Gerard, who is probably Liverpool's greatest player, along with Kenny or Sir Kenny Dalglish. And I presented to some of these superstars about how I was going to extend their career and these are the things that we're going to do as a department to help you guys win the league. Bit of a rah rah talk. There was only five or six players in the room. It was about half an hour and Stephen Gerard stood up. It's the first time I met him and he said, Are you finished? And I said yes. And he said, we'll see, and walked off and I just went, wow, challenge accepted.
Jennelle McMaster: Was it embarrassing?
Darren Burgess: I just thought, what did I just do? That was just 30 minutes wasted. Like, just do it through actions, not through words. Like, this guy's seen it all. So from then on, I just made sure I was first in, last out, and not just in terms of time spent at the training ground, because that can be a little bit of a false sense of work ethic. But I just made sure that every time the players were required to do something, that I was there, even though it might not have necessarily been my job. So whether it was a young player, 17/18, or Steven Gerard or Fernando Torres, that it was me who was doing it when players were injured, it was me who was there on days off to take them days after games when we lost. And you have five or six international players who did not want to be there the day after a game training. And it was just me and them training. It was just me who took them off and the coaches weren't there. And I could have delegated that to one of the other fitness staff, but I just made sure that I turned up every single time and that every conversation I had was about getting the best for those players once they knew.
Darren Burgess: And about five months in, I remember doing a light warm-up lap, which is a typical sort of thing that you might do before training. And Stevie said to me, I said, well see, you're one of us, and then just sort of jogged off. And I just thought that's about as best validation as I've probably had in my career. So, yeah, it was more about just turning up and just showing up and just making sure there are legitimate questions in my field, as there probably are in any field, about whether people are there just to sit on. The sideline at Anfield and not necessarily doing the job to the best of your ability, but acting in a way that helps the players, keeping them happy rather than protecting your own job rather than challenging them when it was time to challenge them. I sort of took the other approach of making sure that they knew that I was there for them, but that I would also challenge them.
Jennelle McMaster: And then, I guess, conversely, is there a moment that you remember a game match where you kind of go, oh, my God, that is my work, or it's come through here. That kind of pinch yourself moment of everything that we've been working towards here right now in this moment, I can see it. Is there something that stands out in your mind?
Darren Burgess: I guess there's two Janelle. Not to say that there was that many and I'm spoiled for choice or anything, but there are two contrasting ones. One was Carling Cup final. We were playing Cardiff, who we should have beaten, by the way, but Liverpool hadn't won a trophy in a long time, and the game went to extra time and then penalties. And I was pretty active in that extra time period with motivation and supplementation and things like that. And I felt that our guys handled that situation better than most, and that was due to some of the stuff that we'd done beforehand. Just to prepare for penalties and to prepare for that. We sort of instigated, and it's pretty common now, but this is back in 2012, preparing the players for the high pressure penalty situation by making them walk from halfway all the way down to take the penalty shootout, try and simulate that pressure, simulate penalties in training. And like I said, anybody who's involved in sport now would say, well, yeah, that makes sense, but it just wasn't done at the time. It was something there was no Twitter or anything like that where you can see video of teams training to do that.
Darren Burgess: This was something that we'd not heard done, but we instigated, and our guys handled that situation better than better than most. The other situation was a less fortunate one, but Liverpool had been taken over by new owners when I was there, who are still there, Fenway Sports Group. And they own the Boston Red Sox as well. And so they were really heavily data driven. And I bought in a data mining company from Australia into Liverpool at a reasonable expense and a great sort of personal risk. And they developed an injury prediction algorithm through a stats tool called a neural network, which is really reasonably common in military and finance. And there are many positives and negatives about a neural network, but essentially it acts more or less like a human brain, and that as you feed it more information, it learns about training loads, and it can by no means predict injuries. I have to say that because people within my industry who might be listening to this podcast saying will be saying quite rarely that you can't predict injuries, but what I can do is produce warning signs. Watch out for this, look out for that.
Darren Burgess: There's an increased risk for this player. Anyway, we instigated, and I put a lot of work into it. We're playing West Ham away, and the coaches at the time, who I won't name but decided to play Steven Gerard in a game in which by both common sense and our neural network, had said that he shouldn't play. But we were desperate for a win. So he played. After about 60 minutes, he scored, and one of the assistant coaches sort of looked over and gave me this glance like, See? I told you. This is why we picked him up, losing the game. But afterwards it was discovered that Steve had a fairly serious adductor injury and missed a couple of months of football. And after that, the coach came in and said, how did you know? I want to know all about it. So fair play to the coaching staff. They just said, what were the signs that you saw that made you sort of warn us? So that was really good sort of validation, I guess, for a whole range of us who put a lot of time into that process.
Jennelle McMaster: Okay, so now I have a Moneyball visual happening in my mind.
Darren Burgess: Not sure about the Ted comparison.
Jennelle McMaster: I think you got to own it, but you've always been really data driven as long as I've known you, and certainly way before that became quite mainstream. How have you been able to use tech and data? I guess that's a great example. Have there been other ways that you've been able to really use tech and data to influence and shape behavioral change?
Darren Burgess: Yeah, I guess the first point is, and you know me well enough, I'm reluctant to sort of say this, but it was 2012, so it was a long time ago, and a lot of the practices that are now more commonplace, they certainly weren't back then. So to answer your question, my PhD was on things like prediction and predicting career success in the AFL, given a certain set of information. So I just became really familiar and interested with various statistical modeling techniques early on. No doubt I relied on the numbers too much and left aside the personal input into it, or I guess the brain's input into some of that modeling. So I probably made some errors by looking at the GPS traces too much and didn't take into account some of the tactical nuances of the game or the personal scenarios of each of the players that I worked with. So what I think I've been able to do reasonably well is marry those two up. So I've been able to sort of say, okay, the data is telling us this, but the player is telling me that I'll lean towards the player, whereas previously I would have leaned towards the numbers.
Darren Burgess: So it's definitely a science and art scenario.
Jennelle McMaster: So you said there were a lot of learnings from you for you over that time and experience with the club. What would be some of the key learnings that you reflect on, that you've taken forward with you to your subsequent roles and in life?
Darren Burgess: In my field there's a lot of sort of common beliefs around. You have to train this way in order to get this result. You have to have this nutrition in order to maximize performance. You have to recover this way over there. I was exposed to maybe 20 different nationalities within the 25-person squad and they all had different upbringing and they all had a different training philosophy. So to go over to Brazil, which when I was there, we had a play who did his knee, to go over there and see how they rehabbed an ACL and work with the Brazilian national team people, they just did things completely different to how we'd been taught at university or through English, Australian common performance practices. And there was no difference in their return to play or return to train time frames. To get close to some of the Spanish players and see the fact that they have their pregame meal at midnight the night before, because that's when Spanish people eat. And it just blew my mind. I thought, no, this is wrong.
Jennelle McMaster: That would have blown your mind.
Darren Burgess: Absolutely like you have your pre-game the night before the game meal at 07:00 because the carbohydrates won't have time to digest in time and all those sort of things. To work with players who traveled from Uruguay to England the night before and then play the next day and still dominate when common literature tells you that for every time zone change, you need to go a day beforehand to be completely accustomed to the new time zone, let alone climate, and you just don't have time to do that. So it showed me the impact of the mental on the physical more than anything else, the number of players out of contract who are under pressure to perform, who got injured, versus those who are comfortable in their contract. So it really did teach me the more holistic aspects of performance rather than just the numbers and the data.
Jennelle McMaster: On the, I guess, the topic of resilience, there are some titles, I reckon, that have enormous pressure built into them or job titles. So comedian must have enormous pressure to always have to be funny, or a psychic must feel enormous pressure to always know stuff, what's going to happen. And you've got high performance in your title. And I think about headlines. I've seen one in the Evening Standard UK newspaper which said Arsenal have hired the best in the world. Fitness guru Darren Burgess can help shape gunners into winners. Talk to me about your resilience. Do you feel the pressure to personally, not just driving in others, but your own high performance being the absolute best in the game at all times? Have you ever felt like you've hit the wall? How do you face into the weight of the expectation that goes with what your title holds?
Darren Burgess: And there's been a few of those over the past five or six years. So that's where I feel the most pressure, when I'm unable to give my all, I guess, to the players, both from a performance point of view and also as perhaps a mentor to the staff as well. So that's when I feel like I'm under pressure. Tomorrow night, there'll be decisions around players who to take off the field, who to leave on. And I've been lucky enough to be in every coach's meeting for 25 years. I tried to work it out maybe a year ago, but I've probably been involved in, I think it's over 1100 games, at least a national level.
Darren Burgess: So with that, even through Osmosis, you're going to learn to handle pressure, okay, and be a bit more comfortable than others in that environment. So I really see it as my job, when the heat is on, to just calm everybody down and see if there's a process that we can go through that we've discussed during the week to come out the other side of the pressure. So how do I handle it. I've put myself through a transcendental meditation course about ten years ago and that's really helped. I'm not always as disciplined as I'd like to be, but certainly trying to read a lot around awareness and self-resilience and just everything from parenting to other people in my position or in similar positions. CEOs of big organizations and things like that, how they have handled it and just try and learn from as many different sources as I possibly can. I think that's answered your question, I hope.
Jennelle McMaster: Yeah, I reckon it has. And I do, I know that you do put a lot of work into taking care of yourself and always self-improvement and focus and meditation and priorities at home, so I can attest to that. I know there's been 94 letters that have been written.
Darren Burgess: It's a good question and having traveled a bit for work, the priority at the moment is to get the kids through high school in this sort of situation that they're in. So after that, though, I'd maybe like a crack at the NFL, perhaps, but I'm in no hurry, honestly. To win a flag with a Premiership with the crows and help build a team from scratch. That would be the number one priority for the moment, but, yeah, in no real hurry for anything else in the near future, that's for sure.
Jennelle McMaster: Well, you've had a pretty good job of manifesting the dream jobs for yourself, so look out, NFL. Now, I'm going to wrap up, Darren, but at the risk of making this sound like we're scripting your epitaph, when people say, Darren Burgess, what would you like them to remember about you?
Darren Burgess: I think humility would be top of the agenda. I think the ability to be humble in all circumstances is just massive. I think very giving and generous. I take the role of elder statesmen in the industry, from a professional point of view, really seriously and mentor a lot of people in that role. So generosity and then, I think, loyal. I'd like people to think that I was very loyal to them personally. So, yeah, I think those three, having not given that question any thought until 30 seconds ago, those three would probably be pretty good.
Jennelle McMaster: Very good. And look, I can say that, and I'm sure our listeners would agree that your humility certainly has come through. Certainly, given your illustrious career, the fact that you would describe yourself as the hack Aussie soccer player with a lucky first touch would probably underscore the humility that is very much part of you. And there'll be a lot of takeaways from people listening to this, some people who are much bigger football fans and sports followers than I am. But certainly for me, the idea that you keep the star players on the park is something that I think is highly relatable for us in the business world, thinking about our talent in our organizations and how we keep them on the metaphorical park building resilience into players. And that may well include, as you've pointed out, preparing people for how to handle setback and loss, or understanding the impact of the mental on the physical or the willingness to not avoid discomfort, to lean into that discomfort, are all the ways that we keep our star players on the park. I think that one of the other takeaways I have observations of you is your power of actions over words.
Jennelle McMaster: I love that we'll see comment which basically says you can say the things that you say, but your leadership is through your actions. And I think you've exemplified the power of turning up, the power of showing up, the decision to not sit on the sideline but be on the pitch. I think the takeaway around using data more holistically, the ability and willingness to get confident with data, understand it, but then put it to the side and listen to the human. I think that's where we see the real magic happen, the secret source between the data and the humanity. And I think finally being open to different ways, to different cultures and different approaches. And my takeaway from that is it's A-OK for me to have a snack at midnight. If the Spaniards can do it, so too can I. And I shall have no more criticism from you, Darren Burgess, about my consumption habits. So I wanted to thank you for your time today. As always, I love talking to you and thanks for the generosity of your insights today.
Darren Burgess: My absolute pleasure, Nellie. Look forward to catching up in person soon.

Dr. Kirstin Ferguson
Founder & CEO | Kirstin Ferguson Pty Ltd

Voice Over: While there is no extended conversation on the topic, this podcast does briefly mention domestic violence. If you find yourself in need of assistance, please call 1800 Respect, or if you're in danger, call Triple Zero. We'd also like to thank Channel Seven for the use of audio from the morning show.
Jenelle McMaster: Hello, and welcome to season four of Change Happens. I'm Jenelle McMaster, and this is a podcast exploring leadership through key moments of change. And in speaking with leaders over the course of these podcasts, it's clear that they almost always have somewhere in there a story arc that required a call to adventure or a call to action, a crossing of some sort of threshold or the encountering of some messy bits, and finally, some sort of insight and enlightenment. So in this season of Change Happens, I'm focusing more closely on my guests’ critical moments of change, and I seek to understand how they cross the threshold and discover what it was that they learned along the way. Now in this episode, I am talking with Kirsten Ferguson, and specifically, we're looking at the critical change moment that she led with the viral hashtag Celebrating Women.
Voice Over: Famous for creating the hashtag Celebrating Women. Her social media campaign empowered females everywhere.
Voice Over: Dr. Kirsten Ferguson is a globally recognized leadership expert, best-selling author, columnist, and company director. With over a decade of experience on a range of public and private company boards.
Voice Over: This leadership powerhouse is set to inspire while addressing equality.
Voice Over: And she was recently awarded an AM, in the Australia Day honors list in 2023 for her significant contribution to business and gender equality.
Voice Over: Let's go back to your 2017 social media campaign, which was hashtag Celebrating Women. What was it that fueled your desire to start it?
Kirstin Ferguson: Well, like many women, I was fed up. And I've always believed that every single woman is a role model for someone else. And so I made a commitment to see if I could celebrate two women every single day from all walks of life and all over the world, and by the end of the year, celebrated 757 women from 37 countries.
Voice Over: So what happened in 2017 when Kirsten found herself sending out a tweet with a simple but powerful message behind it? A change movement with a story worth sharing.
Kirstin Ferguson: We all thrive if women thrive. So I want everyone to be able to achieve what it is they want to achieve.
Jenelle McMaster: Kirstin Ferguson welcome back to the pod.
Kirstin Ferguson: Janelle, I feel so privileged to be back again. Thank you for inviting me.
Jenelle McMaster: Well, for those who don't know, you were the very first podcast guest I ever had on Change Happens. Let's be clear, I didn't invite you back because we're running out of guests. Not by any stretch to the imagination. It was really when I think about as I said, the focus on this season is all about zeroing in on those key moments of leading or experiencing change, I just couldn't help but think immediately of you. That's why I rang you and the change that you created with Celebrating Women movement.
Kirstin Ferguson: I guess that time in my life in 2017 when celebrating women sort of came about out of nothing was a really significant moment that I could never have predicted was going to happen.
Jenelle McMaster: So I'm dying to get into that with you. And as you say, you can never predict it happened. I would even push it even further and say I have it on the public record. In your opening speech at an event a year before in Brisbane, and I think you were speaking to about 1000 people, it was an International Women's Day event. And you actually said, and I quote, my gender is the least interesting aspect about me. It is the only thing in my life I have no control over, the only thing I had no part in choosing. So that strikes me as quite interesting because fast forward to a year later and you created a global movement around profiling and celebrating women and then writing the number one management book Women Kind. Tell me what happened, what changed? Why did you make the thing that you called least interesting about you an actual thing?
Kirstin Ferguson: Oh, Janelle, I have to congratulate you. You've probably done the deepest research on all the interviews I've done on Celebrating Women to find that quote, because you're quite right, I hope, for most of my careers. I've just turned 50. And celebrating women happened when I was about 45, I think 55 years ago now. So for the first 45 years of my life, I hoped no one noticed I was female at all. And that's because I'd come through really male-dominated environments. I'd joined the military when I was 17, I'd done really well, and I'd sort of learnt that keeping my gender, the least interesting part about me, as I said, worked. Now, obviously, research supports why we do that, because if you keep your head down, you survive. How wrong could I have been? And you were quite right. A year later, I would never have predicted that I would have been loudly and proudly celebrating women on social media or that this thing was just going to grow out of control and go the way that it did. So what happened, I think if anyone listening remembers back to the start of 2017. Women were taking to their streets in their pink pussy hats.
Kirstin Ferguson: America had just elected a man who had boasted of sexual transgressions. We had very few women heads of state around the world, still very few women CEOs, and one woman every week on average was losing their life to family violence in Australia.
Jenelle McMaster: It was also a time, I think, from memory. Harvey Weinstein was being brought to trial that year as well, wasn't he?
Kirstin Ferguson: A bit later. So, interestingly, MeToo all happened in the same year, but later in the year. But there was clearly this groundswell of women generally feeling fed up and I was one of them. And I remember I'm online, I use social media a lot, I really enjoy it, but I remember seeing a thread of tweets aimed at an Australian female journalist and it was just this typical abusive thread of tweets. I can't even remember what they were. And they were aimed at Patricia Carvelis from the ABC. And I was on the board of the ABC at the time and I remember thinking, if someone had said that while I was standing next to her or anyone else, you would do something, you call the police on some occasions, but when you're online, you really feel like a bystander. And I just, I was on holidays it was right at the start of the year, beginning of January, sitting on the beach in a hammock, and I just remember feeling really pissed off and thinking, well, what can I do? I'm sick of watching this, I'm sick of seeing everything that's going on. So I took myself off for a walk along the beach and went off to a local brewery.
Kirstin Ferguson: I wish I had a better story, because I knew I was going to tell this story so many times, but I had a shandy at the brewery, so I'm not even particularly interesting. And I remember writing down on the back of a napkin, like in the movies, four questions. And on the way back along the beach, I rang my mum and asked her these four questions and I posted her answers and some photos onto social media. And I didn't tell anyone she was my mum. And I noticed that my newsfeed was just that bit more positive temporarily. And Mum was a retired nurse. Nothing or anyone particular that we would normally hear about. So, not being one to do things by halves, I then committed the very next day to seeing if I could celebrate two women from all walks of life and from anywhere in the world every single day of 2017.
Kirstin Ferguson: The four questions in celebrating women firstly, I only introduced every woman I celebrated by their first name. So I asked them how would they describe what they do without using a position title? And that's not that easy. So anyone listening, men or women, think about how you would tell a five year old what it is you do. The second questions was, what did you want to do when you're at school? And I asked Mum that because I literally just had no idea. So I was curious. The third question was three words to describe your life to date. And the last question was, who do you hope to inspire and why? And there was no qualifying criteria to be involved. All I needed was someone to identify as a woman. And I certainly celebrated trans women as well. And just through word of mouth, through the celebratory nature of what I was doing and through the lack of obstacles, I ended up celebrating women from all over the world. 757 women from 37 countries, and they were as diverse as house painters, business leaders, women at home with their kids, military officers, truck drivers.
Kirstin Ferguson: Some were famous, most weren't. There was a pet whisperer from no surprise, California, and everything in between. And the whole thing was self-nominating. And I had no resources. This was just me and my laptop and a bit of an idea, and it just grew and grew and grew. And I think one of the really important lessons for me was not to overthink things. If I had thought through how this was going to go or how big it was going to get or where it would take me, I would have spent far too long planning and thinking about it. And I'm so glad I didn't.
Jenelle McMaster: Such an important lesson. Before we get into that, I want to go back to I'm imagining you walking on the beach, and you go to a brewery, sit down with anger and you write out furiously on a napkin these four questions. What was it about these four questions that I'm not sure how I can connect this anger with those beautiful questions? Take me through the bridge to that.
Kirstin Ferguson: Yeah. And that is another really good question, because I'm not someone who has ever responded to trolls by being angry and I'm just not a confrontational person anyway, so it never would have crossed my mind to do anything other than something positive. And the four questions then came about from me thinking, well, if I'm going to ring Mum, what am I going to ask her? And those four questions never varied and I would have given them ten minutes thought, if that sitting, drinking a shandy. So it's remarkable that they ended up being answered by everyone from, like, the Foreign Minister at the time, Julie Bishop, right through to a hotel cleaner who I celebrated, and they applied. And I think that universality of asking people about what do they do without using a position description. And little did I know, but that was probably the most inclusive question, because it meant you could say, I look after children or I help children read books to the all those kinds of things that you might want to answer. It didn't matter. And I remember getting a very senior CEO sort of use her title and I send it back and went, no, thanks.
Kirstin Ferguson: You need to tell me what it is you do. Yeah.
Jenelle McMaster: What I really like about this, when you think about the power of mindset change, one of the things I remember that I do it with my kids. In fact, they do it with me too. If you say if you find yourself saying I have to go to work today, or I have to go and study today, and you change the word from I have to, to I get to, I get to go to work today, I get to study, it completely shifts your whole affect. Like biologically you change, you sort of go, oh no, it is a privilege to have a job to go to, I get the access to go to school and study. It's sort of counteracting something with a very different way of looking at it. And I guess if you've been talking about the denigration of women, but now you've shifted to the celebration of women, was that what the intention was, to counteract something negative and shift the mindset and the whole affect to something positive? Or was it not as much as that, it just evolved.
Kirstin Ferguson: I think it was a combination. I have always understood the skills and the benefits of reframing situations, but I think I did that unconsciously at the time. It would be probably false of me years on, having now written about it so extensively to claim that there was some great meaning behind it. I suspect it's more reflective of who I am and that even watching that thread of tweets from the troll, I would never have countered it with angry words. It seemed more natural to want to fill my newsfeed with really positive stories, as opposed to I wanted to try and drown out that denigration as opposed to tackle the denigration head-on. And one of the benefits of doing that was remarkably, I received and the women involved received little to no trolling throughout the campaign. And I ended up collaborating with Twitter throughout that year because it became such a significant movement and did an event with Jack Dorsey, who was the founder of Twitter and certainly was still leading it back then. And he too was amazed because most of these kinds of initiatives, especially if they involve women, unfortunately would be the subject of fairly torrid trolling.
Kirstin Ferguson: And I was terribly worried that these women who I was being allowed to share photos and things like that and their stories would be trolled. But it never happened. And I truly think it's because of the positivity of the campaign and because I was celebrating those trolls. Mothers and sisters and neighbors and teachers and everyday women, it never sought to put particular women that we often hear about in the limelight. I really wanted to show that every single woman is a role model. And I like to think that the reason we didn't get trolled was because of that.
Jenelle McMaster: Why did you call your mum first?
Kirstin Ferguson: Well, she's not on social media. And I thought she'll trust me to just answer the questions and send the photos without any real explanation, and that she did. So I just needed a test dummy, really. And it was perfect because those four questions were questions I wanted to ask mum and she answered them with a sentence as I asked her. And she gave me some photos. So she was my very first profile and profile number 757. The last one was my eldest daughter. So it was really lovely how it all came full circle.
Jenelle McMaster: It's beautiful. It is beautiful. As you said, you had no idea. If you had known then what it was going to be, you probably would have gone back and started overthinking things and looking for resources. When did you realize that this tweet or this was shifting from a moment to an actual movement?
Kirstin Ferguson: I can remember. The day was when there was a three-month queue of women wanting to be celebrated and they were chasing me, saying, when is my turn? And I'm like, oh, my God, what have I done? Because it was a full-time job, it became and I obviously had all my existing responsibilities that were keeping me busy anyway. So for a year, my family would laugh, I would get up early. That's the only time I could do it and celebrate my two women post my ladies, I used to call it, and do that. And every single day of the year, whether I was overseas or sick or Christmas or birthdays or whatever, I did it and didn't miss a day. And as the year progressed, and it obviously became well known, I had lots of offers of help, but I turned all of them down. I really felt this was something I had committed to and I wanted to make sure it was me doing justice to the women who had put themselves forward, most of whom 90% of whom I didn't know. And I felt a huge sense of responsibility to tell their stories and to celebrate them in the way that I thought they deserved.
Jenelle McMaster: Did it ever feel overwhelming?
Kirstin Ferguson: Yeah, every day. I think I got to about July and I was thinking, oh, my God, I've got another six months to go. But I've never really been a quitter. I said I would do this and I did. And again as it progressed and people loved it and it became a daily habit towards the end of the year, I had many people saying, can you keep it going? And that was a clear, oh, no, absolutely not. And I really believe in handing the baton on as well. And so one of the most rewarding things of that experience has been the number of spin off. Celebrating women in firefighting was one. Or celebrating women in New Guinea is another I'm aware of. I don't own this concept. I want other people to take it and run with it.
Jenelle McMaster: What did you learn during that period of time?
Kirstin Ferguson: I think I, as a leader, learned a lot about diversity and inclusion. And it's not enough as leaders to just say, I want diversity and hope it's going to follow unwittingly. And I think it's just, again, because of who I am, it was incredibly inclusive, so I had no barriers to entry. I celebrated every single woman equally. And as a result, that visible difference meant that more and more women saw themselves in people they wouldn't have normally seen being celebrated. And I remember there was an autistic lady who openly said she was autistic and I celebrated her and it opened me up to this whole network of other women on the spectrum because they had seen her. And so I would always see this sort of pattern where I might celebrate someone like that, and then two weeks later, I'd have this influx of other women on the spectrum wanting to be part of it, which is magnificent. And the same thing happened in different countries. I'd see a wave of Nigerian heritage women from the UK that was another sort of subset that somehow discovered it. And I think it's a real reminder that inclusion must be the strategy, and from that, diversity will follow it's not the other way around.
Jenelle McMaster: Well, that all sounds really magnificent and positive, but as you say, people can be pretty brutal, especially online, because they become faceless and you can troll without consequence. Was there a dark side in all of this? Did you face any trolling? Did you see any downsides in doing this?
Kirstin Ferguson: I have to be honest and say no. I think I remember one person being critical, and this is how rare it was. And then that person being absolutely flooded by all the fans of celebrating women, that I didn't really have to do anything at all. It really was an example of putting positivity out into the world brought that back. I still meet people today who I celebrated, and they tell me about how it gave them the confidence to go and apply for a job or things like I almost can't get my head around that posting and celebrating someone online could do that. But if you're someone who's never been recognized publicly before, (Jenelle: so many people feel seen.) Yeah. Even in what to us, you and I, who has a profile and we do this sort of thing a lot, it doesn't feel like that would actually make a difference, but I know it has made a difference. And in the book Women Kind, which I wrote with Katherine Fox, we interviewed a number of women who'd participated and they talked about this confidence that it gave them having been seen.
Kirstin Ferguson: Probably there were critics at the time, especially at the beginning, who may have thought it's pretty superficial what does doing a post about with four questions actually mean? And I understand that, but I think it judges the importance of simple measures to celebrate and amplify women. And this was a simple but highly effective way that was consistent.
Jenelle McMaster: That's so fantastic. And I sort of reflect on that simplicity comment. I know that. I remember Catherine Fagg. I think it was in your book, but Catherine Fagg, she was the President of Chief Executive Women at the time, said the concept of celebrating women showed you can make a difference quite quickly, you can keep it simple and step forward, and you don't need to go to a highly complex model, which I think is exactly what you did
Kirstin Ferguson: It definitely wasn't complex. It was just a lot of work.
Jenelle McMaster: Was there anything about from the four questions themselves that you learned? Because you are right, they're simple questions, but perhaps that surfaced some insights in and of themselves.
Kirstin Ferguson: My dad. He was a big supporter of the whole thing. Every day he'd ring me up and every single profile want to talk about the person but he made a word cloud of those words at the end and he had it printed on everything. It was very lovely, but what it meant is I could see the most common words and the most common word to describe your life to date from those women was “challenging”, and then very quickly after was “rewarding”. So it's that real mix of there were a lot of women that had tough lives, but they ultimately found their way through. I think the most telling question was, who do you hope to inspire and why? And that one always revealed a lot more about the woman than you'd think that question would, because if it was a woman who had gone through domestic violence, they would often say, I want to inspire other women living in fear with my story of having escaped that.
Kirstin Ferguson: Or it might be other single mothers, and so there was all these different paths that women's lives took, and it often came out in that question.
Jenelle McMaster: What did you learn about yourself during that time?
Kirstin Ferguson: Well, I never did the profile I kept getting asked, and I never wanted to do it myself. I think I learned I'm very determined, so even when I really had so many other priorities, I never stopped on this one. And I think, as you said at the beginning, and it's only really thinking about it now as you're asking, that it is in my nature to always turn things around and reframe it from being a negative to how we can benefit from it and wanting to benefit as many people as possible. And I never, ever would have guessed that I would end up doing something like this or that it would be so meaningful to me, but it was genuinely the most rewarding year of my life.
Jenelle McMaster: You know you've got this whole kind of combo of Barack Obama and Ted Lasso in here with the positivity and that whole when they go low, we go high vibes coming through.
Kirstin Ferguson: It is a bit I hadn't thought of that.
Jenelle McMaster: So on the other side of that time, actually, that's 2017. We're 2023 now. Have you had any further reflections? If you think about the reflections in that time and what you're experiencing to life after, lots and lots of things have happened. You've done so many things since then, and I want to cover off your latest book in a moment. But what are your reflections from that period of time that you then took on to apply to what you then subsequently did?
Kirstin Ferguson: I think it was this wonderful reminder at the time, which I've now really embraced, this idea that no one gave me permission to do this. No one said, I think it's time for you to go and do this. And here now we'll give you the authority to go and post about women. I just took it. And we look at so many people that lead movements or far bigger and more meaningful and impactful than mine, but things like Black Lives Matter or Greta Thunberg or Me Too, which all sort of came through that year. And it really all starts with just a single person saying enough is enough. And while celebrating women was minuscule compared to those, it's the same principle. And I think it's this reminder that anyone can do this sort of thing. It didn't really depend on who I knew because I wasn't asking people I knew. It didn't really depend on a profile as such because at the beginning of that year, my profile wasn't anything like it went on to be. I think this movement created a profile around that. So it is definitely something that we can all, if we're passionate about it.
Kirstin Ferguson: And the reason you're doing it is pure. Now, I am sounding like Ted Lasso, but if you're doing it to think that it'll lead to book deals and different things, then I doubt it will happen. But if you genuinely have no expectation of anything other than wanting to make a bit of a positive difference, then I think you're in with a shot.
Jenelle McMaster: You went on to do many other things, including writing yet another best-selling book called Head and Heart the Art of Modern Leadership. And I'm deeply proud of getting a chance to read an early version of that, or the version one of the first versions of it and writing a testimonial. But there is an interesting parallel, I thought, in that book, to the celebrating women movement, in that with the hashtag, you chose to celebrate female role models from all walks of life, not just those in the public spotlight, as you've said. And with this latest book, you chose to focus on everybody as a potential leader, not just those in the workplace. That holds an official title on an org chart. So I was going to ask you whether that was a fair line to draw between the two, a continued desire to make more types of role models visible and accessible. It's in there, it's in all of us. Can do you draw that same sort of direct link between?
Kirstin Ferguson: Yeah, I think I can now. It's clearly something I've obviously believed for a long time. And I really wanted to remind not just women this time, but men as well, that we are all leaders. Whether it's just of your family or you might be a single parent. It's just of your kids or in your community or at work, whatever it is you're leading in your role. And there's a lot of nuance to this, obviously. There's also formal leaders that might have lots of followers. But let's put that to one side and just think about all of us. And I did really want to bring that out and remind people that if you are already leading, you may as well leave as positive a legacy as you can. Because I think for some people, they haven't either considered the impact of their words and actions and behaviors and that they are role modeling that to those around them every single day. And modern leaders, obviously in this book, I argue those that we need and can lead with both their head and their heart. And you can do that in any context.
Kirstin Ferguson: So whether you're leading at home or whether you're at work, the best kind of modern leaders actually integrate the leader they are across all those spectrums.
Jenelle McMaster: And so, the book has been doing amazingly well on the charts. I know it's been flying off the shelves. Where to from here for you?
Kirstin Ferguson: Well, I'm going to be writing another one. I'm just working through now with my wonderful publishers, the next book. But I am loving working with organizations around what it means to be a head and heart leader and helping people from the most entry-level graduates in an organization right through to the CEO. It's the same principles and thinking about it. And I would encourage anyone listening to visit headheartleader.com because you can measure your own head and Heart leadership totally free. And it's just interesting to see what your strengths are and areas you might like to focus on and then see whether or not you're more inclined to be a head or a heart leader.
Jenelle McMaster: We go. I actually did fill in that questionnaire myself. You and I had a chat about that, if you recall. (Kirstin: Yes), well worth doing. Now, finally, I'm going to draw to a close, but you mentioned that your dad had done that wonderful word cloud analysis of all 757 women profiles. And I know that you also said you refuse to do answer the four questions yourself, but in that word cloud, he had the top three words came out, as you said, challenging, rewarding and fulfilling. What would be your words if I asked you at least just that question?
Kirstin Ferguson: That's a good one, which I have not prepared an answer for. I don't want to use those three because I think they do apply to all of us. I think mine is always my life has been surprising, loving. I've always felt loved through my life and exciting. Like, I love my life. I love the different things I get to do. I love that I write books while I also sit on boards and I get to go to writers’ festivals, which I've just done the last two weekends, and yet I'm also sitting in audit committee meetings. Like, my life is very bizarre, but I love it and I feel very privileged to live the life that I do.
Jenelle McMaster: That is fantastic. They are three phenomenal words, and you used I get to in there as well, which I love hearing, because it does change the emotional temperature. And I have to say, you've talked about something that was big in your life in 2017. And the way your face lights up, there's such a glow. There's such genuine pride and joy in what you did, but also what you experienced, who you met, what that's created. And you can't make that up. You certainly can't carry up that kind of energy unless you feel it from within. And it's so evident to me.
Kirstin Ferguson: Can I tell you, I was on a flight just a week ago, and a lady came up to me and quoted her profile number and told me how much it had all meant to her. So it really is phenomenal.
Jenelle McMaster: It's so amazing. And so for me, there is so much in this conversation, Kirsten, but I love that you showed what you can do, even with a negative emotion. You were fed up, and you channeled that. Rather than just a little quiet rant, you did something about it. I love that you asked yourself the question, what can I do? And I think it's a good reminder to not overthink things. I'm a great offender in overthinking things. And the more I think about it, the more I think, oh, I better not do it, and I don't have enough resources. And you overegg it on a whole lot of things. You moved into a space without, I guess, anointed permission. But clearly there was a huge need and a desire and a yearning for that. And I think you have shown the power of positivity, the power of reframing. And I love the point around reducing or removing the barriers to entry, because what that makes me realize is that there are so many obstacles. There are the obstacles that we have in our own minds about, I can't do this, I can't do that. There are the obstacles that you can see and then the obstacles that you can't see.
Jenelle McMaster: And so by just removing any hurdle, you've removed the visible and the invisible. And I think that level of accessibility opens up so many new pathways, and that genuine intentionality with no other ulterior motive means that that's always going to trump the negativity. No one ever can pull you down when you know that's the genuine motivation. And I think you've also lived and breathed what a grassroots movement can be, how that operates. I think your three words I understand the three words, I think they are so genuine. And long may the many, many chapters of celebrating women continue to unfold around the world. And thank you, just thank you for your continued work and can't wait to read the next book.
Kirstin Ferguson: Yes, I may come and interview you for that one, Janelle.
Jenelle McMaster: I'm here for it. Got the mic set up.
Kirstin Ferguson: Thank you for having me.
Jenelle McMaster: Thanks, Kirsten.

Dr. Jemma Green
Co-Founder & Executive Chairman | Powerledger

Jenelle McMaster: Hey, Jemma. Welcome.
Jemma Green: Hey, Janelle. Thanks for having me.
Jenelle McMaster: A lot of people do have, you know, their epiphanies or their awakenings when hiking the Camino Trail in Spain. Take me through yours. What was it about the moment on the hike that got you thinking about what would eventually become Powerledger?
Jemma Green: Well, I had left London and was moving back to Perth, where I am from. And then when I was on the hike, I just started to get this idea in my head that I wanted to build an ecovillage. I related to it, like, it was a bit random and audacious and although I worked in banking in London, I worked in sustainability in my last part of my career. So I think that's partly where the kind of idea had come from in working in sustainability. And then eventually I shared it with a friend of mine and she had suggested that I speak to Professor Peter Newman at Curtin University in Perth. And I just wrote him an email and said, oh, hi, I'm a returning Western Australian. This is my background. I would be keen to build an ecovillage in Perth. I knew it was a very audacious thing to just write in an email, but I just wrote it, I think, because I was on a holiday and I felt more void. And then he wrote back almost like immediately, overnight, and he said, oh, that's a great idea. And he copied in the Mayor of Fremantle.
Jemma Green: And within a week of my getting back, I had, like, coffee with the mayor. We had found this site just in Fremantle, in the suburb of White Gum Valley that was already doing, contemplating quite a lot of stuff. And the piece that I added to it was the energy system, like a shared solar and battery system within that ecovillage.
Jenelle McMaster: What did the ecovillage mean to you? Like, are you a citizen? I want to build an ecovillage. Why? What was the idea in your head and why did you think that was something you wanted to do? And importantly, why did you think it was something you could do?
Jemma Green: I think it was a random thought. (Jenelle: Okay). I listened to another podcast that you had done with Kirsten Ferguson and she explained how she just got this idea in her head to interview her mum and it was a bit random and I would put it in that bucket. It was like really out of nowhere idea that kind of just popped into my head. But it wasn't random in the sense of, I'd been working in sustainability and I was very interested in that and I just completed a Master's. It was just random is the best way to describe it.
Jenelle McMaster: There's something nice about when you are free from the constraints of your normal day-to-day activities that something gets unlocked in you, right? Your sort of more creative in thinking separate thoughts, kind of follow the paths that they do. And maybe that's the beauty of taking breaks and allowing that creative thinking to kick in. And then add to that a sight of audacity or audaciousness, I don't know which one works in that sentence, but then you have it there, you have the genesis of your ideas, but then what about thinking that you could do something about it? That's the element of, yeah, I've got this idea, but I reckon I can make this happen. Where does that come from?
Jemma Green: Well, how you just described that I think is perfect. Like something about taking yourself out of the matrix. And also hiking for me is like meditating. Like, when I now have thoughts I need to figure out, I go for a walk and that helps me clear my head. I mean, it's no surprise there. But this was like a bigger thought, I guess, from like, a bigger walk. And then in terms of like taking action on it, I think when the idea started to have a life of its own, in a sense, when I pitched it, that was kind of like some more momentum around it. And then he said, we can get you a PhD scholarship. I said yes to that and then probably halfway through the PhD, I got really stuck.
Jenelle McMaster: You got stuck?
Jemma Green: Yeah.
Jenelle McMaster: Where did you get stuck? What happened?
Jemma Green: Well, I wanted this shared solar and battery system for the ccovillage and I'd settled back into life in Perth and I actually met my husband, like, a week after I got back to Perth. That's another story. Like, I met his parents in Italy in a restaurant and they set us up on a blind date. But anyway, I got married and then I had a baby. Thought I'm having a bit of maternity leave and I was also stuck in my PhD. And the stuckness was about I wanted to create the ability to share energy and trade energy within the Ecovillage, and I could not find any software that did that. So I wanted, like, say you and I lived in the Ecovillage together and I worked FIFO. I got allocated some of the electricity from the solar panels and some of the electricity from the batteries, but then I'm not home to consume it and I wanted to be able to trade that with you and then you pay me some money and that offsets my electricity bill. I was searching for software that could do that and I couldn't find anything that could do that.
Jemma Green: And about seven weeks after having Emily, my first child, I got an email from like, a former JPMorgan colleague of mine introducing me to John Bullitch, my now business partner. And he had developed some applications using blockchain technology in other sectors and he wanted some introductions to my network. And I kind of read the email and went, I'm on maternity leave. And I just shut the email down, I'm just going to ignore that. And then I just thought, oh, no, I should reply. I met him and he was telling me about this technology called Blockchain and he was so enthusiastic about it. This is February 2016. At that time, not many people had even heard about Blockchain and my awareness of it was very limited, really. I'd heard of Bitcoin, I said, what could it do for my PhD research project? This is my problem that I'm stuck on. And we started to look together. We saw so many possibilities and a lot of the problems that exist with centralized record-keeping systems in the context of energy, and also the problems that exist with centralized energy systems, they could be solved by this technology.
Jemma Green: And so we got very excited and we just decided spontaneously to set up a company. And I put that also in the random bucket I didn't expect.
Jenelle McMaster: Jemma, you've been talking around the elements of this in a little bit there for Energy and Blockchain solutions, but in reasonably simple words. So more than a slogan, but less than a PhD dissertation. What is the change that you're trying to drive?
Jemma Green: Yeah, so energy markets have been centralized for a century. So that's like coal-fired power station or gas fired power station, bringing electricity one direction to people's homes and businesses. And then in the past 20 years, we've started to see a two-directional system, a bi-directional system caused by people installing solar panels on their roofs and wind farms and things like that, that are not at the transmission end of the grid, but are sitting in the distribution part of the grid. So it's not just electricity flowing one way, it's two ways. And the way that that was facilitated was through what's called a feed-in tariff, which is basically saying if you export your electricity, you get an amount of money. And it was very successful, but also very expensive. As we know in Australia, a third of the houses have rooftop solar now, but what it didn't do is it didn't make sure that the electricity got put where there's actually demand. And electricity, you have to balance supply and demand in all parts of the grid, otherwise the grid fails and you have brownouts and blackouts. And when you've got a one-directional system, the whole system was geared up to balance supply and demand using the One Direction.
Jemma Green: And when you start using the Two Direction, it starts to not cope with this. So you've got too much energy in one suburb and not enough in another. And how do you solve that? Well, you solve that by upgrading a substation or a transformer or millions of millions and tens of millions of dollars to do that. And so what has started to happen is we've had to change the grid infrastructure, the poles and wires, and it's become really expensive. So the feed-in tariff model became almost a victim of its own success. And now what's being seen around the world as companies and countries set net zero targets or renewable energy targets, they realize that that model is broken and they need a different way to encourage more renewables on the grid without it pushing up the price of electricity. Because in all countries that have a lot of variable renewable energy, so that's solar and wind, they have the highest electricity costs in the world. So the concept of a distributed energy market is that there are price signals for you. And I say you and I live on the same street to trade energy with each other.
Jemma Green: Or say I have solar panels and you have a battery. You can store my solar, excess solar in your battery during the day and then I'll buy it off you at night. And that helps balance supply and demand on the grid. I hope I didn't get too technical.
Jenelle McMaster: No, I feel like what I'm hearing is it's about aligning supply and demand in a two-way distributed energy market in a cost-effective way.
Jemma Green: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. And so how do you do that? How do you actually make that trade happen between you and me or the shopping center and me, it's not just necessarily households, but it's other businesses as well. So you can do that with a centralized system. But what we've seen in centralized record-keeping systems is they can be very costly to maintain and they're fraught with issues. So most people don't know how many problems exist in these kind of centralized systems. But just for example, Dole Food, the Pineapple Company, they had issued 30% more shares than existed. And this got discovered, I think around 2017, 2018, because they weren't managing their shareholder registry correctly. And in the case of energy, there are so many issues with incorrect bills, the record-keeping systems from centralized databases of fraud. And sometimes, like, there's a case in India, sadly, recently, where somebody's bill was like, you know, thousands of dollars when it would otherwise be just, you know, under 100, and they couldn't get anywhere with the utility and they committed suicide. Yeah. And so the system isn't necessarily geared up to deal with addressing these issues particularly well.
Jemma Green: And there are also cases like that in the UK and Australia, actually, all around the world. So I could see there's a problem with centralized energy systems and the centralized record-keeping systems. And there's also this problem that exists in electricity grids as we put more distributed energy in. And what the blockchain provides in that scenario is an ability to track each kilowatt hour with a really rock solid audit trail that's very trustworthy, but allows that trade of energy and also the payment of money between you and I to happen very seamlessly and efficiently. And so I think that if you have a decentralized energy market, if you have a distributed energy market without a decentralized record-keeping system, I think it's going to be fraught and that you won't get as many people participating in it or there'll be lots of issues. And in terms of the blockchain, okay, I think there's probably just to say about blockchains, they're not all created equal. So everyone's heard of the bitcoin, and that is a particular type of blockchain that just, you know, has a bitcoin on it and you transfer it from one person to the next and it can only process seven transactions per second.
Jemma Green: It's very slow and it doesn't have any functionality in it. And then the kind of next era or generation of blockchains has what's called smart contracts. So that's like programmable tokens that can perform a function. So for example, if I said if the weather is 47 degrees, pay Janelle $500, you can put that functionality inside the token. And that's called a smart contract. And that was like a big innovation from the bitcoin, which we'd call a gen one blockchain, to Ethereum, which is like a gen two blockchain. But the problem with Ethereum is it's also slow. It can only process ten to twelve transactions per second. And so it has been great for experimenting with new things and I'll give you a couple of examples in a second, but it suffered from this speed issue. And then the third generation of blockchains, which is where we're kind of seeing right now, is around smart contracts that have this programmable aspect to it, but that also have a lot of throughput. So they can process 50,000 transactions per second. So it's a big shift. And why am I saying that what it provides is transformative. I'll give you some examples.
Jemma Green: So on gen three blockchains, which is Salana as an example, and the difference between the reason they can process 50,000 transactions a second versus ten to twelve is they process all the blocks at the same time in parallel, whereas Ethereum processes one block and then another block. Don't want to get too technical, but just to explain why it's been able to do that is really interesting, for me at least. But what it makes possible is huge. So if you think about how did Uber get invented? Uber got invented because there was GPS and then there were maps, and then lots of people had phones, and then because of all those ingredients existed, uber could be invented. And lots of people talk about blockchain, about it's just another record-keeping system, but that's just the base layer that it needs to exist for the innovation really to be unlocked. And some of the I'll just give you three quick examples. So there's a map solution built on Salana, which actually everyone who's got a dash cam can send information to the map and they get paid in tokens, which they can redeem for money. And so the map is constantly updated, whereas the Google Maps only gets updated, say, every 18 months.
Jemma Green: So this map is super fine-grained, and it's engaged citizens in an ecosystem using a token economy. To do that, and to do that map, keep it updated, you need 50,000 transactions per second. You need a lot of throughput. Yeah, or another one, cloud computing. Not everyone's using all their cloud services, and they want to have a secondary market for trading surplus cloud allocation. So using tokens, they can give access to their cloud and receive payment for that. And so they're basically utilizing surplus cloud that is very expensive. And then third parties can access cloud from lots of different providers at a cheaper rate without having a contract in place. The same goes for and that has a lot of transactions per second. So you could never do that on Ethereum, but you can do that on a gen three blockchain like Salana. And then a third and final example would be for WiFi. So I've got a great connection. I'm not using it all. I can just set up and basically sell my excess WiFi and monetize that and it's securely giving access to a third party. And through the token system, I get paid, and then I could redeem those tokens for cash.
Jemma Green: So that whole thing, it's analogous to that Uber example that I gave. But you can't necessarily envisage a lot of this stuff in advance. You didn't know that Uber was going to invent itself because you had GPS and maps and wide adoption of smartphones. And I think in the case of electricity, you've got basically a secondary market for surplus energy. It's the same analogy. And what we're seeing now is the changing of regulation to enable these new innovations to kind of pop up. So, yeah, I think the blockchain is really known about the record-keeping system, but I think that's the first step. The second step is what can that record-keeping system plus high throughput on a chain actually provide in inventing new commercial models and new business models?
Jenelle McMaster: Amazing and complex stuff. And I can hear the passion coming right through you, Jemma, when you speak about this. What I'm interested in is - not everybody that you speak to gets this.
Jenelle McMaster: I might put myself in that bucket or they'll be having different lenses on it, right? So they might be a technologist who literally gets blockchain, or they might be an energy regulator who gets that space, or they might understand more about business models in this space and whatever, but they don't get that whole picture. Or they might not be anything to do with any of those things, but they need to be convinced of this because they're going to unlock capital or whatever the thing is. So what's it been like over these years? And I can imagine that your own learnings have come thick and fast around. How do you distill the messages and how do you explain and verbalize this idea to people? What did you learn about communicating in a space. As you've just said, a lot of this stuff couldn't even be envisaged at the time, or there wasn't even the technology capabilities at a certain time, or they weren't applied to this. So you had to paint a picture about possibilities at times when people either didn't understand it or it wasn't even quite there yet. Tell me about your learnings on the communication on a journey like this.
Jemma Green: Yeah, well, it's crucial to acknowledge that there's a lot of viewpoints and criticisms regarding Blockchain technology, and then there's lots of people that hold critical opinions on it on Blockchain deeming it like ineffective or overhyped or lacking problem-solving capabilities. So you have to recognize those sentiments. Like, for example, like Nurial RabinI, who's like an economist and professor at New York University. He says Blockchain is a solution in search of a problem. And there's an author of David Gerhard, he wrote this book called Attack of 50-foot Blockchain of the 50-foot Blockchain. And he said Blockchain is the most overhyped technology ever. It's no better than a Glorified database. I could go on. There's lots of them and I actually respect those opinions. And I think if you don't actually accept them and respect them, you don't actually engage with them and realize that there's a communication job to be done there. That is the sentiment, because perhaps they don't understand the problems that exist in centralized databases. So, like, you know, those examples that I gave you are about Dole or the billing systems. Most people wouldn't know that those things exist or that there's resistance to deal with issues when they get brought up, or they think that Blockchain is a record-keeping system, but they don't realize that it can unlock that.
Jemma Green: So it is all about my job, I think, is more about explaining those things and trying to find a way to connect to people in terms of what is relevant and important to them. And yeah, my success at that is varied. I would say sometimes I'm more succinct and sometimes I go. But you can see when you get a better reaction to something. Like, for example, I talk about Blockchain as being a bit like barcodes. In supermarkets sometimes Jenelle doesn't go to the supermarket because of the barcode. She doesn't go, I'm going to Kohl's because it's got barcodes. But the fact that it's got barcodes means that the stock control is better. Or when you go through the till, it's fast or there's less mistakes, but the equally legitimate is the corner store that doesn't use barcodes. So it's not like you can't have a supermarket experience without barcodes. And it's the same with Blockchain. You can do a lot of this stuff without it. But what it provides in having it is a more efficient system that builds trust and that can unlock innovation, I would say. I think you've got to recognize that there are these alternative views, and you've got to take people on a journey that they can relate to.
Jemma Green: And yeah, I have varying success with that.
Jenelle McMaster: If you think about those varied experiences of success, tell me about a time when you really felt, oh, my God, we are totally on the same page, and it was one of those breakthrough moments. Does one come to mind for you? Anything that's made you go, wow, this really hit, this landed, and now we're going to be able to do something as a result of having unlocked that understanding or ignited a desire to participate?
Jemma Green: Yeah, well, just a couple of months ago in India, Uttar Pradesh, which is the largest and most popular state in India, changed its regulations and wrote into the regulation the ability to trade energy peer to peer using blockchain. And I didn't envisage that happening. We weren't working on that, as in, let's try and make the regulations change there.
Jemma Green: That just happened out of it. But I interviewed, actually, the chairman for the regulator for a report. Like, he's writing the foreword for the report, and I asked him, Why did you do this? And I realized that the things that we'd been saying actually landed and gelled with him as well.
Jenelle McMaster: How did that feel for you, Jemma, when you had that realization? What did that feel like?
Jemma Green: I was so relieved because taking on a project like Bowel Ledger, let's change an energy paradigm. There's a lot of stuff you do and you don't know what impact it's going to have at all, and if at all when. And so to get, you know, that feedback was, you know, like, one the regulation changed was, like, amazing. But then to hear from him, actually, the sentiment shared around, oh, this can grow renewables without it becoming too costly. This can engage citizens in getting renewable energy even if they can't afford solar panels, this can make it happen more efficiently than if we used a traditional database. I was like, wow, these things actually make sense to other people. I was so relieved. But also, I was very proud. I was definitely proud that that had happened.
Jenelle McMaster: I love hearing those words because it sounds really purposeful like. You felt that there would be positive community impact as a result of that, the access it gets released, et cetera. Is that what you were ultimately seeking? Was it a purpose around that from the get go? Or has purpose found its way in there as a result of just sort of tripping into this path?
Jemma Green: I would say the democratization of power for a sustainable future is our vision from the get go. But you've got lots of incumbent players that have a system that isn't about democratization, it's about centralization. That's been first and foremost in our minds. And lots of people would say, well, you can't do the uber fication of electricity because it's different. And for me, it was like, well, it's not like you can't, but it takes something more. And maybe we're really naive in anticipating actually what it would take, but it actually can happen. Yeah, it was very encouraging and motivating. And now Delhi, the neighboring state, has draft regulation doing exactly the same. And there's six other states that are also in a conversation around this in India. So you can see now how that idea could take hold in a much bigger sense in India. And other places will be looking in fact, they already are looking at what's happening there. I didn't foresee any of this and I think when we set up the company, we thought we were just making some technology, putting it out there. I think that was very naive. I realized that it's so much more about explaining things because if people don't understand it, then they don't trust it.
Jemma Green: If you want them to do something new, incrementally new, that's a different explaining job. If you wanted them to contemplate something completely different, which is what we're doing. I think I completely underestimated how much work that was and what that involved. But now I can see at least we're making good headway in that it's very motivating.
Jenelle McMaster: It sounds like you've really sort of been on a journey of trying to strike that balance between communicating in a way that people understand and want to change, but not oversimplifying it, so that they wouldn't underestimate the complexity of what has to happen in order to affect that change. Do you feel like that's been a constant, I guess, a seesaw of considerations when you communicate?
Jemma Green: Yeah, it is a very good way to describe it because different places in the world have different concerns and so you can't just rinse and repeat. You've got to understand what's going on in a particular place to know exactly what the message is that's going to resonate there. So in India, they want to hit 500 gigawatts of renewables by 2030 and 50 gigawatts of batteries. That's huge. And they are lagging behind on the targets and it's just out of the question that they're going to not do something to get it. They've got a much bigger appetite to hit the renewables targets and so they saw this as a way to get there. And interestingly, they don't have a lot of renewable target sorry, renewable tariffs. So you can't sign up and get a green tariff until recently in India. But as soon as they started to offer them, people said, how do I know it's really green? And so the need for a blockchain to be able to say it's all recorded on the blockchain, that has become quite important there. And I didn't anticipate that, but that understanding that situation meant that we can be more on the front foot here around the blockchain and what it provides.
Jemma Green: Whereas in other places, say, for in Europe, they don't really care in many cases. And so why would you over talk about that. What they do care about there is these energy communities, and they already had created the regulation to do that in 2018. So it's just around can you make are you a solution provider that can do that efficiently? That's what they care about there. So, yeah, the communication job is very different in different places based on the circumstances.
Jenelle McMaster: So when you're talking about that, Jemma, it seems almost matter of fact. It seems almost like, okay, so this isn't as relevant to you in your country or your region or whatever this is. I'll change my narrative to this, or I'll focus on that. But how does it actually feel for you as the CEO and co-chair of this co-founder of this business? How does it feel for you as somebody who's committed to the cause? When you get a no, or you get a series of no's, or you get a constant no, we can't what's that feel like for you?
Jemma Green: Well, it depends on the day. But there's a great graph which says a day in the life of an entrepreneur. Have you seen it?
Jenelle McMaster: I think I might have.
Jemma Green: It's like a zigzag that goes up and down like this. And it goes it's amazing. It's terrible. It's awesome. It's horrific. And it goes like this. It can be very raw, but I think the better and more correct way of looking at it is, am I making more good decisions than bad ones? Am I getting more yeses than nos? So overall, when you add it all up, what does the ledger say? I'm actually making progress here. And so you've got to take the nos in the see the context. How many nos? How many yeses? Am I moving backwards or forwards, ultimately? And if when I do that, then I can be very accepting of the nose and go, well, I need to do a better job explaining next time, or maybe that's planting a seed that will germinate later. And we see a lot of that like, happening. A lot, actually. So I think that as an entrepreneur, it's actually more of a job of managing your own internal state. Because this idea that entrepreneurs and businesses just scale in like two years is highly unusual. It's normally a decade-long project. It's a marathon, and you've got to sustain yourself throughout that.
Jemma Green: And one part of it is your vision, like what you want to create. And the other part of it is actually just putting nos and failures in the right context, I would say, to maintain momentum and your mood, because if you don't do that, you're not going to keep working on that project.
Jenelle McMaster: Absolutely love that. And it reminds me of actually one of an insight from another Change Happens podcast alumni. I can call people who have joined me, which you will be now, which is Holly Ransom, who she said which she said that the greatest lever of driving change is momentum. And I think that's placed to what you're saying there the ledger of yeses and nos. If you're still moving forward, if the yeses are more than the nos, and then you've got momentum and that is an impetus for change.
Jemma Green: Yeah, I think that is a great way to describe it. I would also add that movement isn't necessarily progress. So you do have to take a cold, hard look at things sometimes and curb your enthusiasm.
Jenelle McMaster: I hear a show in that. So, Jemma, when is the job done for you with this?
Jemma Green: This is probably not the right answer, but I don't know.
Jenelle McMaster: There's no wrong answer here.
Jemma Green: I think for me, the sense of satisfaction is from seeing what we've done with scale attached to it. Like, for me, that's where then I can see the democratization of power has happened and it has contributed towards a sustainable future at large. Yeah, when we started the company, we're a startup, and so we had to prove that technology worked and that we could deliver. And people wanted to see a project in their part of the world, like a Malaysian client didn't want to see a French project. So we had to do a lot of lighthouse projects to demonstrate that we could deliver. And that projects and models that people could relate to. We're in a different era now, which is we've done that and now we've identified where's the biggest opportunities for scale and we're focusing our efforts there. And that would be Europe and India for renewable energy certificate trading, the US. So I'd say it's really focusing on those things and getting scale in those places. That for me would be like what I would say a point for punctuating, accomplishment and satisfaction.
Jenelle McMaster: Fantastic. So, final question for me. Jenna, what do you jenna, Gemma, Bruce, what else do you think needs to change to make this work bigger and better in the future?
Jemma Green: I think awareness of distributed to centralized energy markets, that is a big piece, and in some cases regulation, but it's not necessarily like regulation works in some parts in a particular place, but not in others. So it's not like a ubiquitous regulation in this particular area. But I'd say that the regulations around energy are as companies and countries set targets, they're starting to set a regulation for targets. So those things are focusing people's minds on the target and then understanding how do they get there. So that's the awareness piece. Some people wouldn't like that they have other competitors in their market. But because the project is so big, I actually really value the work that our competitors are doing because they're helping to explain things such a big. Exactly. Yeah.
Jenelle McMaster: That is fantastic. Jemma, I really want to thank you for your time today. And I know lots of people take away lots of different things, but for me, some of the great pearls that you've shared that stand out for me are break the routine. And like I said, I'm on holidays tomorrow. So breaking the routine allows you to unlock yourself from the matrix, as you put it, remind ourselves of the power of a meditative state, if only to foster the random ideas. Couple random ideas with a bit of audaciousness and a side of naivety and you have yourself something quite special there. I also learnt that getting stuck can be an incredibly powerful way to stumble on solutions. If you hadn't got stuck, you wouldn't have stumbled upon the blockchain solution which underpins what you do. I have learned that engaging and respecting and engaging differing opinions can be incredibly well. It is very important, but also instructive to how you might need to change your communications to have impact. And you're working in an area where it's not easy and sometimes possible to envisage things in advance. There may well be solutions that you need that aren't yet developed or invented.
Jenelle McMaster: But to stay the course, what you need is an overall ledger that guides you, that says, am I making more good decisions than bad? Are we moving forward? And puts the nos and the failures in perspective. And finally, I think, the guiding light of purpose yours is the democratization of power for a sustainable future, is an amazing beacon to have in front of you. And I want to thank you for working in this space and please continue to keep doing the amazing things you do. It feels like we are on the verge of a tipping point here and I think you've been instrumental in that. Thanks so much, Jemma.
Jemma Green: Well summed up and thank you so much. That was great.

Craig Tiley
CEO | Tennis Australia

Jennelle McMaster: Hi, Craig. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today.
Craig Tiley: It's great to be here. Thanks, Jenelle.
Jennelle McMaster: Now, Craig, you have lived a lot of lives as an athlete, as a coach, as a director, as a CEO. You've had an incredible range of experiences throughout your career, all over the world. But when you and I spoke a couple of weeks ago, I asked you when the most significant moment of change in leadership was that you can remember in your life. And I have to say it was without hesitation that you said, well, holding the Australian Open during COVID In fact, you held two given we then had omicron. We all felt the impacts of COVID but none more so, I think, than Melbourne, which was widely quoted as the most locked-down city in the world. So I want to go back to that time if I can, which I have to say to me, always feels like a really distorted dreamlike bubble. I lose track of the years, I lose track of the months. But I think we're placing this as probably mid 2020. And I wonder if you could paint for me a picture of what was happening in the world at that time and in Melbourne with respect to COVID and your initial thoughts back then on how it would be impacting or could be impacting the AO given. I expect it gets planned a long way out, right?
Craig Tiley: It certainly does. And let me start out by saying that time was extremely difficult for everyone, and certainly for those that had impacts on family and family members. And like anything, when you face with adversity, within adversity, there's always opportunity and it always is how you approach that adversity. And you have two choices. You either approach it in a positive way with a greater outlook, with opportunity, or you approach it in a more negative, challenging way, where you make it bigger and make it really impact your daily life. So that context always from a leadership point of view, I've always looked on the silver lining, the opportunity, the positive outcome being part of the solution, not part of the problem. So when we were faced with that challenge, it was basically the middle of 2020. In fact, this came off the beginning of 2020. Keep in mind, Australia, particularly the East Coast, was severely impacted by the bushfires and we were on the verge of having to postpone the Australian Open because of the bushfires. And we were very fortunate. The smoke haze lifted and we were able to continue. But it did have an impact on the beginning of the event.
Craig Tiley: We were also advised at the end of the event that there was this virus that had likely got out of Wuhan. We had over a thousand guests from Wuhan that were with us that week, and so what would we be doing about it? So we did start a testing regime early back in January and not having any detection of any type of disease or anything. And through our medical team who were working closely within the infectious control leadership of Australia, we went about our merry way in our normal way in February. Little did we know a few months later we were going to be dealing with the virus that had globally spread and was going to be significant for us. The first time I called the team together, I said to them, look, don't worry, this is going to be about a month and we'll be back in the office. And it just shows you again how little you do really know about these things and you can never really look into the future and think this is what it's going to be. And I think that's a good learning I took from that. It ended up being two years over two years, but we had to plan an event.
Craig Tiley: We worked closely with the Victorian government in deciding the conditions that we would have and no one knew the conditions. They were forever changing every single day, basically. And so we pulled the teams together and said we are going to run the Australian Open. Not only because the cost was going to be less to run it, which sounds surprising, but also because you need to use it as an opportunity to show people what's possible and we can get out of this. We can get through this. So I started to use it as a platform for much bigger than it was, just running a sporting and entertainment event. We started there the beginning of the middle of that year, started planning for what was going to be an event, regardless of the circumstances and the challenges we were going to have. Little did we know we were going to have to bring in over 1200 athletes and their teams, only a 25% capacity on planes that we had to charter from around the world and have them in lockdown for 15 days. And you put athletes that are high performing and they're coming about to play big grand slam in a room in lockdown for that period of time, then expect them to get out and compete at the highest level to be showcased around the world.
Craig Tiley: It was a difficult task.
Jennelle McMaster: Craig the level of conviction as you talk about that now and you sort of say we are going to go ahead with it. First of all, was that a brave face for others or was that a true, I have no doubt we need to do this, or were you having some doubt but just trying to put on something? Where does that conviction tell me about that, because it feels so certain now, talking about it in retrospect, but what was it then?
Craig Tiley: It's a good question because it's easy to talk about now because we threw it and we can draw back on the things that we remember. But I do recall a leadership has to be authentic. And I felt that at any time, I honestly believed, honestly had never had a doubt that we were going to make this happen. I don't think I ever said this wasn't going to happen. Many people told me no ways. Many people told our team no ways. I also know when you have a really good team, which I was fortunate to have and you have people that have alignment in thinking it wasn't a brave face, there was certain element of extreme optimism and convincing people and persuading people. But that comes into your sales skills, which I think it's really important for everyone to have persuasive their sales skills. And it was more than a brave face. It was an absolute belief that we would find a way to get it done. And I was told by the international playing Group, by the International Tours, that there's no way this was going to happen. In fact, the outcome of 2021 and putting all the athletes in lockdown the entire year, the player compensation that was paid to professional tennis players, tennis Australia paid over 30% for the entire year because we were one of the very, very few events that actually went ahead that year.
Jennelle McMaster: It's quite an incredible story, and I love the conviction that's born from having such a high-performing team, I love the upfront conviction. I've spoken to many, many leaders who talk to me about a side dish of naivety when they've taken on big challenges. Was there some naivety there as well? And were there moments where even if you had the conviction, it got wobbly with certain challenges?
Craig Tiley: There were many wobbly moments up until even the night before we were delivering it. And I think the difference in this, compared to any other leadership challenge most people have had, is everyone around the world was in the same position. This was a virus for everyone. So the comparison to see these people did this in this environment, no one had done this before. There wasn't a roadmap that we could go and copy. So we were forging that pathway ourselves. And that was the great opportunity. And I definitely used that at that time to motivate the team, to say, this is an opportunity to set a standard, not just a standard in Australia, but a global standard. And that's what we did. In January, February actually, 2021, the wobbly moments came is that the government had a date when players could - international people could come into the country, and it kept on being pushed out. It started in December, then went to late December, then early January, then mid January. We was pushing the Australian Open back every week. And so we actually only started in February, which was two weeks, three weeks later than it normally happens.
Craig Tiley: And that was a wobbly moment. The other wobbly moment was certainly when we knew to get the players here. We had to get them. We had a deal with an airline to charter all their planes. We chartered close to 30 major aircraft from different cities around the world. The airline pulled out on the eve of us bringing the planes in.
Jennelle McMaster: Oh, that was right up until the night before.
Craig Tiley: We had to go and find other charters. We thought we had a hotel that we could use as a quarantine hotel. They pulled out, we had to get another one. So this wasn't as simple as asking a question. We work closely with the Victorian government. In fact, many of the leaders in the quarantine task force put together by the Victorian government were A380 pilots. All the pilots were out of work. And they are great logistical people. They know systems and processes and discipline and they were great leaders of our quarantine program. Just the pilots. Many of them came from Qantas. I could go through a list, I could talk to you for hours and hours of all the variables that we had, but we had to get 1200 people, of which more than half of them were superstar athletes on a plane in a city tested with no COVID, have to go through protocols wearing full PPP gear. Only 25% of the plane could be filled. Arrive in Australia, get transported, singularly in a bus, no contact with anyone, get into quarantine. We had thousands of buses get into quarantine and stay in quarantine.
Craig Tiley: And if you tested negative, you were allowed out for 5 hours a day under a very strict regime. Every 30 seconds there was a movement for 18 hours a day. Every 30 seconds there was a movement on getting players in and out, and of which about 30% were in hard lockdown because they came in and either were on a plane, they didn't test positive, they were on a plane where someone tested positive. So the whole plane had to be locked down and getting on the phone, getting on a zoom call with those 1200 people in different groups. We did that about six to 7 hours a day for 15 straight days. They're pretty upset, so you got to go and motivate them. And if they say when are we getting out? Sorry, I can't tell you. And then having to manage that. So I could talk for a long time on the specifics, I'm really summarizing it, but great learnings in leadership, in having to deal with that, great learnings in communication, the accusations of players on the other side that we can't get to stuck in a room that they have against you or the organization.
Craig Tiley: Because why they're stuck in this room, it wasn't the case when they came from the UK. Or when they came from Bulgaria or the US. And this is what it was coming into Australia.
Jennelle McMaster: I actually have a real desire to spend hours talking about this. But when you talk about those learnings and you talk about the diversity of people that you're interacting with, If I think about that stakeholder landscape that you are navigating locally and globally, looking back on that now, what would be some of those learnings that you had on managing such a broad stakeholder landscape?
Craig Tiley: Number one, communicate and start out qualify the communication. And I know for a fact I don't have all the answers. This is how you start. I know for a fact I don't have the answers. I know we're both in a very uncertain environment, but we're in this together, and I'm going to do the best I can to make it work for you. And every bit of communication started that way. We were communicating with the media. We flew in media from around the world. We had about 100 media. We normally bring in over 1000. We had 100 media come in. We flew them in. New York Times, Washington Post, Global Papers. So we had to manage them as well. I think the biggest leadership lesson was communication. And the second one was let everyone know that you are taking full accountability and responsibility. And if something goes wrong, you the ones there needs to be a single point that you the one said, I will fix it, or I'll do my best to fix it, but I'm accountable, I'm responsible. Be the person that stands in front of the community and the media and let them understand you're accountable.
Craig Tiley: So if something goes wrong, you're ultimately accountable. And you'll have to pay the price for anything that does go severely wrong. Even to our own team, even to them, talking to them, I said, this is on me. So you don't have to worry about you do the best job that you possibly can. I will take full accountability and responsibility for this. And you have to verbalize that. And a lot of leaders are afraid of verbalizing that because I may lose my job. I may be blamed for something. It wasn't my deal, but it is what it should be.
Jennelle McMaster: Craig as you say, this is something that we had never experienced in the world. There was no roadmap. The likelihood that anyone could know what was going to be needed or what we're going to have to navigate is zero. No one knew. Why did you have and how did you have that confidence to put yourself at the front, to assume full responsibility and accountability? Where does that confidence, the personal security, safety? Tell me about what is it in you that gives you that confidence to shoulder all of that?
Craig Tiley: I think for everyone, it comes from your leadership journey or from your journey, your life journey. And that's why I also do believe I feel like in many ways I'm just starting my career because there's just so much to learn and so much to take in. And I honestly believe that if you have the approach to your career where you don't have all the answers, everyone else does. And you're going to learn from them, and you're going to learn from the opportunities you get every single day. You're going to have an empathetic approach to it and not put yourself in front, but be the one that's willing to do all the work. I think the approaches principally that you take on the journey, and I do believe that those over time will come back in spades when you really need them. I was surprised on myself personally how I responded, and even going into 2022, which was even more difficult than 2021, I was surprised how I responded to that intense pressure globally, because I thought I would sleep less, be much more stressed, and really struggle with it. But I didn't. From a personal point of view, I slept really well.
Craig Tiley: I felt very calm, and it was very clear to me about what we needed to do.
Jennelle McMaster: I have to ask a secret. I'd like to know how in all of that, did you sleep so well? It feels like you found the Holy Grail there.
Craig Tiley: I don't know. I didn't take any sleeping tablets. That's a question. I think it was just maybe there was so much going on that by the time you got to take that opportunity to have a few hours sleep, you were just really tired. I think it may have been that I don't have the answer for that, but I do know, I do remember very clearly about having a lot significant sense of calmness on it. But that's why I always remind the lessons when I talk now about leadership in that is that everything you do every day is a building block. And if you do the right thing every day, if you learn every day, if you connect with people, if you listen and if you become part of the solution or part of the problem, and you have a great deal of care and compassion. As you do that, that becomes the building block for the next day and the next day and the next day. And eventually you've suddenly got this mountain of opportunity and learnings and experience that you will draw on even without knowing you're drawing on it.
Jennelle McMaster: As you outlined in there so many logistical challenges, communication, complexities decision challenges. There would have been a lot of human emotion throughout all of that time. All understandable (Craig Tiley – accusations). Accusations, yes, that's right. And they got personal. What did you find to be sort of sitting back or even reflecting on it then? What was the biggest challenge for you?
Craig Tiley: I'm a big believer in loyalty. When the pressure is on and the heat really gets on, you really find out from a leadership point of view, there was never really issues with people in the organization, but it's people that are impacting the organization from the outside, so who's really going to stick their neck out? And so you really find out the true colors of people in that period. And I got calls from people, friends that I hadn't heard from a long time, got calls from people that wanted to provide some advice and I will be forever grateful for that. And it was a great lesson for me. And now when I see someone having a difficult time, someone getting fired from a job or someone having a really difficult leadership time, particularly in a sport, and I always reach out, make a call and say, hey, do you want to have a chat about it? What's going on? This is what I've seen in the paper and it's not going to be the reality of what's really happening, so find out. And I didn't do that as much before that and it could be in any other sport or any other environment, and now I do it.
Craig Tiley: And I've actually really enjoyed doing it. Because you yourself learned some things too.
Jennelle McMaster: Yeah, that is a really important lesson. I do think it's those critical moments that people remember. We've had a few of them ourselves of late and it gives you pause when someone does take the time to pick up the phone and go, hey, how are you doing?
Craig Tiley: Yeah. And it's the time when you step up, the great leaders step up into the most adversity. I think if you welcome adversity as a tool to get better, you'll always get better. But if you look at adversity, as I mentioned at the beginning, at the outset, if you look at adversity as a problem, you are going to become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Jennelle McMaster: Such a good reminder. So we've taken all of that leading up to the event. Your planes have come in, even the one the night before has come and you've sorted through all of that and things have been planned within an inch of its life. What was it like during the event itself?
Craig Tiley: Players were in lockdown, staff were in lockdown. We had to secure in a matter of a few days, 800 exercise bikes, 800 treadmills, get them into the rooms. Teams had to take them into the rooms. This is where these 30 secnd movements had the bike was brought to the room. There could only be one person moving on the floor, which was the Quarantine team, full PPE, only one person in the elevator. I mean, the list goes on about the logistics of it. There were about over 2000 people just working on the logistics of the Quarantine program for the two weeks. And it was run independently by the Victorian government. So we worked closely in partnership with the Victorian government on that. And a remarkable achievement for the government to let us have that happen and then to showcase the event 2021. We're the first to do it. Having a global sporting event, bringing athletes in, our broadcasters stayed on the same level every nation in the world, and it was uplifting for people. They got back to seeing sport. Sport was actually happening in the middle of COVID so we were proud of the fact they were able to do that.
Craig Tiley: However, during the event, extremely difficult to give you a bit of a snapshot. The site was divided up into four parts so people could only move in a part they bought a ticket for. The way we had to wear masks, the way people sat in the stadium, the way they moved in the stadium, the way they queued, that all had to be monitored. And then the players, the interaction with the players we made a commitment to the government that we would not be the cause of one result of COVID spreading in the community because of people and international people we brought in. And we were not the outcome at the end of it. There was not one case that resulted on from putting on the event. So we did the right thing. It was confirmed, we did the right thing. It was high risk, obviously, but the right thing was done. But during the period, I think the thing I remember the the most was the absolute logistical challenges. There were some people that were still in lockdown. There was one athlete that came, and it ended up being for 27 days in lockdown, didn't get to play.
Craig Tiley: And so managing that and managing the health of some of the athletes, but remarkably, the 1200 people coming in, I think there was less than 20 or so that tested positive. But because they were on planes and around others, there was about 300 in full lockdown. No movement. We had to feed them in lockdown. A lot of funny stories that came out of it, if you look at some of the instagram accounts on how they use their room. So that was the most difficult part. And the difficult part was also was having to answer for things around health and quarantine I knew nothing about. And the media expect you, you're the spokesperson, they expect you to be an expert on that, and you're not. So you have to deflect a lot of those answers. And that's never easy because you do want to give someone the answer on something. So I think that was tough. And then I think that the concern each day that are we going to be shut down? Because there's the spread of the virus and completely shut down. Now we're at this position. But it was four weeks, we got through those four weeks.
Jennelle McMaster: As you said earlier, this was something that the whole world was experiencing and you had thousands of people that you were sort of responsible for or taking carriage of events around. You would have seen lots of emotions. What did you learn about the human experience and humanity and human nature?
Craig Tiley: I think people have changed generally I'm speaking after COVID than during COVID because I think during COVID there was a togetherness that we’re kind of in this together, we've got to find the solution together. And I think more than ever before, the world came together and then now we've all lost our minds after COVID the way politics are going on and business and economics. But during that time, I think the biggest learning I had is probably the art of what's possible, I think, to try and replicate how people behave. During that period, we were focused on people's lives, protecting the elderly, protecting the community and ensuring that people didn't get sick and if they had to go to hospital, doing the best thing they could. And then I think the other thing is, I learned, is the reminder that people in our workforce, the teachers, the nurses, the doctors, the security, the police, I will forever, during this period, be the massive advocate. I mean, I've always said they should be paid a heck of a lot more than they currently are. They should be the highest paid in our community because they keep it going.
Craig Tiley: I think there was a big learning in that. It was that group of people again that kept it going and it was a really good reminder, and I'm sure I've left out some. But to come back to where, in a very stressful, negative environment, we were always looking for the positive things we had to do, because that was the only way we're going to get out of it. And I think if you can put that on everything you do, every single day, you will achieve great things.
Jennelle McMaster: Yeah, I often think we should bottle to all of that in a different way, because, as you said, through adversity comes opportunity. And I think that opportunity was a united goal. To experience this world together.
Craig Tiley: You really have to embrace adversity, because we, as humans, we have a choice. There's one choice you have every single day in your life that only you own and that's how you respond to anything. And you can choose on your response to be whatever it is. And when things are tough and it's adverse, it's really hard work to choose to have the choice of looking, having a positive outlook and finding solutions and be part of the solution, because misery enjoys company. Negativity and misery, they are horrible traits, but they resonate a lot because a lot of people approach things that way. I think embracing it, I've taught myself to have that always only be my only choice.
Jennelle McMaster: Very powerful. And speaking of embracing adversity and choosing your own response after that, successful, although trying Australian Open come through on the other side of that and then we get smacked with a new strain. It's called omicron. So tell me about that and what that meant then, for the next Australian Open.
Craig Tiley: Well, just like a year before, I told the staff we'll be back in a month. Got it completely wrong. In September, I said, we're in the clear, COVID's done things are going well. So I think they start to look at me and say, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. We started planning for a full event. There may have been some restrictions on the number and the capacity. We started planning for a full event. And then it was actually only December when Omicron showed up, and we had to go through then start the exact same routine. It was still at that point, the government, if you recall, were trying to manage Omicron, so we're going back to lockdown. And then they realized that there's no ways this is too infectious to be able to put people in lockdown. It's too long, we can't manage it. So we just got to do the best we can to keep our distance. So they gave us permission to go ahead, but again, had to fly people in, had to manage the teams, put them in one hotel. There wasn't the two weeks of Quarantine we had before.
Craig Tiley: If there was positive cases, there was quarantine. So keep everyone apart, wearing masks, wearing PPE, and then running an event at that point. It wasn't like that a year before, but now there was a requirement to come in Australia and have proof of vaccination. And there were still many countries around the world that hadn't reached vaccination levels more than 10%, and there were still many people that were unsure about getting vaccinated.
Jennelle McMaster: We can't talk about this, Craig, without.
Craig Tiley: Exactly and that's the one that got all the global attention. I made people I hadn't seen since primary school contact me because they'd seen me. Some of my face plastered some way. So that was then the biggest challenge. 2022 was about vaccination, was about Omicron, was about keeping people safe.
Jennelle McMaster: Different waves, strategy around how to approach that. And we've now sort of danced across the Djokovic issue, which, as you say, generated quite a buz in the sports community, actually, the community more broadly. Even beyond that, it was what was going through your mind when people were questioning your leadership? You got your primary schoolmates weighing in with a point of view about it that you haven't heard from in I don't know how many decades. What was happening for you at that time as you again, once again leading from the front, but what was happening for you at the time.
Craig Tiley: That was more difficult, because that wasn't all of us together trying to solve for a solution, not the year before. That was becoming a meat and a sandwich. That was not having people on your team or on your side on it, because it was a highly politically charged environment. There was state and federal elections months away. It was a highly globally charged environment. There was massive arguments in the community about vaccination. And to be very clear, I think I was probably one of the close to being the first being Vaccinated. I think I've had five shots minimum. Already, I'm an absolute believer and you need to get vaccinated. The medical professionals know this best, and that was my personal view. But we had a process, we had a system in place. There was also a lot of uncertainty about what it was. There was no clarity, and if there was clarity, things would have been easy. But not just clarity from everyone, and including the tennis community. So people came in under conditions that they believed were the right conditions to come in on, had the right exemptions that they believed at that point. And then, as it turned out, at the 11th hour, like happened the year before in Omicron, things changed, and particularly changed for one, they changed for a few people, but the one person who got the most attention was Novak, because of his stance on vaccination.
Craig Tiley: I deal with Novak often, and my dealings with him have always been very good. He's very professional in dealing with it. He's upfront. We spent a lot of time together, and even after that whole incident where there was reports about us having a very strained relationship, we spent some time together. So that hasn't changed anything in the relationship. But it was a very difficult time and there were many Australians. It's the part I felt the most lonely, and again, it was how you respond to that loneliness, because there were many, in that case Australians, that I was blamed for trying to game the system bring, bring someone in that was not vaccinated and it was not the case. But you took the heat for that. And then when Novak left, then there was the stronger Serbian community, which is very large, who felt that he left unfairly. And then I became again, a lightning rod for that result, that outcome. But it goes with being a leader. Leader, it goes with the territory. You have to take it on, you have to speak to the community and speak to your own team. I was most concerned about our own team because a lot of people flying accusations all over the place that this was missed.
Craig Tiley: You shouldn't have done that, should have done that. Hindsight is always a great way to summarize a situation, but when you're in it, it's definitely not the same. So we made a decision that it's in nobody's interest to start pointing fingers, to start defending yourself. What was in our interest is to get on with it. Day by day, you just get on it. And people wanted sculpts, people wanted people to explain exactly what happened and did this. And it wasn't just that, it wasn't that straightforward, it was not possible to explain exactly what happened because a lot of things that happened we didn't even know about, but what was possible, what we could do. And that's again in leadership, making the decision when all that the heat was I had media security, whatever, parked outside my house, my home, here for two weeks. I was chased, there were death threats, but that goes with the territory at that time and people were highly charged and emotive in Australia too, in Melbourne, we were locked down for a long, long time and everyone were emotive about it. And I completely get that. I was in the same boat as everyone in that.
Craig Tiley: So it is a time when I don't think I'll ever face that kind of heat in leadership, hopefully ever again. But in that time that was very difficult because you felt like unlike a year before, where everyone is in the same boat. And now the community became more divided. And I think unfortunately, I think the community has taken a little bit of that ongoing post COVID of how we treat people and how we respond to adversity and how we respect our leaders. And I think it's also now been driven by the macroeconomic conditions. So I think there's understandably more stress and more pressure.
Jennelle McMaster: Thank you for your candor on that. That sounds horrific. I expected it wasn't a great time and that sounds terrible and I feel profoundly impacted when someone says that they felt lonely. It's a heavy word to use and I'm sorry that was such a tough time. What did you do? Apart from, okay, well, I'm in it and I just need to get through it day by day. Was there anything else you did to look after yourself and your family through that time?
Craig Tiley: Yeah, I think having great people, having a great team, I think again, a reminder as a leader, if you get an opportunity, have the people around you better than you are because that'll come back again and it'll come back to every single day in your organization. It'll come back to make it happen and then under real stress and pressure, it'll come back and do that. We had a board that was magnificent, so supportive in those situations. Obviously, sometimes you get boards that run for the hills and don't support their management team. And every single one of our board members at that time was led by Jane Hurdlick, who's the current CEO of Virgin. And she's obviously lived in stressful environments. Running an airline, I'm sure every day you worry about it and she led the board through it. There may be a couple of times there were some wobbly conversations, but never it was always they were rock solid. That was helpful. A management team that were under tremendous amount of stress themselves because they were all part of the process. So my job was to keep them motivated and keep them positive and that was probably my biggest challenge the whole time.
Craig Tiley: And then your family, how they being treated in the community was a challenge as well. But again, comes back to thing I said at the very beginning, don't go quiet, communicate. If you need help, ask for it. There's nothing wrong. And I think the team I lead the privilege I have right now to do it. I think they would say I put my hand up when we have a team chat I'll say things aren't going that great and I'll explain to you why and I just want to let you know. And so authenticity and transparency and that happened more than ever happened before and also not I didn't felt like from my team or our tennis community or our board that I was ever a target. I felt differently on the wider group and that's important and I think that's really important from your team, whether it be EY or wherever you are, you're part of this team and the loyalty to this team is really important and you can have disagreements but that's not lack of loyalty, that's just a disagreement. It's really surprising when people sometimes you don't know the tough time they're going through, that you have to lean in and support them and show your loyalty.
Craig Tiley: And an organization, you have to show your loyalty. And when things go wrong and it's not right, part of loyalty is calling it out, not being silent.
Jennelle McMaster: You're also, Craig, as a former coach, a highly reputed coach, how much of your own high-performance coaching strategies did you sort of call upon? Were you quite consciously deploying the very things that you worked with athletes on and or did you then develop new strings to your bow in this?
Craig Tiley: Oh it's a great question. I say it now is that I was so fortunate to have that grounding. I was actually listening to something last night is the Bud Light campaign and how a large percentage of the population in the US are boycotting Bud Lights like drop massive percentage points in sales. It was just interesting subject but there a leader that was an ex-Marine who's their CEO, a young guy in his forty s and he was talking about how he's dealing with this crisis and one thing that resonated with me said I'm not used to this. I've been in the Marines, I've been in the CIA. This is completely new to me to deal with this trying to figure this out and he put his hand up he said but I need people to help me figure it out. And you immediately felt for the person even though maybe was it a good decision or not? You don't know. I think in the case be able to draw on your background on I was fortunate I had a military background as well for a short while, for three years and I had a coaching background.
Craig Tiley: And drawing on those two and particularly on the coaching background, any parent or any person that has an opportunity to coach a group of kids, to grow to coach a group of adults in sport, in anything, go for it because the techniques you'll learn in that, you will use it's your best grounding. And I shouldn't say this when you talk about college because I have got graduate education and all that, but I think what's far surpassed all of that was my coaching background.
Jennelle McMaster: It's really interesting. I did seven years in the military and I will always it's funny, you sort of think we're in totally different contexts, but it's amazing. And I think you spoke to the building blocks of experience that you have and they are such fundamental building blocks around leadership, around camaraderie, around loyalty, around teaming, that absolutely help you grow.
Craig Tiley: I don't think compulsory conscription is a bad thing just for that setting up the community and population for the future. But I do think you're right. What's great about Australia as a nation is a lot of young kids, they finish school and they go and discover the world for a year or two and have their gap year. And I think that's a great thing too, because I do believe in getting out and finding out what's out there, talking to people, going to help things. I also believe in making a contribution to the community. You have to working for, not for profits, going to do things where you don't make any money, going to help people. It is your grounding. And any parent that has kids, if you're putting kids in that environment, you're setting them up for life and that beats even any formal education. So it is your journey and we have choices on how we approach that journey and just got to sit down, reflect and think and make the right choice.
Jennelle McMaster: So, Craig, what about now? We find ourselves in a different context. We're not in a shared situation of a pandemic, but we are in a difficult situation economically. The macroeconomic environment is tough, cost of living challenges, all sorts of stresses on us. What is it that you are thinking about and taking forward as you now plan the next big event in the current context?
Craig Tiley: Well, I'm careful how you answer about the future because based on what I told you before, I got it wrong in year one by saying it'll be a month and then I got wrong in year two by saying COVID's finished. But yes, I think the big difference now is in COVID we were all in it together, but from now an economic point of view, there's different levels of pain. So when you're in a leadership role and you have an opportunity to have an impact, you have to now have even greater levels of empathy for a much larger group of people, not knowing what different people are going through. So finding solutions primarily on how you respond to the environment and what contribution you make. So more than ever before, we have to lean in and find ways to help others because there's a lot larger group of people, I think with the economic headwinds that are ahead of us, there's a lot larger group of people that are going to be impacted. And as an organization, you got to think of ways you can do that, how you do that with your people, the type of flexible workforce you provide, the type of focus you have on what they should be paid.
Craig Tiley: And just realizing now we've gone through a tough medical time with COVID together and now going through a tough economic time together, but with different levels in that of where people's pain. Yes, I think it's now the empathy and the realization that more help will be needed.
Jennelle McMaster: Craig, I'm going to draw to a close here, not through want of wanting to ask you so many more questions. I was going to wrap up with what advice can you give? But I feel like this has been so loaded with advice. Is there anything else that you haven't covered off that you think is really important for our listeners to reflect on given the wealth of experience you've had?
Craig Tiley: Don't take it too seriously. We get this one opportunity to live our lives as do as best as you can, care for others more than you care for yourself, but still care for yourself because you've got to be in a leadership role and you got to set an example, be authentic, transparent. But again, don't take it too seriously. If you're not turning into the left lane because you've been slow on the light, you don't have to sit on the horn behind that person to get them to move. Just think about what that person may be in that car going through. You don't have to make it worse for them. So little things like that and all those little things, they add up to the big thing. And the big thing is the opportunities you create for yourself in life by doing the right thing.
Jennelle McMaster: Craig, thank you so much. You are the very embodiment of all of those things that you've said and I don't think we've ever had a crisis moment outlined as well as what you have done there painted that picture. The number one message for me listening to you is you own how you respond, that's the choice you make and through adversity is opportunity. And everything that you have said has shown your willingness and ability to lean into that adversity, to lead from the front. You navigated the unprecedented, you created your own roadmap. You did that with the help of others. And whilst you would own full accountability, take full accountability, you weren't afraid to put your hand up and rely on the and lean on the help of expertise of your team. The message around communication is really important as well. And I liked your questions around I don't know everything, but we will do this together and we'll work through this together. And I think that it demonstrates curiosity, it demonstrates empathy, it demonstrates collaboration just with those questions right there and your quiet confidence, your assuredness, but your humility and kindness is abundantly evident through this discussion.
Jennelle McMaster: So thank you so much for all of that. Plenty to reflect on, plenty for us to take forward. I definitely will think twice before I put my hand on the horn in the car, that's for sure, and ask myself, what's that person?
Craig Tiley: I hope that little comment does that. And I'm actually about to go to the Million Dollar Lunch, which is to raise money for supporting kids in cancer and kids with cancer. So I'm looking forward to doing that, spending a couple of hours and try and help them raise as much money as possible. But I think, again, I appreciate those comments, Jenelle, but at the end of the day, you're just trying to do your best. And I've been blessed, I've been lucky. I've got great people, I've got great family. And I've had adversity, particularly over the last several years, that I've been fortunate to be in a leadership role. So a lot of those things are lucky, too.
Jennelle McMaster: Well, many, many thanks. Good luck. Enjoy your lunch. And thanks for doing what you do Craig.
Craig Tiley: Great. Thank you.

Mike Baird
CEO | Hammond Care

Voice Over: The podcast discusses the events of the Lindt café siege and mental health and may be distressing for some listeners. If you need support you can contact Lifeline on 131114.
Intro: Hi and welcome back to Season 4 of Change Happens. I’m Jenelle McMaster and this is a podcast exploring leadership through key moments of change and the lessons that they have learnt along the way. In a world that’s constantly changing, it gets difficult to know when you’re going in the right direction or when it’s time to start a new chapter. For some people, moments of change whether it’s small or seismic comes into their lives but are not recognised for what they are until some time down the track. Others seek change and make things happen, seizing the moment and squeezing all the juice from the experience. For Mike Baird, his is a story and a life where the main constant has been change, a lot of which he seems to have fallen into and a lot of which he consciously chooses how and when to exit. His stint in politics, most notably punctuated by his time as New South Wales Premier is book ended by an exploration of theology and experiences in the world of banking. Now CEO of Christian aged care provider, Hammond Care, Mike uses his breadth of experience and knowledge to make meaningful change in the world around him. So with that, welcome Mike, I’m very excited to have you join us on this episode of Change Happens.
Mike: Thanks Janelle, great to be on Change Happens.
Jenelle: [laugh], now Mike, you’ve been in the limelight for a very long time and you have juggled different positions in many industries from, theology to banking to politics, back to banking and now to sports and aged care. It does seem like you have the appetite for a little bit of everything. When you look back at your career and all of those different things that I’ve talked about, is there a common thread there?
Mike: Look, I think the common thread is I’ve always had this sense of a wrestle and the wrestle was, you know, whatever I was doing, I wanted to contribute, I wanted in some way to kind of help communities, state or country through others. You know, how do you help others in that environment and certainly challenging myself is another thread. I mean, I love … I love change and doing different things is always stimulating. I love learning and I think that is something that’s … that’s been constant and I, you know, probably the last thing is it’s just, to me, any job that you’re in, you have to feel that you’re contributing, that you’re adding value and certainly not wanting to become stale and, you know, that’s something that I’ve always kind of reflected on and, you know, you know, career wise it’s certainly not linear. You know, there’s all types of different roles but I think all of those kind of the … probably the common themes as I go through them.
Jenelle: It’s interesting and we will come back to kind of recognising “how do you recognise when you are stale” so I’m interested in coming back to that point but before I do, your father, Bruce Baird, was a prominent political figure in New South Wales who served as the Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party. When you watched him work, what did you think it was that politicians did and what made you want to do that?
Mike: Well, its probably the opposite! What I saw, I thought I don’t want anything to do with. I, you know, I watched Dad in a range of times and moments deal with significant stress, you know, back in the day there weren’t iPads and, you know, checking news clippings on your iPhone. There were newspapers delivered at 4am and I used to have many memories of him sort of being at the bottom of driveway in a not … let’s call it “not stylish dressing gown” waiting for the papers to arrive and then you could see what his response was like. You know, as he kind of opened them up at the bottom of the driveway and, you know, you knew he was in for a day/a week/a month of stress, you know, off the back of it. So I’d looked at that and being “wow, that’s not really something that I want for me”. Having said that, there were moments that I thought “wow, you know, notwithstanding that world, there is significant things that can be achieved” and you know, two things he did that stood out to me was the Olympic bid. He was charged with running Sydney’s Olympic bid and that was a massive moment in, you know, the city and state and country’s history and he did a fantastic role in that and I thought that was amazing and then the other … he was in federal parliament and he did a lot with refugees and certainly, you know, standing up for them and, you know, Australia’s approach to them was something I was very proud of, as he sort of went through that. So I saw that sort of many great things could be done but the overwhelming sense to me was “that’s Dad’s thing, not mine and I’ll try and carve another career out”.
Jenelle: So, attracted to the idea of being able to have impact but put off by lots of things that you saw there and so wanted to take a different track but somehow you did find your way into politics and not only that, a Premiership. So becoming Premier is something that many politicians aspire to achieve. You’ve had this wrestle with it and it was a little bit more of a serendipitous experience that make … that found you into the role of Premier. I’m wondering if you can just talk us through the day that you got asked to step up and what was going through your mind.
Mike: Look, you know, I mean obviously once I’d decided after a wrestle that actually maybe I could make a contribution in politics and, you know, from door knocking homes to … to winning an election that, you know, all the polls said I wouldn’t, to having the privilege of representing the community, I, you know, found myself then in government and Treasurer of the State and it was an unbelievable sort of time. The exhilaration of having the opportunity to shape and build, sort of the infrastructure that had been promised and never delivered. Things like metros and duplications of Pacific Highway and schools and hospitals. It was an incredible time but then, yeah, there was this day that came along where I was speaking at an event. It was a sort of financial analysis and we were kind of talking about state of the economy in New South Wales and our infrastructure spend and I thought that it was going well but my media officer who was at the end of the table kind of had this sort of pained look on her face while I was sort of delivering and answering Q&A. So much so then I look down, I said … the first thing I said … I said “Rach, like what was wrong, like I thought that went well …
Jenelle: [laugh] I did well!
Mike: … did I say something not … not right or not answer the question”. She said “Mike, no … no stop … you know Barry has resigned”. I said “What!” No, he’s resigned. You know, he’s … he’s leaving the premiership and I’m like “oh my goodness”. So it was like the world has kind of stopped and I had almost … well basically 24 hours of kind of madness that ensued and you know, at the end of that I found myself standing in the premier’s office and saying “my goodness, how did this happen” [laugh].
Jenelle: What … tell me what was going through your head though, not just the “how did this happen” but how did you feel?
Mike: At the end of the 24 hours or at the start!
Jenelle: [laugh] Before, during, after!
Mike: I mean at the start it was just this overwhelming sense. I thought like who would be Premier and I thought “well maybe I could”. So … and then I immediately thought of my family and, you know, what would that mean to them and have to go see them. My overwhelming sense was to go and see my family and talk to them. I spoke to a couple of colleagues on the way out and, you know, there was a sense like “look, we think that if you want to do it, that we will back you” and so there was this surreal sense to it. I didn’t, in the 24 hours, make any phone calls. There were people calling round saying that he’s not calling anyone, this is ridiculous like, you know, does he want it, but I was quite clear in my mind. I just needed to get to my close friends and my family and, you know, be clear in mind that this is something that we think, because it was a collective that we should do, because I knew the toll it would take. I’d seen it and it was significant and it required everyone. So that … that period was very much about being clear in the mind, okay. This is something I can put my hand up for and then once I decided that in the morning, you know, I spoke to Gladys and said “look, if I’m running, would you be my deputy” and she was very keen to do that, I wanted her as a Deputy so we put our names forward and we announced that she and I would run as a team. When the vote came in, I went back to the office, I’m standing there, it was a sense of bewilderment, excitement but also trepidation. I knew the journey was going to have its challenges and I was also weighed down with kind of the history and the responsibility. You know, all of that kind of crack down but the next day was an exciting one because my first appointment was to show Wills and Kate around Sydney. So … it was a royal visit.
Jenelle: Wow, that’s not too shabby! [laugh] and Mike you said, you know, I can understand all of that melting pot of emotions in there but the fact that you said, you know, I knew the toll it would take. So you sort of did go … as bewildered as you were about it, eyes wide open from having observed your father, was there anything that you remember thinking about, even in that 24 hour decision making window where you were like, I saw … I know the toll it could take, here’s what I need to do to protect myself and my family, if I’m going to take this on. Was there some conscious thought around what you might need to do to mitigate that toll.
Mike: The answer is no. You know, what … and I worked that out as I went, you know, that was a learning and I wasn’t perfect early on but, you know, by the time I got to the end of my time in public life, I think I had a pretty good rhythm in terms of protection of self and family, social media, criticism, all those sort of things, I think there were good mechanisms in place but it was learnt. It was learnt through …
Jenelle: Mm, along the way!
Mike: … experience and you know, adult battle scars. I mean that’s where it came but no, look you know, to me it’s … the most important thing was wrestling with the family and like any family, there were sort of challenges and, you know, there were perspectives that we had to go through and, you know, sort of close friends discussing those openly, you know, with the family every single one talking through it. Before you jumped at it, that foundation needed to be set and it was set strongly. So once I had that and it cleared, confidence in that, you know, everything I thought could be dealt with. In terms of the downside, yeah I’d seen … my father, he hadn’t been Premier but I worked alongside Barry as well and when you work alongside a Premier, you know and can see, you know, what they deal with on a daily basis. Until you get there, you underestimate it but what I’d seen as Treasurer and watching it, I knew in essence, that it wasn’t going to be easy.
Jenelle: It certainly wasn’t going to be easy. There were several tragic events during your time as Premier. The biggest was the Lindt siege in 2014. That was just eight months into your term. What skills did you already have and attributes I guess, to lean on through that period of time and what new ones did you have to learn.
Mike: Well, it was … yeah, I mean, confronting in every way to sort of, in a crisis cabinet and obviously leading that crisis cabinet at a time like that was, you know, not something that you really prepare for and to find yourself there is … is kind of surreal but you know, in that moment, there was a reliance on the experts, you know, were all around, you know, that cabinet. There were people undertaking specific things, you know, transport was sort of going up and down to make sure that transport was available and people were being cleared out of stations. We had schools connecting … the Education Department connecting into, you know, all the school excursions who were across the city, finding where they were and acting. We had the health department sort of clearing space and room in hospitals nearby, all the adjoining hospitals and lining up obviously ambulance support. So there was this almost machine-like approach. So it was relying on the experts, you know, at that time and, of course, the police were working, and you know, in time there was some criticism of the action that I can tell you that from every minute that I saw, every single person then was doing whatever was in their capability, skill and experience to get every single one of those hostages out and, you know, I thought the police did an amazing job. I met the person and the team that actually went into that café, you know, late that night. The person that goes in first of those teams will always call their family when they’re assigned because they rotate who goes in first with the risk and, you know, so you know, that person had called his family, a couple of young kids and, you know, hard for us to imagine, you know, what that’s like …
Jenelle: Absolutely!
Mike: … there’s no … we have these incredible people that are there for moments like that and they don’t happen on that scale but happen regularly in sort of suburbs, you know. For me to see that and witness that, you know, was incredible and, you know, relying on that expertise, you know, was something that was clear and it was something that I’d done previously but never to that extent. I never had that scale or requirement. You know, the other thing I think was, you know, how do you deal with the community in that. I mean, people, you know, there’s tragic loss of life and I’ll never forget, you know, standing there and hearing the ambulances coming and knowing that it was likely that we’d lost young lives and Tori and Katrina were lost and, you know, there’s a couple of parts with it. You know, the first is, you know, connecting into those families and it’s always something that I sort of tried to do, that is connect personally to people and, you know, empathy. Just empathise with this incredible tragedy. You know, we … very hard for us to understand in any way what that would be like but I felt their pain and I think that was part of the role of, you know, sort of being there, engaging, doing what we can to support, you know, sharing in pain and celebrating two incredible young Australians who we lost. So that’s just a human element, isn’t it and just trying to be human is what I try to do and, you know, I had a role but, you know, this was just, you know, me as my connecting into family members in a way to try and help with their pain and then all the hostages as well. I mean, what trauma they went through and, you know, engage with them sort of over weeks and months and even years. I’m still seeing some even recently. So you know, that human element, I think, was something, so experts in human and then, you know, the last is like how do you kind of lead people in response and I mean it could have gone two ways. I think, there was the sort of great anger and there was hate and kind of wanting vengeance almost for what had taken place and, you know, there was a great risk that that’s where the city could go but there was this sense of amazing grace and I think that rather than hate, there was love and, you know, you saw that. There was a unity and a love that came and, you know, the best of people was actually demonstrated so how do you connect with that and how do you create that. I mean I was … I was approached by a group of young Muslim leaders that I had engaged with in my time as Premier and, you know, they reached out and said “look, we want to go and put flowers” … if you remember the flowers, that’s how people showed it to me …
Jenelle: I do, absolutely! Such a powerful visual.
Mike: Yeah, and people just came to put flowers. You know, to tell Tori and Katrina’s families, we’re with you, we’re so sorry and … and I also think then to the hostages and say “you know, we’re glad you’re safe” and this city, we love this city and we love our freedoms, we love our values and, you know, there was all of that and, you know, these young Muslim leaders wanted to come and put flowers there and they contacted our office, you know, my office and I said “look, I’ll go with them”. I had met them previously and I said “no, let’s … let’s go and do this together” and, you know, there was trepidation in that but, you know, as we went down, I needn’t have worried. The response from the crowd … oh, it will stay with me always because, you know, there was, you know, fears about young Muslims and the ideology that was, you know, community kind of fear but here were young men that were against extremism. Now they had a Muslim faith but they cared deeply for what had taken place and they just wanted to express their concern and love. As they walked through, there were people that were patting them on the back. You know, they hugged them and, you know, there were tears and there were thank yous and it was … it was beautiful and as they put it down, you know, one of them said to me “I have never felt more part of Australia than today.”
Jenelle: Wow!
Mike: So, you know, in those sort of moments, you know, how do you connect into the best of people as opposed to visions of retribution and hate and, you know, I think we saw in the city that week in particular, the best of the best. There was this wonderful spirit of support and mourning and grieving and unity that I hadn’t really seen before. So you know, through the experience, all those sort of things, I mean it was a pretty impactful time for, you know, many people and obviously personally as well.
Jenelle: It’s … it’s a really great reminder particularly given the context that we find ourselves in today, that in times of crisis we can and should come together in solidarity, rather than factionalise in anger and, you know, polarised positions on things. During the same period and there was a long that was happening. Literally in the same period of time, you also had to comfort a family who had lost a son on Malaysian Airlines MH17. You also had to absorb the pain of the policing community after the shooting of the unarmed police civilian finance worker, Curtis Cheng. Lots going on Mike and as you say, you feel these things deeply. Who … who did you turn to yourself during this period of time.
Mike: Yeah, I mean that’s … I mean, as you bring them back, there’s flashes and kind of memories and yeah, I mean, you know, the pain of all those are real and, you know, those families said “are you still … would be feeling it, you know, acutely”. So yeah, look I would connect in with my wife. You know, she’s kind of been a soulmate on my journey and, you know, she was there in the darkest days and the best days and certainly these days, as I went through those. She was great comfort, you know, as a faith, I mean I have a faith so that sustained me, sort of through that and, you know, looking for encouragement and support and there is, you know, the church I went to were supportive. You know, many in there were supportive and close friends. You know, there was just a group of close friends that I engage with and, you know, could tell them honestly, you know, how I was feeling and the impact things were having because there’s, you know, there’s a sense of being authentic but, you know, your kind of deep pain is … is very difficult to kind of share, you know, on a wide public scale, you know. I mean, people are interested but not necessarily that interested [laugh], you know, can you just make the trains run on time please …
Jenelle: [laugh] Exactly.
Mike: … you know. So, and that’s totally understandable. So there is a sense that there is just a sort of select few that I think is important and, you know, it’s a lonely place. Leadership is a lonely place and, you know, someone once said to me that as a leader, that probably the loneliest place is in the busiest room, you know, or the busiest times and …
Jenelle: Wow!
Mike: … there’s kind of frenetic energy and things around you but it’s just you and your thoughts and dealing with complex issues, difficult issues and knowing there’s, you know, very few people that you can … you can kind of share that with. So having them, you know, that collection, was incredibly important in those times and, you know, that pales in comparison to all the families that you just spoke about, what they’d been through. So, you know, also mindful of that.
Jenelle: Thank you for that vulnerability. I mean I do think it’s a big thing to say about … to talk about the loneliness of leadership. On the discussion of leadership, when you and I spoke the other day, I was really struck by the way that you spoke about how you saw leadership and leadership roles. Almost like you had … you were so deeply connected to it but you also have a distance from it, almost like it’s an object. You said and I think these were the words that you used around leadership “hold it lightly, use it greatly”. What did you mean by that and tell me how … what that looks like and looked like for you.
Mike: Yeah I think as I have looked at leaders and observed them, been alongside leaders, there’s many who … you know, when they get into roles of significance and, you know, any senior management position really, you know, people start to kind of link, you know, their identity and who they are into the roles and, you know, to me that was always unhealthy because, you know, I mean leaders come and go and there’s much more about any person than just, you know, the job they do or the role they have or the responsibilities they have, you know, who are they as people, you know, what are their dreams and aspirations, you know, the dignity and respect of them goes well beyond kind of any role and that … that was always a sense to me. Like hold it lightly, you are not defined by it and, you know, just because, you know, I’m a CEO today, you know, I am no more important than a care worker that is currently in one of our facility in a specialist dementia cottage, you know, looking after people living with dementia, challenging incredibly important purpose filled work and, you know, they’re doing an amazing job and my job is to try and help them do that. Now, I’ve got roles and responsibilities as CEO but that doesn’t make me any more important than them. Indeed, anything I can do to help them, then I’m doing my job and I think that that’s, you know, the best form of mindset, you know, it’s just … you have this role and responsibility but it’s not you, you know. There’s much more to you in terms of humanity and character and values and dignity and value, well beyond a role and, you know, that’s one side of it. The other side is that, which is kind of connected, you know, I’ve read this book called “Martin Buber”. He speaks about two ways that we can communicate in life. It’s called “I-It and I-Thou” and most of the world is I-It and that is every single interaction is kind of transactional, you know, a boss saying to you on Monday “well how was your weekend?” Great, tick the box, okay this is what I need from you this week. That’s the classic kind of I-It. You’re not valued, you’re not engaged. It’s just functional and the I-Thou is different. It’s tools down. You know, it’s connecting in individually personally. Not with yourself involved. You’re thinking of others. You engage with that. You’re looking at events, moments and people, most particularly, with a context of who they are and the value and I try to use that and it’s the same thing in terms of holding it lightly. It’s … yes, you know, CEOs out there, if you’ve got the CEO title but that person in front of you deserves a Thou, not an It, you know, drop everything, your inbox, your next meeting, your last meeting, your important sort of board papers that are coming up – stop. Like right in front of you is someone that’s significant value and they are the most important person right now. What they need, what they need to say, what they need you to do. Just sit and be and listen and, you know, that takes the title out of it and the role out of it, the leadership position out of it and it becomes back to this, you know, human interaction. So that’s something which is holding it lightly. I try to do kind of regularly. From the moment I was kind of dropped into that understanding. As I said, if you read the book, it’s hard to understand. I had someone explain it to me, Electra, you know, that’s the stuff we do, very powerful and then using it greatly. I think that it’s the same thing. All leaders, like you’ve got a finite time, you know, an average kind of three to five years as a leader, senior leader. Well use it. Give it a crack. Don’t … don’t just tread water, you know, don’t just keep doing what is being done. I mean some of it sure, that might make sense but challenge yourself, challenge the team, look for the opportunities that others might have thought were too hard, take on the challenges likewise that have been put to someone else to deal with it – you do it. All of those things, like use it because that’s what I think is missing. If you talk to most political leaders, there’s this research that was done, almost all and it applies as much to CEOs and leaders of charities, not-for-profits, super funds, it doesn’t matter. When they leave their roles, their biggest regret is they didn’t take enough risk. So I think there’s that sense. You have this role, use it, you know, take the risk, be bold.
Jenelle: I love that, love that and can I say, whilst I have never said, never thought about the words “you deserve a Thou, not an It”, it makes me think, even the other day Mike, I walked into a room to speak to somebody and they were busy as I always am and other people are and they had their laptop open in front of them and I walked in and they put the lid down and that, whilst I wouldn’t have put these words to it, as I think about it now, that was a really symbolic moment of feeling like a “Thou” and not an “It”. They put their laptop screen down and said “I’m here for you, what is it you want to talk about”. I think it’s just incredibly powerful so really really stays with me.
Mike: Wasn’t that … isn’t that great Jenelle, like it was clear that you felt that you were prioritised, important and there was a different sense in that interaction than if that laptop had stayed up.
Jenelle: Absolutely. I reflected on it when I was driving back. I mean it really struck me. I was like the smallest gesture completely the temperature in the room. It stayed with me, the fact that I was driving home and thinking about that small move made me go “those are the things that matter and I’ll make sure that I do that too”. Mike, despite the challenges that we talked about then as you were in the Premier role, from the outside it did seem like you were living the dream. You made a substantial impact as Premier. You were thought to be a shoo-in as the next Prime Minister of Australia. All the signs were pointing to a long and successful career in politics but, and you know, we talked about what it was like to find yourself accidentally in the role. If that was a surprise advancement to make Premier, then I would say it was equally a surprise, if not more so to the country, that you then decided to resign halfway through your government’s first term. It was a decision that made many Australians wonder “what the hell happened there” and sadly, I’ve got to say when a politician steps down saying they want to spend more time with the family, we probably sort of, it’s maybe a damning thing on us that we’re almost conditioned to believe that there’s a scandal story about to emerge, that they’re wanting to get ahead of. So maybe we still haven’t made sense of it. Is there something that you want to come clean with now. What was the story there Mike?
Mike: [laugh]. No no and I’ve had people come up me afterwards and say “you know, I was just suspicious that there was something going on”. I mean they were lovely. They said we didn’t want you go and we wanted you to stay but it was one of the hardest decisions I’ve made but also one of the easiest and I think, probably three factors played a role in it. I mean, one – you know, there was sort of goals and objectives. If you go back to the beginning, I never wanted to go into politics and be institutionalised. I thought, you know, it would be great to have an opportunity to go in and make a difference and then to leave. So I had always in my mind had, you know, if I was given an opportunity to be, you know, treasurer I would use it as much as I could and then, you know, hand it across and go and do something else in my career. Just a chance to contribute was a way I look at it and before I went in, I did a list of all the things that I would love to have achieved if I was given the opportunity in government and in politics. So coming up to the third year, I … and I’d been three years as treasurer and obviously three years as Premier, so I was kind of six years in that front line roles and I looked at the list and I had ticked everything. I, you know, the big part was the infrastructure piece. I thought I could use the finance background I had to try and unlock some capital and deliver the infrastructure the state needed: schools, hospitals, roads, trains, you know, sporting facilities, cultural facilities, you know, regionally and in Sydney. So that had been achieved. We had just signed off on the final sort of transaction and that was a long journey. I thought “okay, I’ve achieved that”. The second which was also important was by the time I got towards the end, we’ve spoken about some of those difficult events and, you know, that’s the time and MPs, Ministers and Premier will often interact with people in really tough situations, tough circumstances and we’ve gone through some of those and I’d always been able to kind of connect in and feel the pain, you know, of those I was meeting with and I realised, you know, for the last couple of months, actually when I’d been in those meetings I had felt nothing. I was completely and utterly numb and that amazed me. I’d never had that feeling. I didn’t know where it had come from and, you know, I think that part of it is there is this sense of self that … that is broken when you interact, you know, on some of these stories or, you know, I remember seeing, you know, a poor man in public housing who was kicked out of public housing on Christmas eve, you know, so he had nowhere to live on Christmas day and, you know. That’s just one example but there are so many like that and that, you know, you feel that and I’d always had but that numbness concerned me and I thought “well I don’t know how I can do this job if I don’t feel that at all or empathise when you’re faced with those situations and people” and then the last one was the family and people are cynical on it but, you know, the toll. I mean my … my daughters were bullied on the lockout laws, you know. They were introduced by Barry. I continued them, you know, I believed in them because they were saving lives and, you know, my daughters copped the brunt. My eldest daughter never ever told me, never told me that she was being bullied. She just said she was proud of me for sticking to what I believe in but she had been impacted by politics. She ended up sort of moving out of Sydney, you know. She just didn’t like the attention. She obviously didn’t like me being attacked at times and so the family carried this burden, you know. My wife was unbelievably supportive, you know, she obviously concerned for kids and all, you know. We had intruders come to the house. We had security 24/7. We had drones fly around, you know, we have police follow us, every single member of the family at times for weeks. Television cameras at 4.50 in the morning. It all takes a toll. At the same time, my sister was unwell and my Mum was diagnosed with a serious disease and I was unable to be with her, you know, in this role. So that collection, you know, was a significant thing because it’s such a privilege and a joy to have the responsibility of leading the state and being the MP of my community but as I was weighing all that up and going away for a week and my wife said “no, it’s time, I think it’s time”. So the moment that decision was made, there was this sense of relief and, you know, since I’ve left I haven’t sort of wished I was back but the same time, incredibly proud and thankful for the opportunity I have.
Jenelle: Ooh, that makes complete sense and I understand it on every level, with your family, with yourself. It’s … there’s stuff that you’ve talked about there which I can completely relate to as a … somebody who used to be … I was a psychologist in prisons and when you give yourself, I mean you have a lot of empathy, it does take its toll and sometimes what you need is self-preservation which is where the numbness kicks in. When the numbness kicks in to self-preserve, your ability to be as effective because that … your very super power is the thing that you are keeping at bay. You know, that empathy, it’s really something difficult to grapple with so I completely relate to that. If you just think about that dynamic, when your super power, so your empathy, like your ability to connect to feel things deeply becomes the very thing that then takes a toll and you have to self-preserve. What have you taken forward from that as you’ve gone onto your other multiple careers, knowing that about yourself. What have you taken forward from there?
Mike: You know, knowing that, there’s … there is self-preservation. So, you know, I will be very careful now that if I am sort of run down or feeling not just tired but bone tired, or you know, not yet numb but feeling those warning signs, then I’ll disconnect and, you know, I will take time off and, you know, and with my incredible EA Belle, it will be no communication time, you know, so emails/phones like just time off and genuine time off. So I’ve got much better at that but also you don’t, you know, there are times that you need help and I’ve sought kind of help as well and I certainly think in terms of mental health, we don’t talk about that enough and there are kind of experts and tools that can help and, you know, if there are events and circumstances you’ve been through, sometimes you can’t see, you know, or feel or truly understand the impact, but being prepared to do that, I think is important. So, you know, that’s something that I’m much more conscious now than I never would have and, you know, that’s thanks to my Mum who, you know, after the siege she couldn’t sort of talk at the time, so she had to type, you know, for a period towards the end of her life and she said “you know, go see counsellor” is what she told me after the siege and I said “no, it will be okay Mum, it will be okay, I’ll be okay” but, you know, she was right, you know, I should have. So, you know, that’s helpful but it is protecting. I mean everyone has super powers, a bit generous Jenelle, I mean that … I’d call that, you know, something I love, engaging with and, you know, hopefully it’s part of my leadership and, you know, in that, you know, using it, you know, so protecting and in using it is important and I never want to shy away from it, you know, I never want to be in the position where I am numb. If something is coming, I want to be there and if you think about the Thou. If someone is in a really tough situation, they don’t want someone sitting there “glazed”, you know, they want someone to listen and to understand and to connect in a way that’s deeply human. So I always want to use it but, you know, you have to protect it. I think that’s right.
Jenelle: So speaking of you coming out politics looking for some restorative time there, but a month later you transitioned into the role of Chief Customer Officer at NAB. What was your thinking and rationale for heading back into banking.
Mike: Yeah, well it was … yeah I mean I was called the Saturday after I’d resigned and yeah, it was three months before I started in the role and it was what I was familiar with. You know, I’d spent 20 years in banking. I needed to work. I was obviously very familiar with banking, yeah I’d spent actually a lot of my career on the wholesale side and this was to run a wholesale bank and I was excited by it, you know, and I sort of certainly … the CEO was someone I respected and, you know, had known, high values, sort of great visions. So yeah, it was a brand new chapter. So you know, going from, you know, the Premier and then having three months off and it was crazy three months and, you know, if I roll back the clock, you know, notwithstanding the financial need because I mean there was no pension for my class and above. So since 2007 there are no pensions for MPs but I still should have taken more time. So, you know, to go back into a role was a bit early but having said that, I loved it. Really really enjoyed the role but it probably takes about 12 months to get through the dust and scars and turmoil of a stint in politics.
Jenelle: Politics, yeah! You took on few more C-suite roles before landing into your current positions as the Chair of Cricket Australia and the CEO of Hammond Care, two very different organisations.
Mike: Mmmm.
Jenelle: There seems to be a common thread of opportunities for change finding you at times when you’re ready to close a chapter and start something new. Is that how you see it and how do you make your decisions about which opportunities are the ones to take?
Mike: Yeah, well it’s … yeah, my wife would say as I went from politics and then to banking which had a royal commission during my time there and then I went into aged care where there was a royal commission kind of underway, so it’s kind of so forth
Jenelle: [laugh]. Okay, so you like royal commissions.
Mike: Well I do love a challenge and I love, you know, the opportunity to impact people, to lead teams, to change cultures, to tackle impossible things. I’ve always enjoyed that. You know, banking – there is a clear kind of outline, you know, with the royal commission on culturally what was wrong with the sector and, you know, I saw it in elements that, you know, when I was there. So I think they’re well overdue and needed in terms of that cultural reset across the sector. You know, the way you treat customers, engage with customers, engage with the community. So I think that, you know, to a degree there has been significant change. I don’t think enough change in that sector. You know, aged care similarly. I mean, we do it. There were some terrible stories of neglect and sort of broke the hearts of many across the country but, you know, I think the royal commission’s made a number of recommendations. The governments, you know, on both sides, significant funding commitments, increased funding commitments from the current government, there’s real hope there. You know, the opportunity to help, you know, those carers, you know, when I go back to my personal experience, I ended up in Hammond Care predominantly because I’d seen aged care through my Mum and the wonder of it. You know, how important it was and the carers and the work they did. So the motivation wasn’t just the challenge but there was a personal connection and I thought “wow, if I can, as CEO, help them, then that’s something is really worthwhile and purposeful in itself. So … and that’s part of it. I think that the sector was sort of under pressure, underfunded, undervalued and I’d seen to know “look, I get that and I can get this neglect but I can tell you I’ve seen the wonder of this, these care workers – they change lives and they have the biggest hearts and we should be celebrating them and we should be valuing them and I think as a country, we should be and we should be valuing our elderly”. So all of those kind of thoughts and perspectives, you know, to be able to roll into this role, I thought “well, what a fantastic opportunity to lead” and cricket … look cricket was a passion project, on the tragic cricket follower. Some people don’t like the word “tragic” but I … that’s a good description because there’s not a match I wouldn’t watch. I’d watch every minute of the …
Jenelle: [laugh]
Mike: … every test match if I could. The World Cup has just shown how incredible it is. Someone like Meg Lanning, I think is one of Australia’s great leaders …
Jenelle: Outstanding!
Mike: … and incredible achievement on the cricket field. To have the chance to shape a sport I love and I’ve, you know, been involved in club cricket, I’ve played a lot myself and sort of have the chance to serve and contribute in this way is … yeah it’s a privilege as well. So yeah, enjoying all of it Jenelle.
Jenelle: I can hear that. So for my final question. What’s left to do that you haven’t yet tackled or achieved.
Mike: [laugh] Well Jenelle, I’m not sure. I mean I think … I mean I feel still youngish [laugh] …
Jenelle: You look still youngish.
Mike: … I learned in the last couple of weeks that I’m about to become a grandfather for the first time … that’s kind of breaking news …
Jenelle: Congrats!
Mike: … and, you know, that’s a new chapter in life which I am very much looking forward to. I think that will be very special to have that. So look, I would say Jenelle, I’m … I’m open. I don’t know whether I would take another senior role, in times, so an executive style role or whether I might do portfolio. I’ll keep working. I think my wife said “you can wind back a bit but you’re going to keep working and if you didn’t, you would drive us all crazy”.
Jenelle: [laugh]
Mike: So I’ll certainly be doing something, but it’s kind of exciting. For a big part of my life, there’s been very clear idea of where I’m going and what I’m doing next. That’s … I’ve almost always had that but I think I’m at a period where I’ll just be open to what could come and sort of working with people or in cultures and purpose would be something that I look forward to, but you know, also a bit of grandfather time.
Jenelle: Ooh, that’s so exciting. Congratulations to you on that and I think I look forward to seeing how the many more chapters ahead of you unfolds. No doubt you’ll have huge impact and Mike, I wanted to say massive thank you for joining me today. What a wonderful discussion. For me, your purpose around contribution through others is really clear. You used the words and, you know, in really simple ways. You said “I try to be human” which sounds really simplistic and … but there’s a real humility and a real genuine and critical and powerful element to that, trying to be human really is what it’s about. It’s just being. I think as you reflect on some of those situations with you as Premier and the Lindt situation, there’s a real reminder in there about the power of coming together in solidarity, rather than turning on each other and the need to connect into the best of people. I think that’s within us all. I really feel the power in your words around leadership. Holding it lightly and using it greatly. Holding it lightly – that brings a beautiful stewardship philosophy to everything that you’ve done, that puts ego at bay and puts you very much in a servant leader position and then using it greatly. I love that call to action, have a crack, have impact, take on the challenge, be bold and dare I say “make change happen”. I will forever, hold on the words of “you deserve a Thou, not an It” and all of that represents and thank you also for sharing the toll that things have taken on you and what you’ve learnt about recognising the signs and the signals around seeking help, giving proper time off and my takeaway, by the way, from all of that was “listen to your mother” and so I’m going to make my children listen to this and that’s their big takeaway too.
Mike: [laugh]
Jenelle: So thank you so much Mike, it’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.
Mike: Pleasure … pleasure to join you Jenelle, really appreciate it, thank you.
END OF TAPE RECORDING

Ronni Kahn AO
CEO & Founder | OzHarvest

Jenelle: Hi, Ronni. I feel like this recording has been a long time coming for us. As it turns out …
Ronni: Four times, maybe five we’ve moved it.
Jenelle: Maybe four or five. But you know, all good things come to those who wait. And as it turns out, this will be the last podcast of the season before we head off on a break. And I honestly couldn’t be happier to be closing out the year, and the season, with you. So, maybe it all worked out for the best. Thank you for joining me today.
Ronni: It’s an absolute pleasure.
Jenelle: Before we get into it, I do want to just check in and ask how you are, Ronni. You have a really strong connection to Israel, having spent 20 years there, nine of which I know you lived in a kibbutz. You had your two children there, and I know you were over there fairly recently, around about the time when the war began in early October. So, there’s no really easy way to cover this, but I just wanted to check in on how you are doing.
Ronni: Thank you so much. It is very hard to disassociate what is happening in the wider world and bring it down to … without bringing it into the microcosm. You know, I’ve just looked at some hate mail that’s come in, and it’s distressing, you know? It’s distressing that there’s so much … first of all, there’s so much pain on both sides. That we have leaders, or lack of leadership, on both sides that’s doing what’s best for the people. Although, how does one know what is best for the people, you know? It’s complex, it’s very complex.
So, on a personal level, it’s challenging. But I am hopeful. I spent the weekend with the most wonderful Palestinian peace activist, in conversations like I’ve never had before with my brethren, really. I lived in Israel for 20 years, we never had those kinds of interactions. So, I am hopeful, and intending to work with him on what a dual narrative could look like.
Jenelle: I do, and I love the hope in you. It is an unimaginable situation and complex, as you say, Ronni. But thank you again for joining me today, I’m ever so grateful for your time. And I do love the rattle of your bangles; ordinarily, I’d be like give me the … but it’s so inimitably yours, so, long may the bangles rattle away there.
Ronni: Well, I do always say to sound tech people when they look at me if I’m about to do a keynote or I’m about to do a talk, and they look at me, and they’re about to say, can you please remove your … and I say, your problem, not mine, this is what I come with.
Jenelle: I’m glad I didn’t dare make that request, I know you a bit better than that. Thank you, Ronni. Now, to kick things off, I want to start with cake. A lot of cake, thanks to your mother. She sounded like … she sounds like an incredible woman. Tell me about her.
Ronni: You know, it’s funny because I have just also received an email from someone who said, I have just finished your book, and the timing was so perfect, and I thank you so much. So, it’s so funny that I’ve been pulled back into it. My mother was extraordinary. Actually, my dad had an accident, and my dad landed up in hospital for the next two years, and they didn’t think he’d survive, but he did. They didn’t think he’d walk, but he did.
But the truth is, my mother had three young children and became the breadwinner overnight, cos my dad lost his job, of course. And she got up in the morning and said, what can I do? What do I know? And one of the things she knew was she was a great baker. And a friend in Italy said, why don’t you bake a few cakes for my little club, and it landed up to becoming 100, 200, cakes a day in her home kitchen.
Jenelle: Ronni, I don’t say this lightly, but you’ve lived so many lives to get to where you are now. But way back in the beginning as a youngster in South Africa, what did you think you wanted to be growing up?
Ronni: Well, you can laugh at the first, and you probably will smile at the second. So, the first was … I thought a postmaster would be really fun. Cos, I had a stamp kit set, and you know, I thought, how fun would that be? Just stamping envelopes all day. So, not that aspirational. And then I thought being an air stewardess would be very glamourous and a way to travel the world.
Jenelle: But you did travel the world, and you probably did feel like you were stamping lots of things metaphorically through your life. So, you know, it’s there.
Ronni: It all ties in.
Jenelle: It does, it does indeed. At the risk of skipping big chunks of your life which I’m sure we’ll come back to later; you ended up in event planning after your move to Australia. Why did you choose to get into that industry, and how did you get that first big break?
Ronni: When I think about it, the choices I’ve made have been to leave South Africa, to live on a kibbutz, to leave the kibbutz, to live in Australia, and do what I knew. So, the thing that I knew when I came here was floristry. When I left kibbutz, my sister had bought a florist, so I joined her. And we had a very successful florist. And then I came to live in Australia, and the only thing I wasn’t going to do was floristry.
I did a year of interior decorating and then somebody offered to set me up in a florist. So, I didn’t know I was entrepreneurial, but was I knew, I had my florist, and one day somebody came in and said, will you do the flowers for my wedding? I said, yeah. And they said, what else do you do? And I said, what else do you need? And she said, the hall’s a bit drab. And I said, sure, I can make that look beautiful. And that’s how I fell into event planning.
Jenelle: I have heard you say that you, you know, what you know you can do is sell anybody a dream, but then deliver on it. What gave you the conviction that you can deliver on it? Cos your dreams weren’t small ones; they weren’t tiny little visions here. You had some big, big, big, grandiose ideas, but you could deliver on it. Where was that, I don’t know, the confidence and conviction, the chutzpah maybe, that you could deliver on that?
Ronni: It’s interesting, cos I have actually … I guess that’s part of this ability to … for flexibility, agility, and the spirit of going for it. I had moved countries, I had walked into a shop that I had never touched a flower, and it turned out to be a perfect medium for me. It turned out that selling I was good at, and it turned out that business I was good at. So that, I suppose, without ever deconstructing it, gave me a level of confidence. I then knew that I needed to move countries with two children, no jobs for either myself or my then husband, and no money. But decided we could do this.
Jenelle: I mean, if I think about what you’re saying, though, that some of it was born out of necessity. Then, you started to build up little proof points in your own ... cognitive rewiring. I can do that, well, I can probably do the next thing. So, these rolodex of proof points that you were building up for yourself to give you that level of self-belief and conviction was there.
Ronni: Yeah, I love that notion of proof points. Because it is such an important thing, and as you say, it makes it much more simplistic to understand.
Jenelle: So, cow manure, a perm, and the lightning of Soweto. They may not be the most natural, or the most obvious, segues to my next question, but I want to assure our listeners that this does make perfect sense. Tell me about those three pivotal movements that led up to you forming OzHarvest.
Ronni: I think Soweto is really the most pivotal. Because when I went to visit South Africa for that week, and that’s … this is what I did before I started OzHarvest. I’d already had the idea, I’d started rogue food rescuing, my business was kind of growing, but I thought I was starting loving giving food away way more than loving draping ceilings and wrapping napkins.
But I went to visit this beautiful, wonderful woman, Selma, who’s an activist. Didn’t really know that much about the activism she was doing because I’d been out of South Africa for so long. She said, we’re going to go to Soweto. And growing up in South Africa, I’d never been to Soweto. It was three kilometres from my home, but it was a dusty, swarming, seething, mass of humanity that did not welcome white people. And that’s what I left; that’s what I knew.
And Selma says, we are going to visit Soweto. And as we drive into Soweto, when she turns round and says, just under her breath and matter of factly—and that was not the reason we were going to Soweto—and she said, by the way, I am responsible for electricity in Soweto. The hairs on my arms stood up. And all I could think of was, I want to know what that feels like.
And by the time we got to the AIDS clinic, which she had set up because she’s a doctor, I knew that my life would never be the same again, and that I wanted to know that feeling, and therefore I could rescue food, cos there probably were enough people—I knew nothing about the facts—that might need food, I knew nothing about the fact that 36 billion dollars’ worth of food goes to waste, I didn’t know that then. But I thought, wow, that’s what I’m going to do.
Jenelle: How did Selma come into your orbit? She seems like an extraordinary woman.
Ronni: My family and Selma’s family grew up next door. Selma was a doctor; she went to work, her children came to us every day so that my mother could feed them. But my mother went to Selma, cos she had a different kind of wisdom. So, they were very close, and as families we were like brothers and sisters. And I have to share something which I have not shared with anybody because this is what happened when I went to South Africa now.
Selma’s son fetched me from the airport because he is now the CEO of South Africa Harvest. And I went back, because they had just delivered their 50 millionth meal, and to see Selma. And Alan said, I’m going to take you to … past our houses. Our house, mine was number 17, his was number 13, and the numbers were odd, but the houses were next to each other. And he said, you’ve need to see something: somebody has bought number 13 and number 17 and combined them.
Jenelle: That’s incredible.
Ronni: As we were outside the house, the new owner drove out, and we said, stop. We need you to know that the energy from that house and the energy from this house is powerful.
Jenelle: What an incredible, incredible story. And I’m glad that we got to hear it here first; I think that is amazing. Ronni, so that listeners of this don’t think I am a crazy lady that just talked about cow manure and perm with no context, can we come back to that? Can you rescue me from this abyss that I’m in and put some context to those two?
Ronni: Okay, so, on the kibbutz, I worked in the refet, number one, in the cow shed. And actually, I loved it, because I was working with calves, otherwise I was working in the office. Everyone gets a roster of where they have to work every six weeks out of their everyday job, because their Saturday, Sabbath day, jobs that need to be filled. And working in the refet, in the cow shed, was a happy place for me. And I still think of cow manure and smell that and just think back to feeding those little babies and shovelling shit and throwing down hay. But while I—I’m gonna jump—so that is a special, special memory for me of the time on kibbutz. Cos they were challenging times, but there was also so many special times.
But I’ll jump to the perm, which changed my life, because I felt like a little mouse. I had dead straight hair, I never felt pretty, I never felt really very attractive. And went with my sister to a hairdresser in Haifa, off the kibbutz. And he was French, and he looked at me, and he said, we are going to do something different. And I just said, do it. And my sister said, do it. So, I’ll share very quickly; my sister came out with … like a Zebra. She had gold stripes in her dark brown hair, and she was hysterical. And I came out a new woman. My hair was fluffed and full, and it was like an injection of confidence, of new spirit, because even the hairdresser turned around, and kind of, very frenchly, went, madame, started making eyes at me. I walked back onto the kibbutz, and it was like, wow.
Jenelle: Look out world.
Ronni: Yeah, go girl.
Jenelle: That’s one hell of a perm. I tell you, I’ve had a few perms in my time, and I had nothing of the same kind of experience. I do have a series of very, very tragic photos for party events, but that’s about it.
Now, for you, being a successful event planner put you in a prime position to see how much food was being used and left behind and thrown out at every event. So, many event planners, food waste is just part of the job. You’d rather throw away food than have your guests leave hungry, and understandably so, I get that. When did you realise that there was a problem with food insecurity? Was it a slow realisation, was it an epiphany? And then, what made you go, I need to do something about this?
Ronni: Actually, I didn’t realise there was a … I mean, I knew there were people in need. I had no idea of the scale. I had a problem that needed to be solved. I was making and producing surplus food, so I needed to find a solution for my problem. And the food was perfectly good, the food was delicious, and at one particular event I had so much food left over, I … up until then, I was every other event planner throwing away my food cos it was easy, cos it was late at night, and you start early, and the day is long, and there’s stress, and all you wanna do is get out of there, clean up. And we threw our food away.
But this night, there was just too much food. So, I put it in a van, and knew of one place that possibly could use that food. I have no idea what would have happened if they said no, cos I would have had a van full of rotting food. But they didn’t say no. They graciously and happily took it all, and I thought, that was the best thing.
So, my events after that, I kind of, used to say to my clients, how would you feel if at the end of your event, any surplus food went to feed hungry people? So, they loved it, and I loved it, and made sure there was surplus food. And I did that for the next six years, until … while I … as I built OzHarvest, I continued working, because I’d never set up OzHarvest to support myself. It was to support my soul, and it became more and more and more fulfilling.
And I always say to anyone that I’m talking with, every day, we all have problems. Most of us turn round and say, I wish somebody would fix this. I had no idea why I was the person that chose to fix the problem of surplus food, but I was. I was. And that is the blessing that I have received, and the gift that I have received.
Jenelle: Tell me about the Hebrew word—and I hope I pronounce this correctly—tikkun olam.
Ronni: Tikkun olam. It’s a very powerful word. It’s really part of the ethos of the Jewish faith, and I was brought up in the Jewish faith. And what that does not mean I’m a religious observant Jew, but I am a ritualistic Jew and believe in the morals and the ethics and the ethos. And the ethos of tikkun olam means, repair the world, is the literal translation. But it means, the world is shattered. And or job is to be of service and find what it is you can do to fix and fill the cracks and be, in your daily life, able to give back. And it’s that principle that is a very powerful one. Again, it wasn’t that I realised that I was fulfilling it, but it’s a value and a deep, core driver to what I do.
Jenelle: So, some people seem to be born with that inherent sense of service, or the innate desire to do their bit and more. You seem to be one, Selma, you’ve talked about Selma, she seems to be one. But there are those that don’t have that. Given all the work that you’ve done, what have you learnt about igniting people to act on issues that they might not be directly impacted by? To live out this, whether you observe the Hebrew rituals, or the Jewish rituals, as you’ve said, but the incumbency upon people to do their part when they see an injustice. How have you ignited that in others?
Ronni: Well, it seems I have unwittingly. I certainly have never set out to do that. I do know that my book does that, which my story, therefore, does that, or again, a need to share that this is an unwitting side phenomenon that I’m in awe and wonder of every day. But I think that passion is very infectious. I believe that giving is a thousand times better than getting, and that is a message that I share every single day. And I just say, try it. Random acts of goodness, random acts of kindness, have the most extraordinary ripple effect, but I believe the biggest ripple effect is on the giver.
You know, I’d been in a position of getting, taking, needing, wanting. And thought that would make me happy, to get more, and more, and more, and more. Until I discovered that giving has made me happier that anything I’ve ever done. And that’s just the only message I can share. And it’s the only message I know how to share, because I live it, and I’ve experienced it. And I think that gives me that ability to say with conviction, go out and do it. Even if that was not your plan.
And that’s part of, very much part of, my purpose for leadership role now. I think if we haven’t got it, and not everybody has it, and I’m lucky to have it, we can learn it. And I can teach it because I live it. And so, I get very excited at the opportunity to coach and to talk with leaders and shift that mindset around the bigger purpose of why their companies exist.
Jenelle: You talked about, when you were with Selma, that you wanted to know what it felt like. What does it feel like? This thousands times better than getting; what does it feel like?
Ronni: Tell you what it feels like: it feels like every cell in my body is filled with gratitude. It means that I wake up in the morning happy with my first breath. Even when things are down, I can touch my bed, and know that I slept and woke up in a bed. And I can lift my eyes up and know that I have a roof over my head. I look out the window … and so, gratitude is the driving force for me, around knowing and being so grateful for being able to do what I do.
Jenelle: Beautiful. My son has a poster in his room that says obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off the goal. But you literally—I mean, it’s wonderful that you’ve had this idea, and with absolutely no disrespect intended here—you are not the first person to have a kind of Robin Hood idea of, you know, giving from the excess to the poor or the less wealthy. But there was—or the more needy, I should say.
But there was a very, very real obstacle around the liability that’s associated with, you know, if there are negative repercussions of a business giving food to others. So, you were at the forefront of igniting real change when it came to the Civil Liabilities Amendment act, which passed in New South Wales in 2005, and then the other states followed.
What made you think you could do something about that? Like, that’s beyond gratitude and trying to show what you can do. And what did you learn from that experience of actually affecting that kind of change? What did you learn about making that sort of change happen?
Ronni: I think the biggest thing that I learnt and knew, and actually want to reinforce all the time, I had an idea, I’ve shared that idea, and magnificent people have joined me to help me bring this to reality. So, when I go back to that, I knew what I needed, but I couldn’t do that by myself. So, I enlisted the best people to support me on that.
So, my ultimate lesson is collaboration, asking for help, vulnerability, admitting you can’t do everything, but that people around you are there to support you if you ask. And if you ask and the answer is no, then go to the next person, you know? Very early on in my journey—and I’m sure this is an urban myth, but it has stayed with me, and I love it, and have kind of shared it and keep it alive in me. I was told that Walt Disney went to 150 banks before a bank would invest in Disneyland.
Jenelle: Wow.
Ronni: So, you know what perseverance and resilience you have to have? And so, even if it’s not true …
Jenelle: It’s a good story.
Ronni: It’s just always made me think. Even if it was ten banks, or 20. When you are set on something. And so, to me, it was just so obvious. There was a problem, a hurdle; hurdles are to be got around, not to block the way. So, I love your son’s poster. An obstacle to me is just a challenge that I need to get around.
And so, I just went and asked the best law firm and said, how are we gonna do this? And sorry, but you’re not gonna get paid for this. So, cos, I don’t have any money. And so, I do believe in giving people the opportunity to be good. And they rise to it, they love it. And I think that’s hugely important. Instead of thinking people will say no, I think people will say yes, and I’m fascinated and blown away if they say no.
Jenelle: Wow, it’s a fantastic way to look at it. You know, something that’s evident in you, and it certainly smacks me in the face every time I’ve encountered you directly or from afar, is the extraordinary energy that you exude. And I know that we—at least in my world—often talk about time management, but I’m much more intrigued with energy management. How do you manage your energy? Which to me, at least, seems to be infinite.
Ronni: Actually, it feels a bit infinite to me, too. I do laugh, I can go out with people, we can spend a day at work, and I finish, and I’m like, okay, bring it on, what else are we gonna do? And they’re kind of ready to crawl … we laugh about it all the time. You know, I think, whether it was from my mother, or whether it was, you know, whether one day it’s just … and at some point, I’m sure it will, because I face my death every single day, because if I didn’t, you know, it encourages me to know how to live each and every day. How do I want to be today, not, how am I today. And so, I just think I’ve got an extraordinary amount. You know? Some people get dished out different talents and skills, I got a lot of energy.
Jenelle: We use words around resilience and tenacity and perseverance, but there’s an impatience in you as well that I feel. Impatience is … seems to spur you. And it’s not necessarily thought of as a virtue, I would say, impatience. Tell me about the good and the not so good aspects of impatience.
Ronni: Well, I think the good aspects of impatience—and I’m sure there are people around me who might say they’re bad ones, I’m a hundred percent sure—the good ones in me spur me. It’s like, right now, there are less than 3,000 days to halve food waste. Our country, we got our country, I got our country, to commit to halving food waste in line with the UN SDG goals by 2030. We did this in 2015, when we had kind of set a target to 2025; ten years seemed so long. I am impatient. I need this to happen, and we’ve now absolutely … I’m energised more to do this. We have less than 3,000 days.
So, to that end, it spurred us on to create a beautiful product: our ‘use it up’ tape. And I moved out of my study, I normally have it, but ‘use it up’ tape, you know, since we’ve discovered that 40 percent of food waste comes from households, I’m impatient to get every single citizen committed to halving their food waste.
Certainly, middle class, upper middle class, I understand we are a rich and abundant country, and there are third world countries where that might be less prevalent, but globally we waste a third of all food. And so, I am … so, that impatience drives solutions and results, and creates action. And so, in that respect, I think it’s quite useful. But it’s also very demanding. And you know, I walk into my office sometimes and say, I’ve got an idea, and my people duck and weave and jump under the table and say, oh no. What is she expecting us to do today? So, you know. [laughs]
Jenelle: How are we tracking against the goal of halving food waste by 2030? Where are we at as a nation?
Ronni: Well, the reality is we’re far. But I’m not deterred, because literally with this little tape of ours, which has been worked together on with Monash University and behavioural works and has got so much science behind it based on what we are willing to do. It’s been in the household of 45,000 households, and they have halved their food waste by 40 percent and their fresh fruit and veg by 50 percent.
And it’s given them two results; one, it’s saved their average household bill by about two and a half thousand dollars, and it’s made their garbage bin very small. So, there’s less going to landfill. So, that is incredibly encouraging. So, I just have to find a way to get 27 million Australian’s using our ‘use it up’ tape, or their own homemade version, their do-it-yourself version. You can get it free off our website, but if you want to make it, it’s a piece of sticky tape, you put it in the shelf in your fridge, you move everything that needs to be used up on that shelf. So, it’s about a visual reminder.
It’s a bit gamified, cos families can play with it. It encourages discussion, conversation, and in those families, those households, there’s been extraordinary success. And given it’s a global issue, I think it should go out into the world. The Netherlands have created their own, taken our prototype, Germany has just asked us for some. So, if we got everybody using it, we could achieve it.
Jenelle: That’s it. And also, we haven’t really talked about the angle of the impact to climate change, but obviously the less food we put into landfill, the less methane, which is a massive contributor.
Ronni: Yeah, food waste feeds climate change. And most people don’t know that. We could all be climate activists in our own homes. Not everybody can afford an electric vehicle, not everybody can afford solar on their roofs, but everybody could save money and stop wasting food, and save our planet at the same time.
Jenelle: That’s it. There’s literally no downside to this at all.
Ronni: Exactly.
Jenelle: Ronni, you’ve gone from delivering food in a single van to owning—how many vans do you own now?
Ronni: About 80, 85.
Jenelle: Okay, 85 vans across Australia. You’ve opened your free supermarket, down the road from where I live, actually. Subsequently, 50 other countries have sought to replicate that model. You’ve launched the CEO cookoff; I personally have been privileged to have a magic yellow apron and partake in that. You’ve achieved so much more, in fact, the OzHarvest impact report is well worth a read. It’s a wonderful read, actually.
You’ve always been upfront about the skills you have and the ones that you need help with, and you’ve talked about not being afraid to ask for help. But what were … what would be the, sort of, key takeaways that you learnt in the early days of OzHarvest that has allowed you to keep expanding beyond, beyond, beyond, where you’re ever at?
Ronni: Well, I think the interesting thing, one of the drivers when I think of it now, for coming up with new and innovative ideas, was this notion that funders in the very beginning … when the first funder after two years came and said, okay, I’m moving on somewhere else. First of all, I said, how could you move? You’re just watching our impact. Why wouldn’t you want to see what your money can keep doing? So, a lot of our funders have been with us for 19 years. Which has shifted their whole thinking.
I also realised that they do like shiny new things; now, I never, ever create a shiny new thing for the sake of a shiny new thing. It’s only if it’s going to be of greater impact, greater service, deliver on nourishing our country, which means it’s either going to stop food waste, it’s gonna feed people, or educate, or innovate within that framework. And so, that’s exciting, cos that overarching purpose to nourish our country means there’s a lot of ways I can nourish our country. So, I can keep doing special and gorgeous things.
Jenelle: You have managed to put OzHarvest, as we’ve said, not only all across Australia, but you’ve taken it internationally. It’s expanded into New Zealand, to Japan, to the UK, and …
Ronni: Vietnam, South Africa.
Jenelle: Vietnam. Well, that’s it, I was gonna say, what an amazing full circle moment. Even more so with your updated story with Alan and number 13 and 17 in South Africa. What’s next?
Ronni: Well, what’s very exciting is I made the decision that I wanted to ensure OzHarvest’s future. Succession has been on the list of so many … the lips of so many of our funders. And I’m young in spirit but my years are not as young as my head and heart feel. And so, I’m very excited that we’re bringing on a new CEO in March 2024.
Jenelle: I have to say, I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to step into those shoes, honestly.
Ronni: Well, we did a big, long search. And we found James Goth, who currently is the CEO of the Seven network, will take over as CEO. And I step aside into my new role, which is not new in what I do, but has the title of Visionary in Residence.
Jenelle: I love that title.
Ronni: I know. And I’m intending to cut down to three days a week, but I’ve been intending to cut down to three days a week for the last … many years. But that is what I’m planning to do. And I’m very excited for OzHarvest because he brings a set of skills and wisdom that, even if I had a more energised to do other things and feel after 20 years … it’s our 20th birthday, we’re gonna have a big year. So, you have to watch this space.
But yeah, that’s a very exciting move. I’ve had so many people say, that’s so brave and courageous; it didn’t feel brave and courageous. It feels like it’s the right thing to do for OzHarvest. And I’m excited that I think we will work so well together; as the founder, I’m not going anywhere. And he’s very excited about having me in that role, and I’m excited about having him take over the things that he will be better suited to do.
Jenelle: One final question for you: in your book, you pose the question, right at the front, ‘is this life of mine good for me, and is It doing good for others?’ How would you answer that today?
Ronni: It takes me … it takes me back to that question that I said to you. What do you want to be today, and that you face … every day, I face my mortality. Because we spend so much time thinking about birth, but we don’t spend enough time thinking about death. And so, I think every day, if I die today, will I have achieved something? Enough? And I think, I think what I’ve done, what I’ve been able to do, means I have added something of value. I think I’ll be happy with that.
Jenelle: I hope so, Ronni. You have been extraordinary in your impact to the world. And I don’t know whether it was a perm that brought out that shy little mouse to have this kind of impact on you. When you think about what Selma did for you in unleashing that, ‘I can do something’, you know? I can effect that change. You have done for thousands and thousands of people around the world and continue to do. You are the embodiment of tikkun olam, that you … whether it was an unwitting change agent.
But you show what it means to receive so much more from giving, rather than getting. It’s the thing that gives you that infinite amount of energy, it’s the force that inspires others to be wanting to do what you do in any small way. I love the assumption that people will want to do good, that people are good, and will lean on that. Your ability to enlist the best people through collaboration, through asking for help, for assuming it’s going to be a yes rather than no, your ability to channel the impatience; you absolutely are, and always have been the visionary in residence, and I cannot wait to watch this chapter unfold. Thank you so much, Ronni.
Ronni: Thank you so much. I have loved and enjoyed chatting with you.

Michael Rodrigues
24-hour Economy Commissioner

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change. The good, the bad and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: How do you knock out the hurdles of lockout only to run into the hurdles of lockdown? How do you lead a business called time-out when the whole world has been relegated to time-in? How do you change the collective mindset to shift from associating night time with alcohol and danger to heroing night-time as a place of safety and vibrancy? Today, I’m speaking to the first ever 24hour Economy Commissioner for New South Wales Michael Rodrigues, also known as Sydney’s first ‘Night Mayor’. But this isn’t a story just for the people of Sydney or New South Wales, this is a story about connecting with communities, revitalising cities, and shifting the collective mindset and zeitgeist and of course, it’s about leading change. Welcome to Season 3 of Change Happens. Conversations with influential leaders, on leading change and the lessons learned along the way. Welcome Michael, thanks for joining Change Happens.
Michael: Thank you very much for having me Jenelle.
Jenelle: Now, I read somewhere you being described as the ‘Fan Boy’ of cities. I don’t know how you feel about that mantra, or even whether you’ve heard it, but where did that love of cities come from?
Michael: I’m not sure where it came from, I know what may have built it over time as the excitement that the companies visiting them really and being part of it, so I am definitely one of many fan people these days (laughter) of cities around the world the world which have become also topical in context of the pandemic and everyone having a view on what does the future look like in what previously, or what I think will continue to be centres of culture learning and inspiration ah so, I don’t know, like I think one thing I have reflected on about that, sometimes in life and not necessarily respective of cities but sometimes people take things for granted, and I’m guilty of that in some regards. Definitely growing up in the south-west of Sydney and having an awe of Sydney City. Its beauty, majesty, its the size and scale of it and in the days I grew up, a slight trepidation about fitting in or navigating even and I can tell you when my dad very pleasantly bought me a Datsun Sunbird 1983 I think
Jenelle: Iconic, iconic!
Michael: It had so much play in the steering wheel Jenelle and I’d have drived this thing into the city and I just was, to keep going straight you kept doing it side to side and, you know, I’d be driving this thing on a Saturday night, just trying to keep the thing on the road frankly, so you know…
Jenelle: That sounds like me with a shopping trolley on a weekend. (laughter)
Michael: Those things have a mind of their own. So yeah, I think it’s an appreciation and respect for that comes from you know learning to discover and then being inspired by a place that you’ve grown up or places that you’ve visited.
Jenelle: I love it! So I want to stay on that for a minute, and get a sense of who you are, your cultural background. You said you grew up in Sydney’s south west, I think you grew up in Liverpool and went to school in Campbelltown if I’m correct about that. Maybe can you tell us a bit about your sort of formative years, what were they like?
Michael: The Liverpool that I was born into really was in the 70s and at the time it was, I guess, and still, although changing rapidly, lower socio-economic, would be the term and an area that had traditionally been, I guess, occupied by returned service people and then waves on immigration post war so… and this will come up in our podcast, not least of all, because of my background and yours, and the hard reality of it was that the White Australia Policy was still tailing off at that point and the consequence of it was, I wouldn’t describe it as a “tough” growing up, because I’m conscious that I had a house to live in and a family to love me and all those things, but yeah, you’re sort of singled out a bit and different and very conscious of it. I think that I at this time approached my engagement with the world around me by in those teen years in particular, learning to be invisible I think is how I phrased it in the past because it was a “safer way” of navigating agricultural high school, where you’re very much the minority students and the nature of growing up in that era, I think it has had a bit of an impact on the empathy that one feels towards people who don’t necessarily feel comfortable in a situation and I am not going to hold myself out as some sort of master of that but I do think about that a lot and then in terms of I guess professional roles that I’ve been in most recently, have really been in service of that, of trying to make Sydney cities for everyone. A lof of talk about visitors of course and visitors are all important, but how can it be a place that’s comfortable for visitors if it’s not comfortable for its residents.
Jenelle: You went on to become, I mean you said you’ve learnt how to become a bit invisible, but then you went on to become a construction lawyer. I would have imaged that there’s some amount of visibility in that. It’s a niche profession in the country in those days. Tell me about the “why” of that career choice for you.
Michael: It was definitely “hi vis” wasn’t there, strolling around in flouro on construction sights…
Jenelle: Definitely hi vis!
Michael: It’s come up in other environments so my dad’s used to me used to hearing me say it, but he was highly influential in my upbringing and I wouldn’t call it guidance but direction, as in, until I got the answer right ie the one that he was asking for, they were all unacceptable.
Jenelle: Try again (laughter)
Michael: So my brother having done Science and Law, when I was going through the University guide, we spotted this Engineering and Law degree and my dad when “ooh, Science and Law’s good, but Engineering and Law! Two professions for the price of one!
Jenelle: High value?
Michael: As it turns out, it was two professions for the price of two because you had to pay for them both, but yeah, it was so it was a bit, you know I was good in Maths and the like and not necessarily as weighted in school to Law, but Law is always seen as a good degree to do, especially those of us who have done them, coach everyone else into doing them so they can suffer as well. But then I just looked at it and went “oh Wow”. I worked out when I was registering for the degree, there’s only three people in my year that are doing it, out of all the law students and that gave me the clue that “hey this is going to be pretty unique” and then, where can I provide the most value, having done that and Construction Law Project Finance Law and those sorts of areas that I went into was really just playing to what I thought was a natural competitive advantage. I think that it was an element of working out where I could make an impact at that stage and having a lot of fun really… building construction projects for the Olympic Games was every 20year old’s dream.
Jenelle: That’s pretty cool. So speaking of having a lot of fun there, midway in your career you shifted base to the middle-east. Tell me about the catalyst for that decision. What drove that and what was that time like?
Michael: My poor bookkeeping. I’d be at Allens for three years, the Law firm, and I really had developed zest for life and everything that Sydney could offer and putting a lot of money into the pockets of hospitality by eating out every night of the week and everytime I’d max out one credit card another one would magically arrive…
Jenelle: Wow, I’ve never tried that code!
Michael: And it was three years of this and I was like oh, this can’t go on, so I was economic refugee and just moved to a tax free jurisdiction. No, a little bit of that, but the quest for international experience was the catalyst. In a bigger market you’re going to have international experience but you’re still part of a big outfit; thousands of lawyers. I wanted to work in a smaller area so I developed a greater awareness of the law because you can get really pigeon-holed really young here in terms of becoming a specialist and I developed quite a lot in a frontier market where no one was really sure what the law was if I was being honest. It’s a complicated legal system there due to historical facts and the intervention of different codes of law and it was a place that I was attracted to for a number of reasons.
Jenelle: And when you reflect on the experiences you had at that time, whether they were in work or in situ in the country, were there any experiences that you had that you would attribute to the kind of person you are today? Were they sort of seminal moments that have really played into the psyche of who you are or where you focus today?
Michael: I think the one that comes to mind was an uncomfortable experience in Dubai where I pulled up in my convertible Mercedes on the way to work and then a bus pulled up just beside me carrying labourers from the sub-continent and all of whom were my age. I remember locking eyes with this man and I don’t know what he was thinking of course, I don’t know what he is thinking, but in my head I put myself in his position and his day probably looked like going to working on a construction site in the high heat, risk of death and trying to provide for his family in a labour camp at night and the stories have reported now, and I thought what distinguishes him from me really, and other than being born into a privileged environment, which is why I contextualise any childhood “trauma” as minimal in comparison and I think that that just is as many people experience at some point, an appreciation of what you have and so these days when someone asks me how my COVID’s going, I’m like “well, amazingly well”. If I have to compare myself to people who’ve lost jobs or lost livelihoods or whatever else. So I think that that’s, it was a seminal moment and maybe that was insight into the duality of Dubai, in terms of… it’s really just one large labour camp where every strata only can dream of having the opportunity of money of the one above it even if you are a law firm partner earning a million pounds a year, that’s a fraction compared an Emirati might be etc and you’re not engaged with society in the way that… and I think maybe that’s it, there’s no real way of contributing it in a cultural sense or in a civic sense and that lead to a period of loneliness in Dubai where I just thought “oh this is” without judging of course like for me it was a whole lot of fun, don’t get me wrong, highly recommend it, but I wasn’t necessarily feeling whole.
Jenelle: It’s interesting as I reflect on you talking about sort of growing up in the south-west Sydney and feeling perhaps on the outer and trying to feel invisible there. Then you go across to the middle east and actually, you’re on the inner in the sense that you’re in the “haves” group, but still feeling not quite right; a sense of displacement and a sense of loneliness both ways, ingroup and outgroup; it’s an interesting duality to use yours word, yet in your own experience of being either side of an ingroup or outgroup,
Michael: There’s always another group as well, who is in that concentric circles or whatever you want to describe, because in that context I was an Australian Passport holder who looked like a labourer. So this came into play when of course when you’re going into nice bars and restaurants and you’re being stopped as a result of a policy, until you start speaking in your “strine”
Jenelle: Australian
Michael: Yeah, you’re Australian, you’re not allowed in. And so I think that that you know, it’s a good question; when do you actually feel at home and without pre-empting, I think that that is kind of… it sort of lead me along this path to wanting to feel like I live I am at home in the city and my kids can be at home in the city and then of course all of which is most true for people whose home it was. And now, we’re just trying to rush to have a better understanding of that and embrace it.
Jenelle: Let’s most to the media group you founded, which is TimeOut. You went onto lead that group for 15 plus years and with no disrespect, you had no prior experience in media when you took on that role. What were the principles behind that and why did you get involved. How did it go from idea to reality?
Michael: So, I’m pretty sure I’ve lost all following of my legal friends these days, so noone’s going to be offended by me saying that at that stage of your career; 5 or 6 years in there’s quite a crossroads for people, in law in particular. The best people can come up with is to go and open a café or a bar or a bookshop as an alternative career and what qualifies you to do that? Not much. And I remember when the TimeOut opportunity came up. I canvassed a few people…
Jenelle: How did it come up? How does that opportunity come up?
Michael: Well I was playing cards in Dubai.
Jenelle: Like all great stories start (laughter)
Michael: I just met someone that was working with TimeOut in Dubai over in social circles and with only the bravado the accompanies someone that is about to have a massive fall from grace, walked out to TimeOut’s offices and said “You know what you should do with the rights for Australia, is give them to me and my mate, we’ll do a great job for you.
Jenelle: OK
Michael: And an amusing anecdote was that at the end of my 20 minute presentation of why we should get the rights someone said, and my pitch was actually like TimeOut Global Brand, but actually you need Sydney; like we are such a good city. Reverce psychology some would call it. And the MD was just got a question “What target CPM are you looking at?” and I said “Very glad you asked”. But also “can you tell me what a CPM is?” (Laughter) Because I didn’t know anything about it and this would all play out very rapidly upon launch as it would turn out because we launched on the eve of the GFC, oh sorry, the same day the subrent mortgage collapse was essentially our birthdate and we were the child of an era that tells a story of rapidly evolving technologies and migration of audiences and how fast you have to run to try to keep up it if you want to monetise and maintain and build profitability into a business over 15 years so you can finally sell it and so the opportunity came up. I didn’t want to be the person that sat next to me at the dinner, going “oh, I had that opportunity once and I said no to it”. And as hard as that journey has been, by my own estimation and by I guess the estimation of those around me, whose counsel you trust, as for many people who take that risk the best decision you ever made as it became the biggest single growth opportunity of my career.
Jenelle: So did you have a fall from grace in that time? Other than not knowing what the CPM measure was, was there actually
Michael: Yeah, well it bottomed out in 2009, we launched in 2007. The company nearly when insolvent twice. I was all but exited from the company as part of the part and as part of the solution to new investors. I had to claw my way back in, build up revenues…
Jenelle: How did you do that? How did you claw your way back in and did you feel like you wanted to, or just had to?
Michael: I had to because… Here’s an interesting story. The founder of Fairfax, Mr Fairfax let’s call him lost a lot of money when he launched Fairfax in Australia but at the end of it he went as the story goes and repaid his investors back in the UK, every penny. And for me I brought family and friends into a very speculative venture which all made sense when you think back to 2006, when the markets were going bananas and it changed. And I had to take the view that there was nothing I would not give up while I could still impact the outcome. So when I got exited, it was, these things happen, it’s such a common founder story where you, in my case had a clash with private equity and you know, it’s just part of the game. It’s like OK well we need to sell the product onto new investors how do we explain it? Well the guy that didn’t know anything about publishing, he’s the problem, let’s get rid of him.
Jenelle: You’re telling me this story in a fairly matter of fact way, but what did it feel like, knowing that you had family and friends invested in this, knowing that you were being used, or at least as a scapegoat or solution to a problem or, how did that feel at that time to feel like “Ok, I’ve got to claw my way back in and fight? What was that like?”
Michael: You’re right to ask. Well it’s the hardest thing to go through. And it’s that Kipling poem that I won’t later, but it’s “if”. If you can see everything that you’re given, lost on a game of toss whatever the quote is, that’s when you’re a person and stoop to build a backup with broken tools. That’s the real measure of someone. And that’s what resilience is. And until you’ve been tested, how do you know how resilient you are. And like for me it’s partly as I age, and you associate more with serial entrepreneurs you can just measure the war stories and it’s very common and rarely know Jobs but the Jobs is an example. Exited from Apple, came back and the rest is now history. In my case, and we can get into it a little bit if you’d like. We’re really interesting point now around unconscious bias and seeing people and all of those things that I’m happy to say when you are trying to explain it to your niece aged 12 or 13, they’re like “what are you talking about?” Because it was on a different era. You can’t forget it, but we should learn from that and we should I think make sure that we do better. Yeah, it’s terribly leveling but you just become… I’d would like to think that I became a better person. That sounds really cliché, but any semblance of arrogance or misplaced confidence is maybe a better way of putting it and was taken out and you know, I was borrowing money from a friend in London to live and while I tried to get myself back into the company, and would ultimately go on and pay release rental part and building revenues as a sales person… very good at selling as it turns out and it sort of reset my life. The decision to start TimeOut was one thing, you go through that as your baptism and then come out of it and then build-sold company and then finally leave with titles of publisher of the year and publisher brand of the year with are nice acknowledgements but not necessarily any measure of you know they aren’t exactly that, they are an acknowledgement of something, I’m not saying they are definitive of anything. Be that as it may it’s the same characteristics and listening to Sally, your interview with Sally Capp, who, I don’t know personally, but is someone who I respect and follow and I think has a similar ethos I think when it comes to public service and listening and all these things that we talk about, but often talk about but necessarily do, what I’ve learnt about in public service is that if you can’t listen, you’re nowhere. And I think Sally really did a good job of articulating that to your listenership last episode.
Jenelle: Thanks for being a listener of the pod. Now while you were running TimeOut you also became the founding Chair of NTIA so the Night Time Industries Association, why did you establish that and what were you hoping to achieve with it?
Michael: Now I hope Sally’s listening to this podcast because that’s one of the best segways ever and I remember sitting in Melbourne in about 2016 and working with a very talented Artistic Director Jacob Boehme, but at the time he was directing YIRRAMBOI Festival First Nationals festival in Melbourne and I was talking to him about some concepts, I was trying to get away in Sydney and I just couldn’t do it. He was like “oh no, maybe you should do this, maybe you should speak to this person” and I had the emotion of wanting to move to Melbourne. And then I was like “oh no, I’m so proud of Sydney, how can Mike want to move to Melbourne?” And by that stage LockOut laws had sort of set in. Like to me, I didn’t love my city as I had at some point and then I thought, well you can move, or you can assess whether or not you can do something about it and make an impact. And by do something about it, that’s not pressing like on whichever social media channel, you’re kidding yourself if you think that you like something that you’ve done anything. That’s not doing anything. What have you really done when you press like? Is that ???3733 or have you gone and helped the person, have you contributed to a cause, have you taken part of you and invested it back in that problem that you’ve not liked and acknowledged?
Jenelle: So, but so if I think about that time with the lock out laws, highly emotive time for us, for many people from around the world. Sydney was seen as the city with its own bedtime, you know, so as you say, you could sort of pick the like button or dislike button, but what was the tipping point for you to decide that you wanted to shift from the presser of the like or dislike button, from frustrated observer of lockout laws to outspoken advocate for change, because essentially that’s what you were trying to do right, like you wanted to turn that around to fall back in love with Sydney and have everyone else do the same. What was that tipping point for you?
Michael: I love publishing as a business and I actually think it’s relevant to what my job is today as a 24-hour Economy Commissioner for reasons I can come to. So in publishing you work with editors and editors have a role to play around commentary and so in context we’d run a couple of issues on lockout laws and their impact, covers. We’ve written about it and I then started to engage my team; I’m like “hey our brand is all about going out”. If you can’t go out in your city, then we should have something to say about that. The response was, yeah well we have, we’ve done all these… either that hasn’t worked or we haven’t done enough. I feel, rightly or wrongly, and that’s what TimeOut is, it’s a tool to help you discover your city and be inspired by it. And so, in a way, compared to other businesses and there are line businesses, don’t get me wrong, but it was the villain to our hero, it was the enemy of our good, it was the battle that we should fight that if we didn’t, who was. And the answer to that was well no other publisher. Without being grandiose, our approach was, let’s get in and understand the issue and make a whole bunch of mistakes as we try how to positively impact something and that gave me an insight very quickly into some of the changes that need to happen in order to eventually see, it’s not just about lockout, it’s about a different narrative for Sydney. One that we now, you can hear soundbited and written about the press every week because we are now on our own journey towards a better vision for Sydney in my view. So I think it’s that thing of understanding if you are capable of having an impact, and if so, what is your duty to act. And for me there was a duty to act.
Jenelle: So as you said, if you’re capable of doing that at the time I recall and I know so many people will, it was an emotionally charged time with the one punch, you know the coward king hits, etc it was a highly emotive time, really important that the city was rallying around arguably a blunt instrument with the lockout laws, not just about that, but that was happening at the time, so how do you take a conversation on a macro level, that would have been quite an emotional loaded conversation and bring the nuance that’s required to that conversation. As you say it’s not just about lockout, but you were able to bring nuance and layers to that, how did you do that.
Michael: It’s one of those things that doesn’t necessarily happen in a linear manner, does it and I would always hope to acknowledge that there’s never one hero either, like it’s a team of people collectively working and this team, this cast is extensive. The bit that occurred to I guess the group that we talked about was that well is this a problem you can solve or not? And in that way, at that time, the language of the debate was very much characterised by police, alcohol, violence, health terminology, all that very emotive polarising language, which is great fodder for broadsheet media and was simplistic and obscured other issues like the demise of culture, city vibrancy and not just the economic impact of F&B not trading because it was far broader than that and it was recognising the ecology of going out and who had a stake in it and who needed to get active. So just some problem-solving analysis. And then I like to think I contributed something to it and perhaps the thing that I contributed was the story telling component and the legal bit which was if you can’t win on this debate, let’s go find another debate. And you’re never going to win on that language, and particularly if the core advocates are people with self interest in direct economic benefit from it. So night-time economy, city culture vibrancy, liveability is a much more complicated, much more nuanced discussion and it is a much harder discussion to have because you need to build alignment between stakeholders, who don’t, who see themselves largely as competitors when it comes to each of their artforms and entertainment offerings. So there’s sort of like a media branding aspect to this in a sense, a narrative piece. Find one language that you can move to. But then the other side was well how to unite people behind something and I think that this one may have been one of mine, it’s hard when you start seeing your own soundbites quoted back to in media, and then everyone’s a genius.
Jenelle: That sounds good
Michael: It was umm. So TimeOut right, like what it cares about is that you go out and have fun, doesn’t really care if that’s Ice cream, a walk on the beach, a bar, a music festival, theatre show, Hamilton, whatever… it just doesn’t want you at home for extended periods of time. So I’m really agnostic about what people do when they go out, I just care that they go out. And so I’ve basically said to that industry, I said “while you’re all arguing over whose customer it is, the couch is winning because Netflix and Uber aligned are offering a pretty competitive reason for people to stay in at home, particularly in context where the city is saying “it’s not safe, and you shouldn’t go out”. So it has a bedtime right? So like that became a unifying emblem in some ways of the campaign and I think stakeholder alignment, finding its first and second follower, all that kind of thinking is how you can build momentum around things, you know you’re winning when the politician gets up and says “it’s was my idea you know all along”. That’s the true measure of success.
Jenelle: Another measure of success was that the lockout laws have changed. What did that feel like when that was announced?
Michael: One shouldn’t under-estimate the importance of that, but it would not have been enough. Changing a law was not the only thing that was broken. And if you think it was, the opportunity cost of that decision is vast. What we said, or thought was that like anything, the reason Melbourne Victoria has done a great job on so many fronts is because they thought about, they said that’s where we want to be and we’re going to implement a strategy that is consistent with who we are and the people we represent and align everyone to it. Full Stop.
Jenelle: High intentionality around it.
Michael: Now as a state, that’s what New South Wales has not only done, but it’s gone one further. It’s said, we’re going to get everyone in a room together, across industry, councils, NSW Government, we’re going to work out what is the best way to take this forward. We’re going to pull together a strategy, we’re going to find some muppet, called Rodrigues to be the one that’s in charge of it and we’re going to get him and his team to help implement a government strategy that’s already got stakeholder alignment built into it, but not just for the benefit of venues who, once upon a time, had a close time earlier than they were hoping, but for the economic prosperity and the civic amenity of all. Like it’s a very different thing. The 24hour Economy Strategy for NSW is the only strategy of its kind in the country and has few direct comparators globally. And it comes because we learnt what happens when you really shut a city down and we thought we can’t do that again. What comes from that is “How do you stop it just swinging back to where it was before?” That’s the challenge of that situation and the bit that I’m there to try and oversee.
Jenelle: It’s interesting you know, because I think we’ve just jumped into the 24hr economy piece of it, but for me, when I think about the hurdles that you faced; we started with the GFC and we ran into the lockdown, the lockout laws, you jump the not insignificant hurdle of lockout laws and in the same period of time the world finds itself facing a pandemic and now we’re contending with lockdowns. And you are leading a company called TimeOut where the success measure as you quite rightly say is all about getting people out and suddenly we’re being relegated to time in. So I can’t imagine, did it feel like the metaphorical hurdles just coming? What next? What did you do that that time? Before we get into the 24hr economy piece, which I know is really related here, but I’m really interested in what that was like?
Michael: It’s all a bit of… it’s in that “the lost time of the pandemic”, isn’t it. Noone knows what year it was and how the thing went down but the lockout was a cold, this is pneumonia now, there’s a big difference. And by that stage I had industry bodies set up and what not so playing a dual role across night-time industries and time out you know went hard into the mission of the business, which was not only to inspire people to go out, but in circumstances where the whole ecosystem was being totally devastated, how could we preserve the infrastructure of the city and also and importantly the connection to the businesses that comprise that emotion, that feeling. Not only the revenue component; very important, so please buy from these people whatever, but also the connection between the hosts of the city, the people that put on the show, give you the fun vibes and their audience. And so the pivot as people love to decide was a global move by TimeOut and so I seldom, not never, seldom claimed credit where it wasn’t mine, but that was yeah the CEO, Julio Bruno at the time said we need to, it helped being part of a global business because as you would know, you’ve got data coming in from multiple sectors so you don’t stick your head in the sand and go “she’ll be right”. So that was a decision, but then I think not just about in that time the success of because ultimately that’s would lead to the awards and whatever else right. But because we were our best selves and we delivered against our brand promise and our brand reason for existence at that moment. The other side of it from a management perspective is the bit about the real reason you’re going to do that is if you’re an effective leader and you have, as I think others did, as was happening, you’ve got senior managers coming in and saying “hey we will take a pay cut before you’re going to them, because the moment that happens you know you’ve built the right organisation. That is what a good organisation looks like and you can’t get that overnight, you only get it for years of truly understanding what it means to lead people and that leaders as Simon Sinek says you could say eat last.
Jenelle: You’ve talked about, I was determined not to call you the “Night Mayor” because it sounds like nightmare if I say it fast, so I’m just going to go with the 24hr
Michael: That’s what my wife favourite message is! (laughter)
Jenelle: It was like how am I going to avoid saying nightmare. So the 24hr Economy Commissioner, tell me, it’s an exciting strategy, and we’ll talk about that in a second, but what is your night-time dream for Sydney?
Michael: This is one I wrestle over and it was asked of me a few years ago when Soapbox Mike as he was then known, looking for opportunities to get up on stages and just rant, and often did. So someone said “ok Michael, what’s your vision for Sydney?” And my answer’s I think still, as I said then, largely unchanged is I think that my dream is that we can have a dream that people can contribute to that dream and that that is only possible if you have equity of access to be able to do that and I like the work dream because it relates to the longest history of this country and this is really going to sound airy-fairy for some of your listeners, but I had the privilege of being at an event called “Fabrics of Multicultural Australia: where people of different backgrounds got up and as part of a fashion show and I’m talking from Afghani designers to Mauri to Indigenous to Indian and I had to an impromptu speech and it was at the National Maritime Museum which is really about Australia’s migratory past and I’d been inspired the night before by a First Nations speaker who talked about the water patterns from the different tribes of the Aura along the coast and into the harbour. And the metaphor of water being an intermingling of different stories is where I land on this and that surely is our greatest opportunity and it’s relevant to everybody because everyone’s come across the water and everyone has a story and that is true of our indigenous people, it’s true of our colonial forebears and it’s true of us recently arriveds. And so the 24hour economy strategy Mike, whatever you want to call it, has in publishing terms, I remain a publisher because the publisher doesn’t side the story. The publisher has to go out and find and enable the storytellers and that’s what I hope to do in this role. So when asked by those that want an easy answer to this, I’m like “Well, I’m not going to give you an easy answer. It’s not for me to decide what should go where and who should do what, it’s for local communities engaging with each other and their industry and in their area to come to an agreement about what their area means to them and how they want to express that story. And the people who do it well will have happier communities and people will want to visit them. That’s the thinking and because that makes it exciting. Like our competition to get people out of the house it to make our city as vibrant and multi-dimensional as Google are not trying to own Netflix, Binge, Stan to make it easier for you. I want you to walk out of the house and go “What are we going to do now?” you know and in a city like Sydney, it is one of few cities in the world, it’s 7th in terms of multicultural makeup I think. Combine that with our topography and our indigenous past, we have the ingredients that I think are without peer. I defy anyone to challenge me on that (laughter), but I think the state wants me thinking that way and I generally believe it so it’s not an ask.
Jenelle: So let me understand a bit more about this story telling through city. Where are cities that tell great stories, how does a city tell a great story and how do we coalesce our city or our councils and communities within city to agree on the story that they want to showcase.
Michael: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Look the collective and evolving answer and a historian I’m not, but at different times of history you will find no doubt that kingdoms have risen and fallen, reputations of cities will follow suit. I think that’s a really big question, I think that I can only answer it from the perspective my contribution to it, which is to enable and give access to people to better do that piece of story-telling. Does that happen everywhere? Probably not, even the cities that are the most highly regarded. And as we approach the challenges of climate, as we approach the challenges of actually being equal, that measure will change the reputation of cities. Although while we may have present day regard for City X, in 20 years will we have the same regard for it? Well only if these things remain true, will they remain true, will they evolve into. So yeah, that’s the deeper answer, the shorter answer is “have a good brand marketing strategy and rig the indices.
Jenelle: Well you use the word evolve so I’m going to going to stay on that one for a second, because I read the 24hour economy strategy, you would be very proud of me. And right up front, the 24hour vision is set out and what I loved was, I loved that piece because it personifies the city and there’s a line in there that said “True cities of the world never stop. They surprise and evolve. They are not just open to change, they embrace it”. So I’m keen to understand from you, what are the kinds of changes that you see that our city needs to embrace?
Michael: I mean in my capacity as 24hour commission, its pretty well laid out in that strategy, and it speak to principles of diversity, placemaking, pillars, there’s boxes, there’s governance committees, there’s a whole bunch of things there, but they are truly evolving and they need to, the story of that city needs to evolve with the people that that city is comprised of. In light of its history. And governments main role is creating and enabling an environment for that to happen. Dismantling of unnecessary regulation that impedes that I’m questioning and playing a role in, for example deciding that why would you not use outdoors since we love them, you could have el-fresco dining and in Sydney in times when use of the motor vehicle is now being changing while active transport is on the rise. So there’s a whole bunch of impacts that can be made as we better calibrate consumer expectation and future audiences to what the city is willing to offer and so in terms of the work that I think a lot about, which is embedded in the strategy, if not necessarily articulated, is “what does the future of going out look like”, another way of saying that is “what is the future of culture” in our city and so my reference point, as much as I need be conscious of and embrace our past and our history and our legacy but how do the story-tellers, the goal routerers, the experience seekers that are 15 and under, how will they make their contribution, what do they need. Because the Government strategy will have long lasting impact so how can I better-enable engagement for all. I’ll give you a couple of tangible examples, because I’ve been speaking in riddles for half of this, but an example of alcohol consumption. Declining per capita, fast growh of non-alcoholic beverages category and so in terms of product choice, health and well-being, those types of market forces will shape the future product. The Government’s role is to get in there and recognise that and then say well does the current regulatory regime, does it help or hinder and is industry matching and keeping up with consumer change and if not, how do we help them do that. Because that’s what the advantage of having a strategy is. So to get to those platitudes that reel off the tongue nicely diverse, safe, vibrant, this and this, etcetera, the Government’s role is really help create the environment for that to happen and then pull whatever levers it has. So investing in things is currently the case around many of our programs which is CBDs revitalisation and other things and/or impacting regulation and/or educating people.
Jenelle: Because as I think about you talked about what’s not a small question here, but what is the future culture of the city going to look like. Big question to be framing and shaping. It does imply or have inherent within that, the need to change a collective mindset from associating night-time with alcohol and danger and to seeing night-time as a place of vibrancy and safety and community so is it a combination of some of those tactical kind of legal hurdles along with a vision and along with story telling that is going to be really the impetus for making that kind of I think not insignificant collective mindset shift.
Michael: And to add to that sort of line of enquiry, the impact of the pandemic in all of it if you accept that pandemics tend to shape and accelerate things. For example, saying goodbye the top-hat and tails. These are the things that follow pandemics. And it is in that direction for sure. And I think the opportunity is to see the world afresh while everything is being questioned and understand Government’s changing role now in how to most positively impact those outcomes. If you take a really simplistic view “let’s do these five things and she’ll be right”, get rid of noise complaints, like repeel the lockout law, cut red tape, everybody loves that one, but more deeply and they are all really important by the way, don’t let me be too glib about them. Planning reform, in future use of industrial spaces, a whole bunch of things that are relevant to the future use of the city. The kind of deeper questions, how does the person I don’t know exist yet love and are proud of their city. That’s the kind of things where the pandemic makes everyone pause for thought, the businesses that can kind of positively shape the discussion, working proactively with governance, one of the best things that’s come out of the pandemic is the ability for Government to be engaged in conversations like this and many others, trying to work out how to better serve the public and adapt and use the crisis as a growth opportunity and that’s bringing the 24hour economy back I believe, I’m really privileged to overseeing that and in the context of investment NSW, which is the wider Government economic development strategy, now Department of Enterprise, Innovation and Trade. And that’s ‘seizing the moment’ and looking out for both citizen amenity and for economic prosperity in the future.
Jenelle: And Mike, you’ve talked about the diversity of the city, an inclusive city, you’ve talked about access, so we’re talking about the democratisation of access for everybody. What is that actually look like. I’m still sort of, if you think about you’ve felt what it’s like to be part of the “have nots” or not be part of the have nots and see what they’ve been like, so what should it feel like to have access democratised in our city?
Michael: The shorthand on this is the rise of the Western suburbs, Parramatta, a city in the West and then the third city also kind of speaks of greater degree of access, 15-minute etcetera etcetera and there is a lot of thinking in that space and I’m a supporter of it. I can only give you my lived experience Jenelle of what it means to me in-person and it is the engagement and the generosity of people who don’t have and therefore appreciate and leap at opportunity once they are given it. And I think these are the harder conversations because the impact of the pandemic on how we think about life and how where we live and how we value time and all of these things, play out in our city centres at the moment because they are for some time not as well populated, not as well frequented and as we come back out of the pandemic, what does that look like? The natural people moment away from centralisation also is partly in line with 24hour economy strategy which says we should have great neighbourhoods all over the place as opposed to everyone clustering in one spot and when you have great neighbourhoods like we do all across Sydney, these become platforms or opportunities and when it gets to story-telling, what makes a great story? It’s when it’s unique and compelling. And we’re not talking spaghetti Western style episodes now, we’re talking about the real story of Campbelltown and Darwell, it’s this sort of deep connection and we have such a stronger sense of place I think now and most of the metrics indicate it. And so in terms of the connectedness, how does it manifest, well it’s also matching the opportunities that then should follow that so that everyone can have access to economic, professional learning whichever metric you want to look. It’s a lot of people working on this, affordability of housing, all these sorts of things have a massive impact on it, but the thing about culture and how you feel and creativity all of these things are, you still have a contribution irrespective of whether you have a very nice in the inner West as I do, or you are live where my parents live or in other parts, you know, everyone has access to their story. So and now the question is, can I in my role as publisher or 24hour Economy Commissioner, can I make sure everyone gets a chance to tell theirs.
Jenelle: Where do you store inspiration from around the world. I mean I know that there is a Night Mayor model in Europe, in the Americas, are there cities that you would point to and say, we don’t have to figure this all out, we’ve got excellent reference points here to be drawing inspiration and
Michael: Yeah, for sure. Nitty gritty wise, we’re 2.0 or 3.0. MSDOS was there some time back and the cities that have gone before; London strategy, New York and these are the ones that people reel off, Berlin, anywhere where there is a Night Mayor, MAYOR
Jenelle: I know, it’s tough isn’t, we have to clarify this (laughter)
Michael: And so there’s a growing movement around night time economy, 24 hour economy, because ultimately it’s because of the role that home entertainment plays in a competitive sense to the out economy, that’s what’s fundamentally driving that trend. The market share that Amazon and Netflix and UberEasts have versus the proprietors of “fun parks” for example. So there’s reference points globally and it comes up all the time and it goes back to the Sally Capp thing. One of the core markets for us to look at is Melbourne and I’m really happy to say it, firstly because I love Melbourne as a city, I love visiting it and they have got a lot right and the reality is if you understand the economics of Australia, as we’re seeing now, you have Victoria and NSW in a friendly “rivalry” but working cooperatively, it’s better than us working us being against each other. Similarly audience size, time zone, a whole bunch of things that make it a pretty good thing to look at. So there’s comparatives across the world that you draw inspiration of, but for some of the listeners, they’re like going what’s he talking about? Like London, New York, they’re the best cities of the world. The difference is number one, Finance Markets, two climate, like firstly. Right, so do we think that people are genuinely going to fly all across the world to go into a basement bar in Sydney? Is that their reason for travel? Or do you think they want a roof-top bar? I’ve seen the harbour, you’ve seen the harbour, where would you rather be if you’re coming to Sydney? So reference point for us, should include places like Mexico, Rio in terms of how we think about our story telling, because our waterways are undersold, in terms of the communities, all those sorts of things. We have this chip on our shoulder about competing or being like London or New York, but lousy weather
Jenelle: We have afford to have a little more swagger in city, that’s for sure.
Michael: Indeed. Indeed.
Jenelle: So according to the 24hour Economy Strategy, many people want to have input into shaping our night-time economy, I think was something like 57% said “but they didn’t know how to contribute”. I love that you said earlier that people can contribute to the dream. So what would you say to people about how they can contribute in shaping the city?
Michael: And this goes back to the fundamental question and I think a lof of what you’ve been asking, it’s about the difference between theoretically having access and then being helped to have access, so there’s a job for me to do and the work I’m doing to make that product, that engagement more accessible. So we can talk about that, but I think that and leaving aside my all the other people bit annoyed now about what they’ve like and what they haven’t liked and thought that they’ve helped, but there is that thing of “what are you actually achieving? What are you actually contributing?” Like there’s a distinction, we often think a thumbprint on something means something, well question. I think that the most powerful thing is consumer spending. Where do you spend your money? And why? And if you wanna have a positive impact and you have cash and you’ve got discretion on where to spend it, think about what you’re supporting and what you’re not and why are you supporting it and why are you not. That’s the harder question, so now anyone whose anyone that we haven’t lost as a listenener is thinking “what does he mean”, well think about where your dollar goes when you make a decision on supporting a local business versus something that comes to you that’s got three intermediaries behind it. It may be easy. Easy is the enemy of, convenience is the enemy of sustainability, right, we understand that. That’s the thing that we have to wrestle with and I think that consumer spending is really increasing and happily becoming more conscious at the younger demographic than perhaps others when you have the opportunity and so, you want to support arts and culture, which artist do you care about. That’s the question! If you really care and genuinely community then should not we be supporting our artists in the community. And these are things that when after the first glass of wine and people start questioning by people like me at the dinner table, because “yeah, here’s how you can make a difference, are you willing to do it now?” is the question.
Jenelle: So I’m going to change tack now here for a moment here Michael, as we draw to the end of the conversation here, just for the fast 3 questions for you. Don’t deliberate too much, just what is your quick answer to it. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?
Michael: I have just completed, I’m going to throw that in there Leviathan, which is John Birmingham’s unauthorised biography of Sydney, written in 1999. Greater insight into historical lense on Sydney’s formative years since colonisation and the power structures that ensue. And I am part way, not yet there on completing Terry Janke’s True Tracks which is guiding principles for respecting indigenous IP.
Jenelle: Very good! Sounds like very powerful reads there! Now speaking of powerful… what’s your superpower? Now that’s additive to the world, or it could be a useless party trick.
Michael: (Laughs) I’ve been told that my superpower is to, I’ve got the power of speaking to people and making them believe something. Now I don’t…
Jenelle: I just believed everything you said so, I’m hoping it’s true.
Michael: I’ll tell you as an aside, we did this exercise at TimeOut when the pandemic hit and you’ve got a choice right, a lot of people downsized or whatever, I was like, well hang on a second… I value my staff and this do more with less thing? Whatever. It’s like do more with what you’ve got. Well what have we got is the question so we made everyone rate everyone in the business on what superpower they had?
Jenelle: Oh right!
Michael: So it wasn’t up to me to say what superpower and our Editorial Director was like, Mike you can just make people believe stuff (laughter) and so I don’t know, you be the judge.
Jenelle: Let’s go with Vision Setting, not VSing, hey? (laughter). Now if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be?
Michael: So this one I did give some thought to because I can you know, site some famous ones, but the one that I come back to is “Half Respect The Dress Code”.
Jenelle: “Half respect” OK. Tell me a bit about that
Michael: It doesn’t mean that you should underdress by the way, it’s just fully comply with it. Yeah.
Jenelle: Don’t be a slave to it? A nod to it, but don’t over service it.
Michael: Typically you’d find me either entirely overdressed or entirely underdressed. But either way, I’m using what I’m wearing partly to help me communicate and engage with people and shift potentially what they may think on issues that are important to me.
Jenelle. I like that. I like that a lot. Michael, hey thanks for your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation and it’s incredibly topical to come back into this new year with this conversation. I can see why they called you the fan boy of cities. I’ve enjoyed hearing your stories of growing up, I can hear themes of identity and acceptance and belonging that permeate what you do today. Thank you for your candor on the harder times. I think you know your line around the villain to our hero, you’ve had many villains to the hero of the city. You’ve had the GFC, you’ve had the lockouts, you’ve had the lockdowns, but building back up with broken tools is something that you have obviously shown. I can see the power of story-telling is going to be even more strong through our cities. I think your challenge for us all to contribute to the dream is an important one. I think it’s ours to make this be an intentional and conscious rebuilding of our city and I know I am personally really excited about reimagining and reengaging with our city and I hope everyone else feels the same and I would say this isn’t just a story of Sydney or it’s not a story of NSW, it’s around engaging with communities, creating vibrancy and community. So thank you so much for your time Michael, I really appreciate it.
Michael: Thanks very much Jenelle, thanks for having me.
Jenelle: Michael, if we think about, I mean, we’ve all been relegated to the couch for quite some time and have grown very comfortable with Netflix and Uber and what not, we’re now trying to talk about re-engaging in cities, what do you think that means for the collective psyche and the social conscience of us as we work to re-engage in our city?
Michael: Yeah, it’s something I do think about a lot and it’s at least a two-part answer, or there’s at least two main players in play there. The first, the consumer and the second is the business that wants to serve them. How’s the relationship changed? How’s the product changed? What’s the offer? And I think it’s a, if you think about labour market shortages, supply chain interruption, those types of things, then what you very quickly start thinking about is at scale, like at scale, so think not just me, you, but 8 million people, how do you potentially recalibrating the overall offer of what “out” is versus the now seemingly easy accessible offering of the home, so and you know, think about it, don’t think about going out, just think about any category play, and/or product differentiation and which way is the consumer going to decide at any given time and so how do you remove the barriers to going out? What role does technology play in that? What price? What people are getting for the overall experience? Whose control is the experience in? If you look at older demographics and I put myself in that category, very happy to be told what to do, have a semblance of choice, I’ve just chosen the most expensive one on the list etcetera, whereas in terms of future generations and on demand, who are more used to on demand and being in control of an experience or navigating a night out or a day out, how does that play and these are sort of like the capacity or the industry discussions that are already happening and my job really is to try to you know and I think that we have a shot at actually in NSW in light of having a strategy is to really work with challenge, and in inspire conversations in industry which is partly why we are in the process of preparing a report in the future of Sydney’s CBD really which asks this question “If you’re not going to the city to work, why would you go out to have fun? And what it does is say well, like people will go back to work, but if the businesses who are previously dependent on that as their main source of customer base, how would they change their product to be a genuine attractor and what conversations does that lead to. So it’s not a straight-forward answer, but it’s consumer choice on one side, but business and you know, it is the good thing of a free market, that at some point the customer will decide, yeah.
The Change Happens podcast. From EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
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Licia Heath
Chief Executive Officer, Women for Election Australia

Intro: Hi I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 3 of Change Happens. Conversations within influential leaders on leading change and the lessons learned along the way.
Jenelle: Today’s podcast is with Licia Heath. Licia is the CEO of a non-partisan, not-for-profit organisation called Women for Election. It’s an organisation that is all about equipping women to campaign for election increasing the number of women in public office at local, state and federal levels.
Now Licia’s story is interesting on a range of levels. You see Licia took on this role as CEO after she left her 19 year highly successful career in finance and asset management industry in London and Australia and after she helped establish and become a shareholder of a $5 billion asset under management Australian based business called Ironbark Asset Management. She also took on that role after she ran for public office herself. Now she wasn’t successful in securing the seat but as Licia will tell you that didn’t mean she wasn’t successful, nor did it mean that she didn’t love the experience of it. In fact one of the messages that really stood out to me when I spoke to Licia was how we need to broaden our views of success. Licia has launched a campaign called ‘Power Like You’ve Never Seen’ and I have to say those are words I’m all about paying attention to. Licia talks about the need to rebrand the way we think about power.
She also talks about there being 3 reasons for why people go into politics. The 3 P’s, they’re:

Political
Passionate, or
Pissed off

Now whatever the motivation Licia is certainly someone who makes no secret of being on a mission to make change happen. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Hi Licia, thanks so much for joining me today.
Licia: Hi Jenelle, thank you for having me.
Jenelle: Look I recognise it is a particularly busy period of time for you. How are you going?
Licia: Oh look great. My stamina is good. Its peak election! I call it peak election. South Australian state election on Saturday. Federal election coming up any moment so it’s exciting.
Jenelle: It is all happening. Now you have had a fascinating career to date. I understand you studied hydrologic engineering, you had an almost 20 year career in finance and asset management, you ran for public office in 2018, now you are leading a purpose led not-for-profit Women for Election. Now I recognise in that one sentence I’ve put every kind of spoiler alert out there on your background but I wonder if you not withstanding that can take a step back maybe paint the picture for me a little bit more. Just put a bit more colour on that background that you’ve had and maybe those earlier years in your career.
Licia: Oh look I’ve had a very fortunate career. Some of it has been very strategic and some of it has been more accidental. I love the sciences. Never ended up working in the sciences. Fell into finance in some ways after travelling overseas on a working holiday visa and found myself destitute in London with a terrible Aussie dollar to Sterling transfer and needed a job post haste and that’s how I fell into finance.

Licia: Yes, 19 years in that industry which was wonderful. Taught me a lot. Got fantastic networks as a consequence but found myself increasingly agitated sitting at my desk at the end of my financial services career wondering how I could be better using my skillset more ultra-realistically and there was a pretty fast paced couple of years to where I am now.
Jenelle: Well let’s just stay there for a minute. What were the things that were agitating you?
Licia: It was mostly that I was extremely frustrated about two things. Firstly, we seem to be in a total policy malaise in Australia. Policies of any worth are not being implemented and I don’t think that has largely changed. Secondly, just the inconsistency about how our Australian politicians were behaving or holding themselves and how nothing was enforced in their workforce knowing full well the differences that you and I and probably everyone else listening to this podcast had to live up and expectations of conduct and that total lack of alignment of interest was killing me.
Jenelle: Me too and there are lots of us that have felt that frustration over the years in different periods of time, maybe not even on the political front. That sort of mounting frustration. We’ll often have dinner time conversations about that but what tips you over, from being that kind of frustrated person to going you know what ‘I’m going to do something’. ‘I’m going to run for it myself’. It feels like a massive leap from being agitated and frustrated to going ‘I’m going to throw my hat in the ring’.
What was it for you that became your tipping point?
Licia: Well there was an incident that keeps coming back to mind for me. We were getting constant economic updates. We’ve gone through the GFC now investment managers and economists that are giving us insights into how Australia was faring, how the globe was faring. I had an earworm that had started about ‘well these numbers’ – how GDP is going, where inflation is sitting. Increasingly that was translating to more homeless that I was seeing. I was walking from the train station to my office or more accurately those numbers were never referring to changes I was seeing on the ground. That was certainly.. once that had ticked off in my head, that was something I couldn’t look away from.
Secondly, there was a particular event. We were out having a wonderful event on a yacht, on the harbour. We were socialising with clients. It was a client event. There was a big group I was standing with at the time. We were talking about productivity review and specifically a tax review that had been floated politically and what that would look like in terms of stamp duty changes or capital gains changes. The group I was standing in did say “Have you seen the plans for stamp duty changes in terms of investment properties?” We really have to make sure that doesn’t get up. It was a real pinprick moment for me because I knew how wealthy these individuals were and I knew how many properties they had and that was just such an opportunity hoarding statement that for me was such an important review that needed to happen and needed to be implemented changes to the status quo. Once I started that notion of ‘Jenelle I might be part of the problem – not part of the solution’ than one thing led to another.
Jenelle: Have you always had that level of social conscious about you? Is that something that is a continued thread in your life? Or did you feel something – you called it the ‘pinprick’ moment but the moment where it just kind of hit you at once? Or has it been a common thread if you think back on your life?
Licia: I think it has been a common thread that I very conveniently pushed down deep for a couple of decades. It was there – then it was quite inconvenient for a period..
Jenelle: An inconvenient social conscious?
Licia: Yep if I’m being completely candid.
Jenelle: Why was it inconvenient for you?
Licia: Because I was..
Jenelle: You had to confront a few things?
Licia: Yeh I was on the train Jenelle. I was doing all the right things. I was so clever. I had such a successful career. Had nothing to do with my privilege or anything like that. It was always bubbling - push it down. Bubbling – push it down. Bubbling – push it down and then it just bubbled and I couldn’t push it down anymore.
Jenelle: Wow. You’ve given into your social conscious. This is bubbling up. I’ve got to do something about it. I’m going to run for an election here. What happened? Tell me what happened from that moment.
Licia: I chose to take a sabbatical. I knew I wanted to something else as a career but I didn’t know what that was. I spoke to my husband. He said “Yes you should take a few months”. I don’t think he knew it was going to be a year and neither did I to be frank but figure it out. I was trying to figure it out the next step while I was working and it became apparent I couldn’t do that. So I took some time and I set about trying to work out – look what was agitating me was the state of Australian politics. I wanted to work out how to improve that. I set myself that task as my job for the following months. I set up my home office. I had a whiteboard. I started meeting with all and sundry in the political field.
Jenelle: So I love that unofficially appointed yourself the solver of the political environment for Australia and then you’d pick up the phone and call people and say “hello”? What does it look like to try to solve this and whiteboard this? How did you get those meetings? How did you position why you were doing something in this space?
Licia: Look I started attending a lot of things that I’d never attended before I was attending. Public service conferences. I part took in the mentor walks of Bobbi Mahlab and starting increasing my networks about meeting with ex-politicians, ex-staffers, current politicians. I attended a lot of the thinktank events. I would say 95% of people said “Yes”. They were very giving of their time and it just helped form my view about “Ok we understand the policy that needs to be implemented in Australia”. We do have that knowledge. We do have the research. Extraordinarily complex and astute research instead but what we have is an implementation problem. We have an execution problem in Australian politics. So why is that? Eventually I got to the spot where I said “Well it’s because of the individuals that we have in our parliaments”.
I came across Women for Election during that sabbatical year and I was an attendee at their first ever conference in that year. It obviously lit something in me because I was on the Board a few months later and helping them for their strategy as a not-for-profit.
Jenelle: At the risk of putting another spoiler alert out there. You didn’t win the seat that you went for. It was the highest profile by-election with that. Malcolm Turnbull was coming out of the Wentworth seat. Kerryn Phelps was the one who successfully secured the seat. What was the campaign experience like for you. What was it like for you to not win the seat? Tell me about the experience and what you took away from it.
Licia: Yeh look the experience of throwing my hat in the ring was one of the most positive experiences of my life. It genuinely was. That was the exact opposite of what everybody told me it would be. That stuck with me. I think because I’d partaken in those Women for Election events before that, there was a couple of things that kept resonating through my head through that training and one was:
‘You’ll never feel ready’. ‘You’ll never feel ready to step forward but step forward anyway’.
Licia: The other one was:
‘Timing is everything’.
So my ability to create some change in that seat because of the disruption that had just happened was so much higher than if I had just chosen to run in a standard general election where the incumbent was the Prime Minister. The experience was so positive and you are exactly correct I did not win but I did change the conversation during that
by-election and the ultimate winner adopted my policies and that is a win. That is still a measure of success. That’s something we discuss with the women who do our courses all the time.
There is lots of measures of success when you run for office. It’s not just about getting elected.
Jenelle: That’s such a powerful set of takeaways and I love the definition of success or the multiple definitions of success and if you were able to influence the outcomes, the policies, the positions and that’s what you throw your hat in the ring for anyway, that is most definitely a win.
What did you learn about yourself during that time?
Licia: I understood my courage that I had more courage than I had necessarily permitted myself to think before. Stamina – again as well. Now as a by-election that’s six weeks. Anybody can do six weeks. Anybody. But you’re under intense scrutiny and I flourished in that. I didn’t shrink in that. The other thing that I understood was so many women stopped me during that campaign and they just said “Keep going”. “I’m watching”. “You seem just like me.” “Can I buy you a coffee at the end of the all of this?” “Cause I’d like to do the same thing one day and I have no idea how to get started”. That’s where the notion of going back to Women for Election and saying “Look we’re playing down here”. “We could be playing up here”. “Let me be the inaugural CEO and let me take it there.” Because the demand was there for what we were doing.
Jenelle: I was just going to ask you then how did you go from being someone who was running for the seat to then moving on to become of the CEO of Women for Election. I guess was that it? Reflecting on the feedback that you’d been receiving along the way. Is that how you then moved into that role?
Licia: Look it was certainly reflecting on it. Literally it was scores of women and if you believe the different tropes that we get fed at different times well women aren’t really interested in politics dah dah dah.. It wasn’t true in that campaign and it has not been true since as the increase in our numbers of the number of women that come and get trained by us as shown as well. I think that’s an important takeaway as is the campaign that we released a month ago.
Jenelle: The campaign is ‘Power Like We’ve Never Seen’ and I love those words. I think they are really interesting words. It’s all about calling on women to rethink how they define power.
Licia: Yep.
Jenelle: Talk to me about that. How do you think we currently perceive power and how do you think we should be perceiving power?
Licia: Yes we have undertaken to rebrand power! Let’s face it. It needed a rebrand. Now I challenge everybody listening to this podcast go and Google ‘Power’ and see what images come up. The images that come up are ‘men saluting in front of an army’ or ‘banging a fist on a board room table’ or launching phallic shaped rockets up into space’. This is the imagery of power.
Licia: What was becoming more and more apparent to me was the power that women exhibit, literally every day. Every day. Working for their communities. Keeping our communities going. It has always been humming in the distance. It’s always been there.
So recognising that power and how transferrable that power is to public office and how needed it is in public office as well.
So I’m talking about the power of women that are running their local business chambers, or running the drought relief or bushfire relief, or mental health resources out in their rural communities, or the local P&C, or checking in on neighbours and working out what’s not working in a local community and then working out what needs to be done to improve it. That is the job of a politician.
Jenelle: What do you think is going to happen if we have this rebrand on power? We have more women in political office. What do you expect to see as a result?
Licia: I hope that what we would have is less women choosing to automatically deselect public office which is happening now. So women that do extraordinary work for their communities who say “Oh but I couldn’t do that job”, or “I don’t have the skills to do that job over there.” I want more and more women across Australia, regional, rural, metro of all diverse lived experience to proactively identify themselves as future political leaders because they care for the community and they want better for the community. That is what I want. That’s about rebranding power.
Jenelle: Do you imagine a tipping point? So the point at which you’re like Yeh this is now, we’re good here now. We’ve hit enough of a mass. It looks like this. It feels like this. We know that we’re there when we’ve hit this point. What’s that point?
Licia: Well look I can quote our mission. Our mission is about gender parity in all levels of government across Australia. But more than that it’s about a constant, ongoing pipeline of women who are wanting to be in public office and that those skills are tangibly having better outcomes throughout all of our communities across the country. Because those diverse lived experiences has such a better capability to understand what policies need to be put in place in Australia. Now, again, this could be at a local government policy level or state or federal. It doesn’t always have to be at the Canberra level. It does not. It depends what interests you as an individual as to what level of government you might seek to run for office. But that diverse set of lived experience puts us in such a better place in terms of understanding the policies that we need and then implementing those policies for the betterment of all.
Jenelle: Look I’m going to put myself out there as an example. I just know that there are many of us when we think about whether we might take on something like this. You do get a visual in your head. Your mind kind of races to a particular.. for me maybe the idea of facing a wall of leather seats in Parliament House in a combative situation. Maybe facing a bit of abuse from a blurry bunch of suits facing my way. I’m sure that’s not the only way that this would be play out, there is many other ways. But that sort of is the thing that conjures up in my mind and it might be in others as well.
What do you say to people who default to a particular frame. That might be it. There might be others. It might be a juggling thing. A load thing. How do you help people think differently about a role in politics?
Licia: Yeh well I feel like we are just so well informed, all of us, aren’t we about the negatives of going into politics. So informed. Overly informed.
Jenelle: I’m very informed.
Licia: Yes and I’m desperately looking forward to the next special or series that focuses on the other half of life in public office. What you can achieve. All that wonderful thing that women are doing out in their communities every day right now pro bono, volunteering, how they could be in public office and get more done and get paid for it as well. Focusing on all of that positive that can be achieved if somebody gets elected I think is a big part of how we combat all of that side and equally we get wonderful testimonials from women who come and speak with our alumni about their experiences. Yes, there were hard days. There were definitely hard days. There were hard weeks. But I would go back in a heartbeat.
Jenelle: You talk about this diverse lived experiences and you want to see people bring to the table. No doubt you have heard some incredible stories. Your own story is a great story too but there is many stories you would have heard of people who were doing their thing in the local community decide to run. They have seen some benefits from that.
What’s the story? I often say that stories are the key to unlocking, shifting mindsets and making change happen. Is there a story that stands out in your mind? This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why we need to do this.
Licia: Oh that is very hard to pick one story. We just helped a very large crop of women run in the NSW local government elections and so many of those women were doing exactly what I said. Doing amazing things for their communities already for whatever reason they weren’t feeling represented. We say there are 3 reasons why women run. They’re either, pissed off, they’re passionate, or they’re political. So there is those 3 P’s that drive them. Maybe it’s a combination of all 3 in some situations. They didn’t feel represented and they had got to a point where they’ve said “Right I understand now that it’s not going to get better unless I get involved”. “I’m ready to get involved now.” That’s part of this rebranding power. You’re already 9/10 of the job let us help with you with the 1/10 cause there is still a bunch of stuff that you need to know. That you’ll be better off if you know. But it’s that inherent leadership skills that is so important and that so many women already have. They don’t need new skills. That’s not what our parliaments need.
Jenelle: When you were launching the ‘Power Like You’ve Never Seen’ campaign I know that was underpinned by some research in this space. What stood out to you from the research that you did to inform the campaign?
Licia: There was a couple of things that stood out. That was how many men were interested in seeing more women in Australian parliaments.
Jenelle: Why do you think that is? That there is so many.
Licia: Cause I suspect many men in Australia have equal agitation as to the status quo and a flow on question was that how many Australians had a woman in their life that they would like to see in public office? Now maybe that’s intuitive again for the listeners of this podcast. You’ll instantly go to that woman, that woman – I’d love to see them in public office.
We’re funny creatures in Australia though culturally the way we talk about politics and that’s something that I always like to challenge everyone about. I challenged myself about it. A woman might say at a barbeque “you know what I’m thinking of running”. “I’m thinking about giving it a crack at the next election” whatever election level that is and that we don’t say as a community, like I know many of us has said “Are you crazy?” “What are you thinking it’s toxic”. “Don’t get involved.” If we change that discourse to say “You should go for it”. “I would love to see someone like you in an elected position”. “Tell me how I can help.”
We’re funny creatures politically/culturally in that respect. I’d like to think that we’re helping change that discourse.
Jenelle: I think that’s so powerful. It’s exactly right. I mean I would absolutely agree that would be the common reaction. “Oh seriously are you sure you want to do that?” “Why would you?” That kind of narrative is very much what would be the default. It sort of would give me pause if someone said “Oh my God you should totally be doing that”. “You would be born for this”. “This is exactly what we need to be seeing.” You almost feel like your shoulders would straighten up “Yeah I think I could”.
Licia: It’s not going to get better is it? It’s just not going to get better unless we put a stake in the ground and say “Right let’s improve the status quo”. I’m going to get involved to be part of that change.
Jenelle: Then I guess if you look at it from both sides of the equation. So there is the filling in the pipeline. How do we get enough people wanting to be doing this? But once they’re in the system how do we make sure that isn’t all the horrible things that we probably do fear, how do we then get enough in potence in there to create the change within the system as well which then becomes a reinforcing mechanism to attract more people. We obviously have to look at both parts of that equation right?
Licia: Absolutely yes because it’s hard enough to get elected in the first place what you don’t want then is then high levels of attrition of woman out. There is a few ways in which our organisation is trying to assist with kerbing that attrition and many other organisations and look massive improvements like Kate Jenkins report last year Set the Standard Report. That’s at a federal level but then each state government is responsible for improving the culture and the work environment and many reviews have taken place recently as the last 18 months. That review is happening in Victoria in terms of local government at the moment.
A similar review has happened in NSW and Qld in the last 2 years. How do we improve the culture? What is it that we need to change about our workplace to decrease the barriers to entry but then also to ensure that people want to stay, particularly people that will improve the diversity of this place. So mentoring. Ensuring that you have good support networks when women are in there. We have started last year Parliamentary Friends Group in Canberra which has cross party support to run forums for not just women who are elected in Canberra but their staffers. Even female journalists. To make sure..
Jenelle: Is that literally for friendships? Cause I do think it seems lonely for a number of people in there.
Licia: Yes absolutely and has been shown not necessarily a supportive network there either. So we initiated that last year and post the Federal election we have a number of different events scheduled in Canberra for the coming together again cross party to help provide a support network that hasn’t necessarily been there otherwise.
Jenelle: As you say Women for Election is a non-partisan organisation. You don’t have any kind of affiliation or preference for any political party, but we do have a Federal election due to take place in May. What kind of change are you hoping to see in this period of time?
Licia: Oh look I think. I’ve already seen some of the change I wanted to see which is even the number of women candidates has significantly lifted from past Federal elections and nominations for the election haven’t even formally opened or closed yet. I think that engagement is a big piece that I want to see and again we like to think we’ve played a part in that.
The equal other side of that is now how many women will get elected and that’s up to the public. That is up to the public to understand whose running in their seat and I would really like to think that they would look for a woman’s name on the ballot sheet. Now not to vote against your values for a woman of course but understand who is on that ballot sheet and vote for a woman if that aligns with your values. The only way we will get gender parity in those houses is if the public vote for them.
Licia: We’ve already got gender parity in the Senate so it’s the House of Representatives that particularly has to improve.
Jenelle: So as you know Licia this is a podcast all about change and you very much about making change happen within our political landscape, within the conversations that might be happening in backyards or at the various forums that you’re in and also the change that you were trying to drive yourself when you were running for a seat. What, if you look back on those moments of change on this platform that you are trying to drive. What have been your lessons on how to successfully drive change? When you think about the levers that you’ve pulled. The moments that have made a difference. What would be some of those lessons around change?
Licia: Yeh there is a few. I think particularly focusing our organisation on empowering more than just white women lawyers into parliamentary roles has been a big part of what we’re trying to change. Doing outreach to what I would say is politically underrepresented parts of the community from rural and regional women, to First Nations women, to young women, to women from a diverse range of sectors as well that might not have university degrees but have run an NGO for 30 years and totally understand policy needs in that particular sector.
So learning about how to do that outreach and to do it appropriately and respectively has been a lesson and out of that has come the partnership that we have with I call them our ‘sister organisation – Politics in Colour’, so those are workshops / training events just like ours but run and facilitated by women of colour that do the same training but the additional training as well that refers to the additional barriers to entry that women of colour face when they run. I think those contextualised training workshops are particularly important.
Also working with the parties has been a big lesson for me as well in terms of socialising what we’re doing with the organisational wings of the party. Letting them know who we are. What our intent is and equally who we’re not and why they should work with us to ensure that they’re never left high and dry if somebody suddenly resigns or retires from a seat. That they have a healthy and robust pipeline of women to be able to select from. Those would be the two lessons that come to mind.
Jenelle: From that I’m hearing that you really broaden the net. Lean into the diversity of society. Try to capture people who really are a true reflection of the country that we’re in and also establish areas of mutual gain in working together so when you’re working with the various parties show how this is of relevance to them. How this will lift everybody up. It’s not about anyone particular person or party’s interest, it’s in the interests of all to broaden our pipeline, strengthen our pipeline, have more voices at the table that can represent more.
Licia: Yes absolutely and I think the fact that we are non-partisan in nature is a big part of our success. Different people try to colour us working for the other side and neither of it is true and I think we’ve demonstrated that. We’ve helped women get elected across the political spectrum and that won’t change because we need women across the political spectrum. Women of all diversity across the political spectrum in those chambers otherwise you just end up creating more absolutism and a greater divide where one is further on this side and one of this is further on that side and we’re even further away from a collaborative environment. That is not what we want at all.
Jenelle: So what’s happening with the pace of this change now? Since you’ve been in the role. What kind of uptick have you seen of women in the pipeline? What kind of uptick have you seen of people successfully securing seats that they’ve gone for? Is that pace of change in the velocity of that pipeline moving well? Too slowly? Where are we at?
Licia: I think I would always be impatient that it’s moving too slowly but it’s sessions like this that allow me to pause and reflect a bit more about the successes we have had. In 2019 I think we trained under 200 women and in the last 12 months we’ve trained just over 2,000.
Jenelle: Is that right?
Licia: That is a significant growth and to be honest moving everything online just allowed us to scale at a rate that I had not forecast and that has been fabulous.
Jenelle: Is it because also there are more pissed off people? Of the 3 Ps which P is becoming the biggest driver for this?
Licia: You remember me saying earlier that timing is everything well that applies to this as well. Yes I think we picked our window quite extraordinarily well and women were on the hunt to find something that they could get involved with to make things better. Like we don’t gild the lily in our sessions at all about what it is to run, and what it looks like to run for a party, what it looks like to run as an independent. The money you would consider in each time. The time commitment. The profile raising all of that kind of stuff. So a percentage of women that come out the end of our training are crystal clear that they don’t want to run. I always say that’s still success. That’s an informed decision as distinct from deselecting something you haven’t even really considered but because they have greater insight into the process and how they’re individual skillsets might be applied within that process, those who choose not to run are fully dedicated to helping another woman get elected. So we have seen alumni connected with another alumni saying “Look I’m good at volunteer management” or, “I’ve got digital skills” or, “I know my way through data analysis and so forth I’ll help you get elected”.
Jenelle: Oh the flywheel of change. It’s good.
Licia: There is a role for everyone. Absolutely.
Jenelle: I imagine that so much of the benefit here is about lifting the lid on how it works. Demystifying this great big amorphous process that no one really knows anything about and sort of saying “Well this is what happens, then there is a step here, and a step here, and you going to learn about this, and you are going to be asked to do that”. To what extent is that a major blocker just the unknown of it?
Licia: That is a total major blocker. The whole process is thoroughly opaque. Some people would say that it’s kept deliberately opaque but the more transparent you make it the more likely people, particularly women I would say, are to step into it and you’re right we break it down into essentially a pragmatic to-do-list and there ain’t a woman I know that can’t get her way pretty well through a to-do-list.
Something you said earlier as well about how well informed we are about the negatives of politics and how toxic politics is and so forth. Again, I like to challenge people that just keep in mind that at least in part, that toxic narrative is maintained in part to keep us out. I thoroughly believe that because for every toxic story that I’ve heard I have another 25 that I’ve interviewed for our alumni that have no toxic story. Well we don’t hear about those. I think that’s an important thing to balance out as well.
Jenelle: That’s really powerful Licia. So if I was to just … I mean I feel like you have been saying it the whole way there is a very clear message to the audience but if there is any advice for our listeners, particularly women, who would be considering becoming more engaged in politics or men who might be thinking about people in their orbit that could be. What would that be? What would be your message?
Licia: My message would be understand the measure of success. As soon as you take off the pressure of its ‘about getting elected’. As soon as you relieve yourself from that, just understand that by getting involved, maybe that’s running yourself, maybe that’s you being up on that dais with those individuals, those campaign forums at the Town Hall, just by you participating in that and forcing those around you to discuss the things they might not want to discuss otherwise, you are having an impact on the outcome. You are improving the health of our democracy as well. Even if you’re not thinking of running in the next 12 months but you think that maybe it’s something you might consider in 10 years’ time – start gathering the information now. That’s really important. I hear way too often the different women that go through our courses saying “Geez I wish I knew this information 2 years ago or 5 years ago”. There was a massive disruption in my seat and I could have taken advantage of it then.
Jenelle: Fantastic. So I’ve got to ask the question Licia – do you see yourself ever running for office again?
Licia: 100% yes. I want to run for office again. My time will come again but I can’t help but feel that helping 2,000 other women to run in the interim is going to have greater benefit in the short term.
Jenelle: Well it may well do but it’s going to be incredibly powerful to have that on your CV when you run up for it next time as well.
The last three. Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast
Jenelle: I’m going to finish with the fast 3. Totally unrelated to the line of questioning that I’ve just put you through! And just off the top of your head don’t overthink this one. What are you reading, watching or, listening to right now?
Licia: I am reading a book by Wendy McCarthy at the moment actually who is one of our ambassadors. I picked up a copy at her book launch which I think was only last week. ‘Don’t Be Too Polite Girls’ is what it’s called.
Jenelle: I’ll definitely be reading that one next.
Licia: Yep fascinating read. Fascinating.
Jenelle: Fantastic. What is your super power? Now that can be something really useful and additive to the world or it can be a useless party trick.
Licia: Oh I’m a pretty handy shower singer. I’m not going to lie! But beyond that look my super power would be I feel like I’m a community builder.
Jenelle: Yep that’s a pretty cool super power. Actually both of them are but I’ll take that one as well. If you were going to put a quote on a billboard, what would it be?
Licia: I always thought they should do something about that! Then I realised that I’m ‘they’.
Jenelle: Oh that’s a perfect way to finish up. Perfect way to finish up. Thank you Licia for your time. I have to say I feel like I’ve had a real shot in the arm. This whole conversation for me has been a shift of narrative. A shift of perspective. From shifting the one looks at success. There is a simplistic way of looking at success where you can look at what were you trying to influence and how did you go about moving the needle on that.
There is a shift of perspective on the role that an individual can play. Am I part of the problem? Or could I be part of the solution?
There is a shift of perspective on the tropes that exist out there and how might we think differently about that.
Jenelle: I think about you’ve said there are 3 motivators for why people would do this. Pissed off, passionate or political. They most certainly can’t be the 4th P which is passive and I think all 3 of those Ps that you’ve said are incredibly powerful. What I feel like is you have brought in some other Ps that are important for us to be thinking about in a different context. The P of Power. Let’s not be afraid of that word. Let’s rebrand. Let’s own that space because we do have an incredible amount of power that needs to come to the table. Let’s rethink how we think about politics. There are some views of how that could be but what’s our opportunity to shift that. Let’s rethink the impact we personally can play in the space. I think it’s incredibly powerful to remember that we already have the skills that we need. So it’s sitting there. It’s not like we have to go up and dig them up and retrain. A lot of this just actually engaging and learning about what needs to take place here and actually leaning into there, being part of this.
I certainly feel really empowered and motivated to rethink my whole narrative and my whole mindset about this and I hope others feel the same. Thank you so much for your time.
Licia: That’s such a lovely summation Jenelle, thank you. I really appreciate talking this through with you I feel enlightened as a consequence as well. Let’s rebrand power together!
Jenelle: Woo hoo! You said it! Power up!
The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
END OF TAPE RECORDING

Lucy Turnbull AO
Director, Turnbull and Partners Pty Limited

Intro: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 3 of the “Change Happens” podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading change and the lessons learnt along the way. Today’s conversation is with Lucy Turnbull. Now Lucy is so many things – an urbanist, a businesswoman, a philanthropist. She has a long-standing interest in cities and technological and social innovation. Her roles have included everything from being a lawyer, a counsellor, the first female Lord Mayor for the city of Sydney, wife to the 29th Prime Minister – Malcolm Turnbull, the inaugural Chief Commissioner of the Greater Sydney Commission, a published author and an Officer of the Order of Australia of the Distinguished Service to the Community, Local Government and business. The conversation I had with Lucy showed me that she’s an unbelievably curious person with an unbounded energy to contribute to a better, more sustainable, more inclusive, safe and innovative society. What you’ll hear today in this episode of Change Happens, is we talk about power and we talk about identity and also what it feels like to be referenced as the daughter of someone or the wife of someone when you yourself are a force for change in your own right. We also discovered that we share a superpower but you’re going to have to listen to find out what that was. I hope you enjoy my chat with Lucy Turnbull.
Jenelle: Hey Lucy, thank you for taking the time to have a chat with me today. How are you?
Lucy: Oh, how are you going Jenelle, I’m well.
Jenelle: Lucy I want to start by getting a sense of “you” in your early years. Can you tell me a bit about your childhood days and maybe provide some broad brush strokes of your formative years growing up.
Lucy: Okay, so I grew up in Sydney, I was born in Sydney. Both my parents grew up in Sydney and their families have been, you know, in Australia for many many generations, so we’re very much, I guess, an Anglo Celtic cultural heritage and background which is much less common these days. We have happily and much more diverse and, you know, sort of mixed … mixed demographic society these days but in those days, it was pretty Anglo Celtic in the eastern suburbs. Interestingly, one of the first waves of immigration when I was growing up in the eastern suburbs, two sets of our next door neighbours were actually, the parents were holocaust survivors. The two sets of parents were in Auschwitz so from a very early age, I had a profound and sort of like understanding of the horror of war. I think both the mothers, certainly one of them, I’m not sure of the other one too, had been one of the people experimented on by Josef Mengele, so they couldn’t have children and all the children in both sides of the properties, you know, both houses next to me were actually adopted, although it was a very Anglo Celtic society in those days, I did have a, you know, and a very fascinating but disturbing exposure to the horrors of the Second World War and those families were, I think they were Hungarian by birth and so I was exposed to that and also, you know, I went to school in the eastern suburbs and … which was really interesting but it was actually a time of considerable social change in the … especially in the 70s. I finished primary school and went into high school. I finished high school in 1975. So I grew up in a time of, I think enormous social change, the Vietnam War, peace movement, the first Germaine Greer wave of the female liberation movement. So it was a … I grew up in a very interesting time indeed and I was very lucky to do that.
Jenelle: Well, you know, you talk about your Anglo Celtic background. You were formerly Lucy Hughes.
Lucy: Yes.
Jenelle: The Hughes family name carries a lot with it. So your … I think your great great grandfather, prominent Sydney landowner, your grandfather Sydney Lord Mayor. Your father, the Federal Attorney General. So no doubt, growing up as a Hughes would have been … I would imagine both a door opening asset but maybe also an expectation carrying curse. Was that how you found it?
Lucy: Its actually quite … its an interesting phenomenon which I’ve observed both on my own account and our kids account. Well it didn’t really worry me but, you know, not personalising this to my family but for some people, I wasn’t sort of so troubled by it and, you know, my brothers and I sort of like, I would say high functioning, you know, successful in our own way people but I think, you know, in a funny sort of way, you are conscious of it but I was very determined because I’ve always had this really kind of bizarrely strong egalitarian streak in me that I wasn’t better because of whom my parents were or what my father did or what his father did or his father father father did. I don’t know where this came from but I had this instinctive belief that, you know, you are the individual you are and I think I probably learnt this because my dad was in politics. You’re always framed as being somebody’s daughter. I guessed I pushed against that, not by being rebellious per se, but by developing a set of values where I take people on their merits and I don’t … I don’t get affected, you know, who they are or what their background is. I actually take them and you know, engage with them and get to know them as an individual and I guess that … in a way that makes me, I guess, dislike rather intensely this whole idea of culture wars, you know, where there’s the, you know, what very right wing conservatives on one side and the extreme woke culture on the other where people are easily characterised because of who they think they might … the people might think they look like being.
Jenelle: Yeah.
Lucy: I’ve actually always resisted that and given people, you know, the opportunity to speak for themselves and not to be typecast, stereotyped etc, according to what people might like to think they should be like.
Jenelle: Sure and I can … yeah, it’s a very obvious that that would have come from first hand experience of not wanting that to be done to you.
Lucy: Yeah. I think in the last 60s and 70s, there was, you know, there was an element of racism in Australian society and I always bridled against that. You know, I just sort of, I don’t know, whether … you know, my parents weren’t racist at all but there were sort of tones of racism in, you know, in I guess, civil life and society in our culture which I always bridled against as well because I just didn’t think it was fair to judge people on their colour, wasn’t right and you know, one of the earliest, you know, memories, I guess, apart from the … my first political memory really was the death of John F Kennedy. I can remember when my dad was elected to Parliament because I was about five and he told me that was a big moment for the family but the assassination of Kennedy, then his … a few years later, his younger brother Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and that that civil rights movement and the death of Martin Luther King really kind of awakened in me a keen level of interest in social justice and equality.
Jenelle: Throughout your career Lucy, you’ve been involved in so many things, roles across government, corporates, not for profits. You do a lot of things and you care about a lot of things and I’m hearing, like already and we’ve only just started this conversation. What is the common thread and the passion that has driven you during all these years and across all those roles. If you had to distil it to a kind of the common platform or purpose that drives you, what would that be?
Lucy: I don’t think there’s a common platform as much as I guess what I’ve done and what I do reflects my high level, you know, sometimes I’m sure annoyingly high level of curiosity to find out more and also a desire to actually, you know, informed by my experience that I’ve discussed, you know, my formative years with the neighbours from the holocaust and, you know, growing up with news about, you know, the race riots and you know, sort of extreme social unrest in the move for equal rights in the US. It’s been informed by those values of equality and trying in some way to make the place better – not worse. So I guess, when I checked myself and what I do and ask for my approach to things and just say is this going to be incrementally better or incrementally worse. Not for me so much but for the organisation or whatever I’m turning my mind to. Its sort of like … that’s always in my background. That might be a catholic girl thing but its … its definitely in the back of my mind all the time. Its sort of like is this going to be a decision for good or what is informing what will happen here, what's the benefit of what's going to happen here.
Jenelle: Where does the conviction that you can affect some change or you can make this better come from?
Lucy: Well, you know, I’m not sure I do have a lot of power to make change but whenever I’ve had the opportunity, I have tried to do that and to try and do that through the eyes of, I guess, through … with an open mind and, you know, an open heart and a good heart and that’s the way I’ve tried to approach it. So not to do it through a strong sort of preconceived bias. So I think … I think one of the things I try never to do is to pre-judge things. It’s always … so I think that idea of being curious and having an open mind makes you more, I guess, open minded or open hearted to listening to the views of others and I really like hearing other people’s views and perspectives who have had different experience, have different qualifications than me and hear what they have to say and see what they think because I don’t think, especially when these are important decisions you’re making, you should come with preconceived notions.
Jenelle: Very good. I wanted to turn to the topic of “cities”. Its something that you’ve had and continue to have a massive interest in and a heavy hand in. What is it that inspires and fascinates you about cities.
Lucy: You know, so as a small kid, I was fascinated. I couldn’t have said this at the time because I didn’t really know this but looking back, I was fascinated by architecture, by trees, how big the trees were, how much shade there was, what the houses looked like, what the city looked like. So I was just sort of observing this in my mind’s eye, all the time. I had a finely tuned or a deep interest in what the world around me was like in a three dimensional sense. So that meant I guess, I was very curious about how it changed and in the late 60s and 70s, it was changing an awful lot. Like the city skyline was changing by the day, sometimes by the minute when all the big tall buildings were going up in the 60s and 70s. I remember as a kid in primary school when they were building Australia Square and that was kind of like a really big deal. Now that’s not such a tall building now but it was a really big deal at the time, it was a matter of great discussion. Of course, dare I say the big, you know, the building controversary was building the Opera House and how much it was costing and whether the architect, you know, the architect was sacked, Jørn Utzon was sacked and I remember all that news. I followed that news avidly and, you know, really closely because I found it quite fascinating. I loved the idea of the Opera House, you know, sort of followed that in the news very closely because I guess I was expressing, you know, in an unspoken way, a deep level of interest in the built world around me as well as the natural world.
Jenelle: Love it. If you think across the landscape of the roles that you’ve had, you know, it could be all sorts of things, a city of Sydney Council, the Lord Mayor, the Chief Commissioner of the Greater City Commission. What stands out in your mind as a … as a change that you feel particularly proud of having had, either led or had some significant role in, and what is it about that change that you think made it successful?
Lucy: Shortly after I became the Lord Mayor, like about 30 days later, suddenly the size of the City Council doubled and the population more than doubled and we took responsibility for places like Woolloomooloo, Kings Cross, Elizabeth Bay and various other parts of Sydney and actually being involved in that … that rapid change was really interesting because suddenly we had to scale up the organisation to double things like waste removal and doing development applications, doing all the stuff that a council does but times two or three, just from one day to the next and then it happened again, sort of less expectedly. We were able to plan for that because it sort of had been in the pipeline for a long time and then like six months later, suddenly they doubled the area on us again and that took us down to Surrey Hills all the way down to Botany which was a big … a big move in terms of the coverage of the local government area and actually managing increase in size and responsibility is one of the big challenges of any organisation. I’ve seen it in the private sector and the public sector. So that was really interesting, challenging and fun doing that.
Jenelle: If I just even pick up on that last example that you just gave there about the scaleup of local government and the perimeters with which you were working with. If I think about that, there’s obviously, you know, the up-tick on resources and the roles and responsibilities but no doubt, as you broaden that kind of geographic landscape, you’ve got more and more stakeholders that you have to deal with. There would have been angst, there would have been, you know, uncertainty about what that meant for them and their roles, would they have roles, what would they be. What did you learn about managing stakeholders, communication across that group. How did you effect the kind of change that you needed to have to be able to scale up the way you needed to?
Lucy: Well, you know, the most important thing you need is … first of all you need an organisational competence and we had really good leadership and really good executive management and you wouldn’t have been able to do anything without that because, in fact, the Lord Mayor and the councillors don’t … they’re non-executive, they’re not executive leaders and of course you need to have a lot of stakeholders come on the journey with you and so what we did early on was we had large public meetings where the people could meet us, see us, talk to us. Not just me, the management team, other councillors etc and I remember there was one really big meeting in Kings Cross and that was a really good forum for speaking to people. It was quite funny. A couple of quite disruptive people. Now if you’re a councillor, you’re used to this phenomenon so its like water off a duck’s back. A lot of people would say “listen, I was at that meeting, I don’t know how you put up with those people” and I said “you know, that’s local government, that’s what you do” and there are, you know, there are some times people who aren’t happy and will probably never be happy but how I tried to treat them is respectfully and listen to what they have to say and say “well thank you very much for expressing yourself but for the following reasons I don’t agree with you” and if they’re still rude to me, you know, like you can only go so far if, you know, you can’t pitch yourself against a brick wall for so long but you have to start off from a position of respect and open mindedness and listening.
Jenelle: You said, you know, there’s only so much you can do and you treat people with respect and a little bit like water off a duck’s back. As someone who, the water doesn’t flow that easily off my back, I tend to get really upset if, you know, if there’s people, there’s a lot of angst or pushback or whatever, were you always able to kind of brush that off … tell me when it didn’t feel so great?
Lucy: Well its like public speaking. Like I was actually very nervous about public speaking and really until my mid to late 30s and the only thing that makes it less intimidating or less, you know, I guess stressful, is actually doing it and each time you do it, you cross another little river, cross another little road and each time it’s a little bit easier. So you know, obviously being quite nervous sometimes and apprehensive and then you manage it and you just keep going, you know, “one foot in front of the other” is not a bad motto.
Jenelle: Its not a bad motto at all. So I want to also turn to the other side of the equation, Lucy, where maybe there was change where you were trying to drive and for whatever reason, just couldn’t get there. What … give me an example of that. What did that feel like for you and were there some lessons from that experience?
Lucy: I think one of the things, its not so much me, but I think one of the things that I really, you know, I guess I’ve been partly responsible but not solely responsible. One of the things that really troubles me a lot now, a lot, is the cost of housing. Well in Australia but particularly I guess because I’ve been involved in Sydney and I worry about where kids and even people, you know, in their 30s today, how they will ever be able to buy a house and get a foot on the housing ladder and that really troubles me but I think we really need to get cracking and do more because one of the … one of the things that’s quite clear is that there are still huge gaps in gender equity, you know, pay gaps and female dominated work sectors or job sectors like the care economy, like nurses, childcare workers, age care workers which are female dominated are paid much less well than men like tradies and plumbers labourers. A childcare worker gets $953 a week, this is from a government website. A brickie’s labourer gets about $1,490 – say $1,500 a week. That’s a huge gap when you think of the relative responsibility, like the childcare worker is basically priming the mind of this child … of the children they look after for their future life and I’m not denigrating the work of brickie’s labourers and plumber’s labourers but I don’t think you could argue that their work is a lot more valuable than a childcare worker. So we’ve got kind of fundamental disparities in our system. Gender equity is a key objective for, I think, everyone across Australia, certainly in the policy area because if you think of unequal economic power in a household. If you have, say a woman with much less economic power and earning capacity, that woman will be in a more vulnerable position than the male who’s paid much more has the capacity to exercise a lot more coercion and control over the woman and dare I say it, you know, there’s a lot of consensus that inequality – economic inequality is a driver of domestic violence. So there are all these kind of flow on effects from the way we value people’s work and I think, you know, at the Greater Sydney Commission, we identify the significance, the economic and the social significance of health and education precincts and education and health service delivery in our plans, partly because of my experience when I was in local government, say with research institutes in the city wanting to expand. There was a lot of local pushback and I said, “listen, you know, like this building is bigger than the rest of the street but you have no idea the significance of all the work that these medical researchers and sort of scientific researchers do, the value of the work of Universities and large hospital campuses”. So there’s no doubt there are huge piece of our future both in terms of our wellbeing and our education. So you’ve got to try and recognise that in the planning system and I would really like that kind of thinking to come across to the way people conceptualise the value of labour as well and then if there’s less economic inequality between men and women, then there’ll be, you know, less domestic violence and there’ll be, I think, a better world. So we started this whole idea in my final weeks as the Greater Sydney Commissioner. We worked on it beforehand of developing something called “The women’s safety charter” because I do think that we need to look at cities through a gender lens. Unfortunately the pandemic kind of slowed that down but its really important that we actually do everything we can to make women and young people feel safe in the city as they use the city and move through the city, especially now as the CBD is kind of under, I guess, greater economic and social threat, seeing as we’re all used to working from home. I notice we’re both doing this from home. So we’ve got to make sure that people feel safe and happy to use the city. Women are the ones that are most likely to feel vulnerable and so are old people and less abled people. So we’ve got to look at how we design and plan and maintain for safety and a feeling of comfort so that we can actually get as many people into the city as we can.
Jenelle: So then, moving to a related but perhaps more recent example of you pushing for change in the gender space. You’re part of a group of twelve high profile women in Australia who recently published an open letter to Australians on safety, respect and equity. Can you tell me more about that?
Lucy: Well it was really, if you like, 2021 was a big year, gender equity. There was the march for justice and there’s this increasing realisation that we don’t have, if you like, a gender equitable society. We’ve been going backwards in the world economic forum rankings of gender equity. All the trends, if you like, going the wrong way so we think that affordable childcare is a fundamental component of gender equity because typically in a household, the lower income earner which is usually the woman, the mother, steps back from the workforce for a few years because of the marginal cost of childcare, makes childcare prohibitively expensive, so we’ve got to address that, so that the women’s career paths are not as trimmed, if you like, trimmed back by child minding responsibilities as they currently appear to be. Like the standard childcare requirements for young kids is three days a week which implies that the … one of the parents is not, you know, the women steps back and does part time work. Now there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that but there are some careers sectors where going part time for five years or seven years if they spread their kids out has actually quite a material detrimental effect on their career path and progression and that’s reflected in the grossly different levels of superannuation that women have compared to men upon retirement. So we’ve to, you know, if you’re going to give economic equity to women and men, you’ve got to address all the barriers to that and, you know, we do want to have, you know, the safety respect equity … does want a world where sexual harassment is … there is a positive duty of employers to limit or to make sure, as much as they can, that sexual harassment is deterred in the workplace. That’s really important because if sexual harassment is acceptable in the workplace and the systems don’t work to deter that and stop that, that will more likely leak into a house or a family group and everything. So a lack of safety and vulnerability to sexual harassment permeates everything and so I say, just like, you know, in workplaces, you want to have safe lighting and staircases with no trip, you know, no trip down staircases when people are running around offices and have all those sort of safety rules and regs. You know, safety from harassment and discrimination is just as important.
Jenelle: Absolutely absolutely. So if I think about some of the names that are in that group of twelve, it makes me wonder what does it feel like to be having conversations with folks like Grace Tame or Brittany Higgins about this when you and say, Wendy McCarthy, who’s also in that group have been on this planet for a lot longer or not that much longer, I don’t want to sort rude [laugh], but you’ve been flying these sorts of flags before, how do you not feel exhausted and jaded when you hear the same themes coming through from the younger ones?
Lucy: I don’t feel exhausted. I actually feel inspired by them because they have such strong clear voices and they’re speaking from direct experience in a very compelling way and they speak to everyone. You know, they certainly speak to me but they have such clarity of insight and purpose. I think it would be crazy not to listen to them and of course, you know, like Wendy was very involved … she’s about 20 years older than me but … or thereabouts, but not quite, but she was involved in the very first wave of feminism when I was at school etc but I watched her from afar as a young child when she was involved in the women’s electoral lobby etc. So she is a serious pioneer and I saw it, you know, that I was very influenced by Germaine Greer who … I read her book when I was, I think, about 13 or 14 or thereabouts. So you know, these women, sort of like the first wave of feminism and we should never forgot the Suffragettes who kind of started it all, really back in the early 20th century but you know, there’s actually a lot in common and what’s interesting is that the group of women really cross the gender divide. There are people from First Nation backgrounds, lots of diverse backgrounds in that group and, you know, but we are all concerned about the same thing which is a lack of equity, respect and safety.
Jenelle: As I think about the various worlds you traverse – politics, not for profits, corporates, you would no doubt have had quite a bit of experience with power – soft power and hard power. Any insights about effecting change and using soft versus hard power?
Lucy: Well my preference is soft power, very much so. I mean I can use hard power when required but its … I use it as a last resort and I think the transformation in the city of Sydney and the scale and the scope of the city of Sydney’s operations, that was only achieved through a high level of collaboration across the organisation, across the various streams of the organisation and the community. That was, you know, collaboration was key to that successful collaboration but with the Greater Sydney Commission, it is an intrinsically collaborative model, we use soft power and persuasion and through, you know, speaking respectfully to each other across state government agencies, including treasury, transport, premier’s department, health, education. The infrastructure delivery committee basically had every key actor in the government that is responsible for city making or service delivery in cities and that was really kind … that is such an important move to have all the government agencies talking to each other and that’s really really important because often government agencies fragment and don’t talk to each other and I think, you know, one of the best moments … you’re asking what are the best moments before. I think one of my happiest moments in terms of my public life was when the Greater Sydney Metropolis of three cities plan was delivered at exactly the same time as the infrastructure plan and the transport for New South Wales plan. Now that’s sounds like boring geekiness …
Jenelle: No it sounds like a real …
Lucy: It was a moment, I tell you it was absolutely a moment. It was done by the … by Premier Berejiklian in March 2018 and it was such an important moment. It had never happened before in Sydney’s history and that was … like that was a really big moment, to have all those big government agencies working together to resolve a plan and, you know, each plan was approved by Cabinet. So it had that sort of integrity and cohesiveness … internal cohesiveness which was really important and hadn’t really ever happened before in Sydney’s history. So that was quite a moment.
Jenelle: It’s fantastic. So moving from power, I wanted to shift to identify. We sort of have touched on this a little bit earlier before. You are clearly formidable in your own right by any measure, but you have had big stints in your life where you’ve been recognised in reference to someone else, whether its an Attorney General’s daughter or the Prime Minister’s wife. How do you … what's that like and how do you internally reconcile that for yourself?
Lucy: Well it is what it is but I, you know, its [laugh] … yeah, it is what it is and I guess I struggled with it as a young … younger person more than as an older person. You know, like I have to say, it does get a bit boring being tagged as “somebody’s daughter or somebody’s wife”, although I am, I don’t deny it. I definitely am but I wonder if male children would get the same treatment. They probably would, they probably would actually but it does get a bit tedious but, you know, you can’t fight the tape, there’s nothing much you can do with it so you might as well accept it, deal with it, don’t get angry, just move on and do what you want to do anyway and, you know, I mean I would say that now I’m only referred to as somebody’s wife. My dad retired a long time ago so somebody’s daughter has sort of dropped off the screen but I’m only referred as somebody’s wife, I would say maybe 50% of the time I’m referred to in the media. When I was … this is a funny thing, when I was in politics in the city council, I was there as an independent councillor, you know, and we had the majority called the Living City Team. There were two Sydney alliance which kind of loosely aligned with the Liberal Party or more aligned with the Liberal Party and a Labour councillor. So the only political role I’ve ever held is as a political independent. When Malcolm was PM, I kind of got a little bit kind of … I guess agitated sometimes that people would always shoot home to me that I was completely aligned with whatever the government was doing and similarly, when I was the Lord Mayor when the Labour Party was in government, the minute Malcolm expressed an interest into going into politics, representative politics, you know, sort of standing in the seat, the Labour Party panicked and actually didn’t give me the respect which I thought I deserved for being an independent person but they just said … people in the Labour said “oh you can’t possibly stand for re-election as the Lord Mayor now that Malcolm has gone into the Liberal Party” and the good thing is I don’t think anyone would get away with that these days. So I think we’ve moved on from 2003 but it really rocked me at the time because they had exposure to, you know, what I’d done, I hadn’t been politically partisan, it really annoyed me but, you know, sometimes things annoy you more than others and you’ve just got to get on with it and live with it – right.
Jenelle: [laugh] Will that mean … if I just … I mean not to extend the memory, the awful memory of that but if you think that happened to you in 2003, then September 14 2015, Malcolm gets elected. I’m sure … or was it the case that after the excitement of the high of that wore off, when did the realisation kick in of “oh my god, that now means I’m the PM’s wife” and its going to be that to add to my CV instead of expectations that are sort of …
Lucy: Oh no, that didn’t really worry. I was so happy that Malcolm was the Prime Minister. So that didn’t really worry me. I guess my tormented period in that respect was actually in 2003/2004 when, you know, when suddenly the drawbridge came down … sorry, went up. The gate closed on a political career in the city council because the Labour Party at that time didn’t trust me because my husband was like in the Liberal Party. So, you know, maybe they saw me like that, I certainly hope no woman ever experiences that again.
Jenelle: So … we’re talking about Malcolm. You met him at the ripe old age of 19, I think …
Lucy: Yes … in my dad’s chambers because I was sort of temping because his secretary was away doing, you know, sort of I guess law intern work and Malcolm was doing the interview of my dad for The Bulletin. When he was a journalist he did an interview of dad for The Bulletin. Yep.
Jenelle: So, I know that you, you know, each described each other as your most trusted advisors and greatest cheerleaders. You’ve worked in many ventures together including medical research, social and cultural institutions. Obviously the Spycatcher, much known case where you were pivotal in doing that legal research. What's the secret to being able to move what looks like really seamlessly between work and home, from business mentor to supportive spouse or not so happy spouse, whatever the case may be, because we all go through those cycles, how do you manage that fluidity and complexity and still also ensure that you have your own space?
Lucy: Look, we just celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary on Monday so it’s, I mean, it’s hard to image an alternative. So we have been each other’s allies and closest sort of confidante and counsel for many decades, for generations almost. So its kind of … its kind of like “business as usual” but it is built on a huge level of mutual respect and that’s really the basis of it and respect for each other’s abilities and experience. Yeah so … and you know, a complete understanding that we have each other’s interests at heart more than anything else.
Jenelle: That’s fantastic. So, you know, on the many things you do together is you have Turnbull & Partners, which is a family owned business that invests in early stage innovative enterprises. What excites you? Why do you do that work? What is it about that, that you invest in there, what drives you there?
Lucy: Well, we’re both really excited by technological change and the good things that can bring. Obviously we have a multiplicity of investments in the tech space, you know, I guess, pretty sort of geeky sort of stuff but its really interesting and, you know, we just love that sort of … that sense of what the future can hold in a positive sense and particularly investing in Australian innovation and know-how. When Malcolm was PM he had a very early … one of the first things he did was to pull together an innovation agenda and to, I guess, highlight the importance of building an innovation economy and I think that’s probably, if you’re asking one of the things he was proudest of, but that sort of reflected our own interest in that space over, you know, and experience in that space over 20 years and the need for there to be a lot of innovation coming out of … coming out of Australia because it’s, you know, the normal paradigm was “oh, we didn’t really do much of that. We’re a mine, we dig up coal and iron ore and export gas and that’s us, don’t worry about, you know, sort of inventing unicorn companies” and we certainly don’t agree with that. That principle is as important as, you know, resources are obviously to our economy. You know, like the future … the future will be a low carbon to zero carbon economy with a lot of smart people doing great things and that’s kind of an interesting place to play in.
Jenelle: You also play a really significant role in supporting entrepreneurs in our country. Why is that?
Lucy: Well because … because, you know, I love the way entrepreneurs take risks, they see things in a way that, you know, normal people don’t see … you know, regular people. I’m not saying that they abnormal, that most people don’t see things, they spot opportunities. They’ve got this sort of intuitive, I would say, sharpness of mind. It’s a combination of intuition and deep knowledge and I really respect combining those two things, sort of you know, books smart and streets smart with a strong sense of intuition and there’s an opportunity, there’s a gap and sort of running with it persistently. It’s just … it’s quite inspiring.
Jenelle: It is actually. It makes me think … well you and I were at a dinner together a couple of weeks ago and you were sitting at the other end of the table to where I was at but there was one point in the conversation where I was speaking to the entrepreneurs that you will remember who were sitting either side of me and it was like I was at a tennis match. My head was just flitting back and forth because they were talking about, you know, “what are doing and what do you do with the by-products of that because we could do something with this” and the other person said “yes we’re already doing that but have you been to Brazil because they’re doing this”. It was … and I was just so struck by how ignited their imaginations were.
Lucy: Oh yeah, like on fire all the time, just spotting opportunities but I think the best entrepreneurs, as I said, you know, like in government working collaboratively is the sort of like the secret source of getting things done. So is it with entrepreneurs. They have to work, you know, with their colleagues and their partners of course but actually spotting opportunities from maybe not even adjacent industries or businesses and just saying “oh we could do this together” and doing it in a completely new way. That sort of disruptive frame of mine is so … is so, you know, beautiful to watch.
Jenelle: Yeah, it really is and I was also struck … not just by those things but also just the sense of agency that they clearly felt in being able to do something about that …
Lucy: Yeah.
Jenelle: … and I was wondering, you know, I came out on a bit of a high, just going “my god, with people like that, like the world is going to be so amazing”. You know, we’ve got so much hope for the future. What do you … how do we gather that kind of mindset and infect the rest of society, you know, to be … they don’t have to entrepreneurs but perhaps more entrepreneurial.
Lucy: Well I think there’s, you know, like there’s a lot more of it around than there was ten or fifteen years ago. I think a lot of people who are entrepreneurs actually have, that I’ve heard, say this directly have given Malcolm credit for sort of changing the sort of like the perceptual landscape of how important entrepreneurial is an innovation and I think that has been really good. You’ve got … I mean the best thing to do is leading by example so if you have a whole lot of people who have done very well as entrepreneurs like the big stars, they inspire just like sport stars inspire young kids at school to become sporting heroes, if they’ve got the, you know, the athletic and ball skills. So entrepreneurs are either … kids can see and uni students can see in action inspire others and it’s a bit … it’s the same as gender equity. There’s nothing as compelling for young women than seeing older women do things that they can aspire to and that’s was actually … when I became the Lord Mayor, that was actually one of the, you know, some of the letters made me cry. These young girls who said “I’m so glad you’ve become the Lord Mayor because I’d like to be the Lord Mayor one day”. That sort of … and I think Julia Gillard has spoken of that when she was the first female Prime Minister. There is something, you know, and its actually great, not that the person who’s just got the jobs great, certainly in my case, but its actually the example you’re showing to younger people to come up through the system with those aspirations and that’s the best thing about it actually. To me, its that, you know, breaking a glass ceiling, you know, whether you’re an entrepreneurs or a woman leader of whatever you’re doing, if you can break that glass ceiling or that barrier to achievement, then other people look around and say “well if they can do it, I can do it too” which is the best possible way of getting people’s perceptions to change.
Jenelle: You were awarded an Order of Australia in 2011 for Distinguished Service to Community, Local Government and Business. What did that mean to you?
Lucy: Oh, I was kind of like shocked and amazed. When I opened the letter, I was just so “wow”. I was absolutely surprised. It meant a lot to me. It was very very, you know, I was very moved by that and you know, quite awed and shocked actually. I would say shocked and awed would be the first reaction, but you know, it was actually a lovely recognition and I’m deeply grateful for it and never expected it, to be honest with you, and so it was a surprise and a wonderful surprise. You get all sorts of surprises in life and that was a wonderful one.
Jenelle: That would have been an amazing letter to open up that day I am sure.
Lucy: Yes.
Jenelle: You were recently appointed Chair of the Opera House Trust. Now in what, I think, a beautifully book-ended story if this true what I am about to say but I heard somewhere that you were at the opening of the Opera House as a young girl, is that true?
Lucy: Yeah, I went. It was sort of my first time I ever went to something as a young teenager, I think I was about 14 in … to the opening of the Opera House because my … I had a godfather, a very dear godfather was like a grandfather to me who was a judge and he never got married so he took me as his date to the opening of the Opera House in 1973 and it was a really amazing experience. An experience sitting in the concert hall. I’ll never forget seeing the pink seats. They were the things that amazed me the most, I think. I’d been listening to Beethoven’s 9th and everything. It was just like so unbelievable. It was a really … a very important moment in Sydney’s history and certainly in my growing up kind of history because I got into an evening dress and stuff for the first time and so it was just like a magical night in Sydney and next year, next October will be the 50th anniversary of the Opera House so it will be amazing to be there as a fully grown up Chair of Trustees when I was there at the opening as a, you know, my first time dressed up for a black tie event.
Jenelle: What a beautiful beautiful book-ended story there. Now Lucy, you just seem endlessly motivated to do more and to be more. I have to ask. How do you find the capacity and the energy?
Lucy: Well, because I like what I do. So I went to a speech and one of the mantras is “do what you love and love what you do” and that’s actually been a very important mantra for me and I’ve always tried to follow it. So, you know, absolutely do what you love and love what you do. Its actually a really good lesson for life. Now not everybody has the opportunity to always do that and let’s be honest, not everybody always does what they love, like cleaning the kitchen or doing the ironing or laundry or something but, you know, as much as you possibly can, direct yourself to doing things that you love because it gives you a thrill and you think its important and valuable. So I’ve always tried to do that.
Jenelle: Fantastic.
The last three! Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast
Jenelle: I’m going to finish up with a really fast three. Simple questions, don’t overthink it. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?
Lucy: Well I’ve been binge watching television. I’m watching … I’m reading, you know, like all television shows and everybody’s watched them so I won’t dwell on them but I’m reading a really interesting book about modernism, about the whole modernist movement and, you know, how its fed into design etc written by a great academic, Australian academic who’s worked in the US called Terry Smith. I find that whole modernist movement very interesting. I don’t agree with everything that arose out of it. I love that and what was the other one … reading …
Jenelle: Reading, watching or listening to right now.
Lucy: Listening … I listen … I have to say I listen to the ABC just about … I mean Malcolm is a real podcast person. I do podcast … I love 99% invisible and I love bits of this American life but mostly I just love listening to the radio and sometimes I listen to podcasts on the radio but its great to listen to things as they happen. I’m just … I’m fascinated by current events and there’s been so much happening in the last two years, its hard to sort of step outside what's happening in the present.
Jenelle: That’s it. What is your super power? Now this can be something that’s additive to the world. In your case, it probably would or it could be a useless party trick?
Lucy: Oh I’ll tell you … I’ll show you my super power. It’s the grandchild fascinator.
Jenelle: What!
Lucy: This is my super power.
Jenelle: Oh okay, I’m going to have to give voice to this. Its where you curl each finger over the one preceding it [laugh].
Lucy: Yes, my grandchildren call me “Gaga” so this is what we call Gaga fingers.
Jenelle: You know what, I can do that too.
Lucy: Oh right, so you’ve got the same super power.
Jenelle: I’ve got the same.
Lucy: You’re the first one I’ve met with the same super power. See, there you go.
Jenelle: Oh god, I knew that there was something we had in common. [laugh]. All right snap. Now if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be.
Lucy: You know, do your best and put one foot ahead of the other when things are tough.
Jenelle: Oh that’s perfect. Lucy, can I say thank you so much for your time today. I’ve taken a lot out of our conversation. What I will walk away with amongst many other things is your clear and genuine and unbridled curiosity to find out more and I think you do that, always driven by your values of equality and your strong sense of social justice. I think its clear that you approach opportunities with an open mind and as you say, an open heart which means that you don’t pre-judge and you’re receptive to hearing and learning every step of the way. I love that you have such a keen awareness of the world around you, whether that’s the trees and how much shade they’re affording you or, you know, the death of Martin Luther King or whatever is happening in the world events around you. I love your ability to bridge the macro with the micro. So you might be thinking about something that is connecting nations together and you’ll be just as much thinking about well let's fix up the graffiti on the street in order to get us there. I think your learnings around exercising soft power to effect change in the strength of using respect and persuasion and collaboration to do that. Its hard not to be infected by your motivation for what the future can hold, whether that’s in cities, or in women’s equality or tech and innovation or entrepreneurism or sustainable economies, its all there for the taking and thank you for being so inspiring to others. For being an exemplar, for being someone who will show that we can break glass ceiling and, of course as you say, do what you love and love what you do and if you’re feeling, you know, nervous about it, just do it, put one foot in front of the other. So thank you so much Lucy.
Lucy: Thank you so much Jenelle.
The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
END OF TAPE RECORDING

Linda Brown
CEO and President, Torrens University Australia

Jenelle: Hi. I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 3 of the Change Happens podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. Today I’m joined by Linda Brown, the president and CEO of Torrens University. Now there’s a good chance you haven’t heard of Torrens University. In fact, a recent article in the Australian Financial Review said as much, saying “Torrens University is not a household name in Australia, but the American-owned institution has been quietly growing at a speed that rocket scientists might find difficult to explain”. Yep, this private for-profit university, is Australia’s fastest growing university. The story of Torrens is a fascinating one and it’s impossible to decouple the success of that from Linda Brown herself, who has that inimitable Scottish charm and charisma, coupled with fierce passion and boundless energy and a fearlessness in disrupting the status quo to drive amazing outcomes, not just of students but societies more broadly. She’s a true change maker of the very best kind. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Linda Brown. Hi Linda! Thank you for joining me today.
Linda: It’s a pleasure. Thank you.
Jenelle: Very excited for the conversation. Now, I want to start if I could just if you could help the audience understand a bit a bout you, your personal story. How would you describe your formative years?
Linda: Oh wow. So, people who are listening will have worked out – they would be trying to work out if I’m Irish or Scottish or sometimes even Canadian. So it’s a Scottish accent although now I’m a Scottish Aussie, which I’m really, really proud of.
Jenelle: The Scottish is coming loud and proud, I reckon.
Linda: I grew in a tiny little village in Scotland in Perthshire where, when I was born, genuinely I was the only child in the village. So it had maybe at that time 300, 500 people in it. It’s now an enormous village. You know it’s maybe now got 5,000 people in it. So still a very small village. So I went to the little village school and in my class in Year 7 there was 8 of us, which was really small, personalised learning. Then I kind of went through traditional schooling and got to the point where I was first in family to go to university and picked the university based on what was the furthest away from home, not what I really wanted to do. I think I applied for everything from PE teaching to science and engineering to public policy and economics, which was where I ended up, at real redbrick, you know, not a sandstone university, called Paisley Tech. So I’m very – a good Scottish term is “jammy”, you know, I always land on my feet. It’s not – I wish I could tell you I had planned this whole thing out, but I haven’t in any shape or form. When I met who’s still my husband now 35 years later we were looking for a mortgage when I left uni, not knowing what I was going to do, and Abbey National, who we went for the mortgage with offered me a job as a graduate trainee. So I worked with them. So, financial services. Then they did some work with Fidelity so I did some future stock broking and then the education bug hit really. So that was the start of the journey and the early formative years in a small village in Scotland.
Jenelle: You mentioned the education bug was where you got the first education bug. Tell me about that. What piqued your interest?
Linda: That was really interesting. So the first – I’d done my undergrad degree and kind of cobbled through that. I was never an A grade student. I just did what I had to do while I was working on the side or running a busines or doing whatever. So I did that. But then when I went to do my Masters, at that time it was my MBA, I went to Strathclyde Uni and I wanted to learn in the evening because I was working. And at that time I was working for Fidelity and I probably was running nearly a billion pounds portfolio of futures, you know, as part of my Fidelity portfolio. But interestingly the person who was teaching me economics or finance in that MBA had never worked. So here they were not contextualising it to the business world. They were talking about dry economics and Keynesian theory and all this and to be honest at that time, Jenelle, I thought I can actually do this a little bit better. And I was pregnant with Cameron, my first child, and I took myself off to do a Post Graduate Certificate of Education to become a teacher, because that was the first “Aha” moment for me about contextualising learning, you know? And the fact that it’s easier -and we find this throughout my career - it’s easier to teach a professional or somebody who’s amazing at their craft to teach than it is to teach a professional teacher about what’s going on in industry. So that’s kind of always stuck with me all the way through. And we have, you know, 70% of the academics who work for me now are “pracademics”. They work as well as teach and that’s been a really important tenet to what I believe in education.
Jenelle: I have never heard that term, “pracademics” but I’ll be using that. I really like that. Now, you’ve done a lot of things in your career. You’ve made a range of important choices about who you’re going to work with. Is there an overarching purpose or mission that has drive you or at least informed those choices that you’ve made?
Linda: I think there’s two things. I think the first blessing, and I say this all the time and I’m, you know, I’m a feminist. I’m really into female diversity. But I have to say thank you to my family and my husband because Robert worked in mining and he was – he calls himself an “industrial prostitute” so, you know, he was part of the Compaq sale to Hewlett Packard, ICL to Fujitsu, you know, Nortel. And he would go in and sort companies out and then move on. And for me never having the responsibility of having to pub bread on the table has been a considerable blessing because it meant that I had choice. And that’s all I want everybody to have. But it also meant that I could be incredibly brave. And there’s this amazing research that’s been done. It came out originally out of Exeter University and everybody talks about women and the glass ceiling but there’s this research that shows women are also involved in a glass cliff. And if you think about most of the jobs where women get promoted to, you know, significant CEO roles it’s usually where there’s masses of risk and it’s an either win or lose situation. And I’ve always been involved in those kind of situations because I was courageous and I was given the opportunity to be courageous. So for me, I could really pick and chose where I wanted to work and I think from that point of view I’m blessed.
Jenelle: I know you came from a public education background. Tell me, how did you find yourself then connected with Torrens?
Linda: Oh, for me it was one of the hardest decisions I had to make in my life. If you look through my career it’s always been about changing or disrupting educational systems or going in and fixing them once they’ve been disrupted but the ecosystem hadn’t been put in to make the change. So for me when I came to Australia I was brought into Australia by the Public Service. I was brought in by Queensland Government to make TAFE, which is technical and further education, “sexy”, because it’s not incredibly sexy in Australia and it’s very much seen as the kind of little brother to universities. If you can’t go to university you go to TAFE and for me that’s just not acceptable. They’re two different things and they’re equal, they’re just different. So I was brought in to do that. I stayed with them for five years, it was amazing. And then after that went to Swinburne because, again, there was a bit of disruption going on in the market. There was a thing called the Bradley Review which just was common sense to me where they were looking at schools, colleges and universities and trying to get better connection between the three so that people didn’t feel that 29% at that time were going back to TAFE from universities to get skills to get a job. Isn’t that crazy? They were having to do a Diploma after a degree to get a job. It was just crazy to me. So I went to Swinburne and worked with an amazing guy down there, Ian Young, who ended up being the Vice Chancellor at ANU, and we did a lot of work around maximising that duel sector advantage. And at that time that team created a thing called Swinburne Online which was a partnership with Seek with Andrew Bassat where they were actually looking at a more commercial way to put out education to people who were working that was much more at a better price point and people could travel through their education journey at their own pace. So we were involved in that and then at that time -universities are interesting things. Universities are, in Australia, are run by Vice Chancellors, a phenomenal group of people, but usually academics. And there’s this great kind of expectation that when a Vice Chancellor changes the strategy changes. So you can have a university that is maybe a working man’s university, so it’s quite practical, or you can have a university that’s a research-intensive university, and then when the new Vice Chancellor comes in they kind of pull a new strategy out of the drawer and try to change the whole purpose of the university. So for me we had a new Vice Chancellor and at that time I thought no, this isn’t now what I wanted to be involved in so I was going to leave. And at that time Seek came to me and asked me if I would run a group of colleges called “Think Education” and sell them to a company called Laureate, which was the biggest higher education provider in the world. So I did that but you don’t put somebody like me into run $80 million dollars’ worth of colleges. So when I went in I said I’m happy to do it but I knew that they were trying to get a licence to create a brand new university, the first privately funded one ever in Australia, and I said I’ll come and do it as long as I get to build a brand new university from scratch. So I really struggled with that because, for me, I believe education is a human right. I believe everybody should - like bread, water, air – education should be available for everybody. And for me I struggled with the private nature of that but my son and my daughter sat me down and they said, mum – and it was really interesting because at that time I’d applied for the Director General job in Queensland to go back into the top job in Queensland where I believed I could change the whole structure from within the public sector, you know, a bit naively. You can usually do that until you get the front of the newspaper and then they pull you in. So my daughter and my son and my now Chancellor, Jim Varghese, counselled me and said if you can do this and build a brand new university, you’re going to create the leaders of the future that will then go on and be the change makers to really drive significant change. You’ve tried to do it from within, and I always try to do it from within, even now I’m trying to agitate within the system. But from my point of view we have driven more change as being as showing people how to do it rather than talking about it or fighting against the system that already exists.
Jenelle: It’s really interesting listening to that because if I think back to the earlier question I asked about whether or not there’s been a common thread that’s driven your choices, to me listening to that it feels like you’re purpose is really figuring out where you can effect the greatest amount of change as your overarching kind of beacon for informing your choices. Does that sort of resonate for you?
Linda: I think 100% and it’s not – it’s changed for a particular impact. So for me it’s not the smart kids in and smarts kids out change. That change can happen some place else and other people are really, really good at that. For me it’s about affordability, return on investment, how does somebody who is aspiring to be educated to be honest really involved in the process that they understand that they are going to get what they want. Which might not equate on a league table for our university status but it really is, I suppose, their reward is in the induvial in the employability, in what industry gets. So, productivity and social change through economic mobility is a thing that really drives me but not for a few. It really is – I want open – I want everybody to have the opportunity at the lowest possible price and that, I suppose, is a crazy thing to say as a CEO, but I believe if we do that we open up the system and competition’s great, you know?
Jenelle: Love that! You’ve been the CEO of Torrens for – since it’s inception here. It’s become the fastest growing university in Australia. Congratulations by the way!
Linda: Thank you.
Jenelle: In your mind what’s been the reason for that success? Or reasons?
Linda: I mean for me it’s always about people, you know? So it’s always about the team and making sure that we have a team that are focussed on the outcome and really get the purpose, do you know? We’re a B-Corp. That brings with it it’s own responsibilities of balancing what we call the beautiful and the business and making sure that we create a sustainable business. I think the other thing is I think we were very clever at looking for a gap in the market. We don’t compete with the other 42 universities that are in Australia. We looked for a very distinct part of the market that we’re maybe a little bit more transactional in education. They wanted to come in, they wanted to pick the subjects they wanted to do, not the subjects that they were given. They wanted to do it 24-7, if they wanted to be creative at 2 o’clock in the morning we make that happen. So for me we were very student-centric and for us it was about employability, employability, employability. And that was really before employability became sexy in universities because that was seen as a secondary thing. Universities were there about knowledge, about wisdom, about research, they weren’t necessarily aligned to employability. So we filled that gap and I think people were crying out for that and we just – we hit it at the right time I think.
Jenelle: It’s an interesting point around become student-centric and taking that focus and power away in some ways from the teaching, the teachers or the providers. I mean that can be a very confronting thing in a landscape where that’s kind of been the model for a very, very long time. Where have you felt the rub of that? Maybe outside of your own university other players that you’re talking to, do you feel that resistance to shifting that focus to the students - giving the power, the voice, the platform to the student rather than holding that where it’s traditionally been held?
Linda: Yeah, a lot. And I think the biggest place to look at that is around content. You know, universities previously – and I have loved public universities. So, you know, this isn’t a bag public universities and I’m a private – we’re just different. We do things differently. So for me in universities you still have the academic who owns the IP for the content. When they basically do that lecture or they go into that situation, you know, it’s a very personal situation. You know, you know, you would think back to your university days and you had lecturers who were amazing and you’ll remember them forever, you had some who weren’t too hot and there seemed to be no equity in that or no check in that. We don’t do that. The content is all developed centrally so that if you’re studying in Brisbane or Adelaide or Sri Lanka or Colombia with us you’re getting the same content. Now, that doesn’t take away the power from the academic. A good academic will then contextualise that, tell stories, bring flavour and colour to that. But what that allows us to ensure is that everybody gets the same quality and they get the same information and the same assessment. So for me that’s critical if you’re trying to scale up and have a really big impact and try to keep the costs down. So that was really interesting because when we started to recruit – it was fun, I tell you! So when we started to recruit for the new university there was an incredible amount of courageousness in there and trust in there for the people who jumped on board with us at the start. You know what universities are like – you’ve got tenure, you’ve got protection, you’re unionised.
Jenelle: Oh, God yeah!
Linda: You know, it’s a very, very structured employment environment. You know how many – how big an office you get depending on what your title is. You know, it’s very, very staid in the way that -
Jenelle: That’s right. It’s disrupted everything that people hold dear!
Linda: Yeah, absolutely. So but interestingly we got incredible amount of Emeritus Professors. So that’s the highest kind of level that you can get to in your academic career. It’s watch my career all the way through, disrupting and building and disrupting and building. But they wanted to come and play. They wanted – they were frustrated with the current system and they were at a point in their career almost like what I’m saying with Robert, do you know what I mean? That I could go in and do something disruptive? They were at that point in their career where they could have fun and go and do things that they always wanted or talked about happening. So we got an incredible amount of high-end Emeritus Professors joining us as the start of this journey. We got an incredible amount of young, edgy pracademics who were in industry, they weren’t getting the talent they wanted so they wanted to do something to change that. What we didn’t get was the kind of middle. We didn’t get the career academics because for them we don’t give everybody two days for research or we don’t – you know what I mean? We look at industry connection, research and teaching and if you’re excellent at any one of these you can become a professor in our organisation. It’s not just all about research. So some people couldn’t fit into that thought process where it’s about your own accountability, not about tenure. So it was really interesting at the start attracting talent because we got all the disruptors. So can you imagine - you’re trying to create a brand new university that the regulators are happy with, that you look like every other university because there’s this real chip on your shoulder about they could come in and hurt the system, and here we are with a basket full of crazy disruptors that were amazing teachers and researchers and industry connectors? So we had to kind of balance that out and we did that through the help of our board.
Jenelle: You know, I love listening to that because it’s almost like I’ve got this visual of the fringe-dwellers, the disruptors on the edge, the, you know, the pracademics on the side, the people who are frustrated, missed the amorphous middle bit and then using words like they wanted to come play it sort of – there’s something very liberating about that and unruly and chaotic but awesome about what you’re then playing with and within the bounds, still working within the boundaries so, you know, for a period of time and then gently nudging and pushing on those. So, it’s a great visual. Actually, there’s one quote that I loved I read from a Deputy Vice Chancellor from the University of Canterbury and the question that we asked around the future of universities, the future of teaching and he said the future for universities is to both stream like Spotify and offer experiential learning like a Crowded House concert.
Linda: I love that!
Jenelle: Which sort of had quite the visual thing for me. I wondered what your take on that vision is and how do you see the future of education?
Linda: I think for me it’s about the head, the hand and the heart, you know? And it’s like the head is the knowledge and the wisdom and that’s a really important part of it and the accreditation, the proof that you’ve got that I think is still important. But for me the hand, being able to apply that. You know, our job now is not to teach content – I still want people to teach content if it’s doctors or lawyers or whatever but genuinely most people don’t look at what type of degree somebody has got now. It’s really about teaching people how to learn and how to take the information that they can access and actually take that information and apply it in a way that has purpose and impact. And some people still look at education as a time-based thing. You know, you’ve got to do so many hours to become good at X. Well that’s just rubbish, you know what I mean? So if you’re really going to be student-centric it’s really damn hard. You’ve got to be so flexible so that people can pick and chose and move up and move down and the thing I love about the Spotify idea, there’s still a position that’s required – we call them success coaches – to help people curate, do you know what I mean? Because you could choose your own journey -
Jenelle: Yes, I do. It’s overwhelming otherwise.
Linda: Yeah, you choose your own journey and you could end up with nothing that cohesively goes together to get you to your purpose. So for us we use Gallup StrengthFinders so that people could talk about their strengths and have that language that industry uses and we have a success coach for each student who doesn’t teach, they literally curate. They look at what the student wants at the end and helps them get there, you know what I mean? So we don’t say to them if you’re dreaming of being a film producer, put that dream away, do this course in film animation and then at the end of your course we will pull your dream back out of the cupboard and then we’ll help you get a job. We don’t do that. In parallel with the student all the way through we’re making sure they can earn while they learn in a film lot and get paid for it rather than doing free internships. We look at the programme and curate the programme for the so they could do psychology with a business qualification with some design qualifications so it really is personalised learning but not chaotic personalised learning that you don’t end up with something that the market values, yeah? If that makes sense?
Jenelle: It does. And actually there’s just a beautiful circling of the story there, you know, you were in a classroom of eight people growing up and you’ve had the most personalised experience and then you’ve gone to this massive world with unlimited content and you’re still working to create that kind of very intimate, personalised learning experience. I think just listening to your story I can see those people sitting tougher. It’s – I live it and I do think the idea of a success coach who curates that for each student is fantastic because it is absolutely overwhelming. I find myself just getting buried down paths of content or whatever, social media content, like it’s great stuff but you can spend hours going and, you know, navigating that and not knowing really where you’re going to end up. So I think it’s a really important role.
Linda: Yeah, it’s good. It’s working well.
Jenelle: I bet it is. I’ll bet it is. I want to turn to on a leadership front, Linda, you know when I think about, and we’re obviously still coming through COVID, what was it like for you to be leading the university during COVID given how deeply and broadly higher education was disrupted by the pandemic? Do you remember those early days of that time and the kinds of decisions that you had to make?
Linda: Yeah. And I mean to be honest it still is. I mean, technical terms it was kind of scary as hell because you knew as a new university even more, these people trusted us. They brought their career to us, which was a courageous decision, you know, to move away from traditional universities, come and work for us, brand new, no reputation, proprietary owned through at that time Laureate. You know, I understood how important a decision that was for people. So I felt a great sense of responsibility to the 2,000 staff we had. And then to the 20,000 students. You know, we had half of them were international, half of them were domestic although I believe every student is an international student so don’t come to our university if you don’t want to be in a class with 10 different nationalities, go somewhere else, you know, because we’re a global university and that’s what we believe in, is global citizenship. So for me the responsibility of that was enormous and right from the start I mean, you know, I made the decision that we would keep people working and we would keep students learning. And that was the captains call, you know? And for me that was critical because we said we will do everything we possibly can to keep you working and keep you safe. Yeah, so immediately we moved off campuses and we will keep the students learning even if they can’t get out of their own country or they can’t afford it. And then the decisions came from that. So for me it was that call that then shaped the phenomenal growth and care and wellness that was created by the community and the collaboration. The other thing that we agreed at that time was this isn’t a time just to look after ourselves. We will open everything up. We will, you know, give everybody in Australia our short courses for free. I think 120,000 people engaged with us during that time because we knew mental health was important. We worked with Beyond Blue to put a massive open online course out which was free explaining what to look for in mental health. So we did some really amazing community collaborative projects that I think really cemented our be-good ethos and really showed that we were walking the talk. But it all came down to that captain’s call which was we will protect you, we’ll keep you working and we will keep students learning and that was without a dollar from the Government. We didn’t take any of the Government money. So I’m super proud. Super proud of my team.
Jenelle: As you should be because you didn’t – obviously you didn’t just survive you thrived.
Linda: Yeah. And if you think about the environment we were in 25,000 people got paid off in higher education during that period sadly. For us we thrived because – and I’ll give you a prime example of that. You know, we were – we’d just been bought. We’ll talk about that in a minute. But I mean we were bought during COVID for just short of a billion dollars. I mean, who buys a university during COVID at the other side of the world when you can’t get there? We had 40 people bidding for us. It was phenomenal, right? And we sold it during COVID and SEI had the trust in us and our team to buy it during COVID. So for me to have a new owner and say actually we’re not going to pay people off. We’re going to protect everybody and we’re going to protect our students, they had an incredible amount of trust in us. And for me I’ll give you an example. So we also take a responsibility seriously so we had a number that we had to hit, significant number, of a contribution that we had to hit in the first year around the sale – which we exceeded by the way – and that had a 28% growth in it. We didn’t know COVID was going to happen and we were short. You know, we were getting to August and we were short. It didn’t look like we were going to hit our contribution number or EBITDA number. And remember we’re non-unionised. So we, as only non-unionised university in Australia, so we went out to staff and said look guys, there’s three or four ways we can do this. I’ve made a promise that I want to keep but you need to help me. So what was happening during COVID and I’m sure you saw it, Jenelle, in other businesses was people were saving their holidays because they didn’t want to take a holiday at home. I mean, who would want to do that? So our holiday liability was up by 40% and we thought we need to get this down because we had it accrual and it was on our balance sheet. So we went out to 2,000 staff and said we can’t force your but we’re asking you, can you take 8 days of your leave between now and the end of the year because that will help me fulfill the promise and we will protect all of our staff. Ninety-four percent of the staff did it voluntarily. That for me was like a warm and fuzzy moment, we’re doing something right.
Jenelle: You know, as I listen to you, Linda, I hear these incredible moments where people have taken a bit of a leap of faith in you and the vision. You know, whether it’s to leave the traditional universities to join and come play or whether it’s to acquire a business in a time that perhaps on paper makes absolutely no sense, or whether it’s to take leave into a different room in their house, you know, that period – you seem to be able to instil this unbelievable level of trust. Or people have this level of trust and faith in you. What can you tell me about how you’ve done that? How have you managed to earn that or even, I guess, lure people to it before you’ve been able to earn it afterwards. I’m so interested in these moments that have happened.
Linda: I think there’s two things. The first thing is the best talent I’ve got is picking phenomenal people, right? So for me, if you look at the team, they are exceptional, right? Exceptional! They’ve got a – we’ve got a common purpose but there is a diversity. I’ve probably got the most diverse team in education and I know I have because Bill Clinton came to open the university for me in Adelaide and when he did it he said to me Linda, I have never seen such a diverse group in a university ever. So that was a beautiful Aha moment for me. But I think picking the team and also getting the hell out of the way so that they can block them and they’re responsible. And to be honest the other one is being really honest when you screw up. And I have screwed up so many times it’s unbelievable. But I think one of the things that I am is honest and, you know, one of the – I was a dreadful leader seven years ago. Dreadful, Jenelle. Honestly, I went through a horrible -
Jenelle: You?
Linda: Yeah, I went through a horrible stage when I first became the CEO of the university that, you know, that wonderful female thing about they’re going to find out I’m not as smart as they think I am so therefore you think you’ve got to do everything yourself.
Jenelle: Oh, God yeah, that’s just ???
Linda: It’s awful, isn’t it? Like and I did that for like two years.
Jenelle: Yeah, Imposter syndrome.
Linda: It was horrible. And because I was so intent on what this university should look like I was down in the dirt and I was getting micromanaging and the worst mistake I ever made in my life was I sub-contracted out my people. I had this amazing HR person who came into the organisation and said I’ll deal with the people stuff, Linda, you don’t need to worry about that, you worry about the other stuff. My God it was horrendous. I think on that – what is that thing that’s on the – you can “glass door” – is it glass door it’s called where you –
Jenelle: Yes, glass door, the rating as well.
Linda: I think I was about minus four – I wasn’t but it felt like I was about minus four.
Jenelle: I think you were two-star by the way but it was still, yeah, I understand.
Linda: It was bad. It was appalling. And then I had a kind of, you know, “come to Jesus” moment where I went I have to change. If I don’t change this organisation is not going to flourish and grow. I either need to change or get out of the way. And with a lot of help, a lot of support, a lot of coaching, my team being super courageous and saying this is what drives us crazy, this is where you’re good, get out of the road, I had an epiphany really about I could actually do more good being out of the business than I could being in the business. And since then I think, you know, it’s been amazing for me and I’m – I hope it’s been amazing for my team. But I think the great thing about that is people were always courageous with me. So they would always tell me if things were working and weren’t working. And I’m the first person to admit when we get it wrong. We screw up, we move again and move fast and no blame. There’s no blame in my world, do you know what I mean, because failure is just – if you’re not failing your not trying hard enough. So for me it was really a learning I think. And I think the people who’ve been with me for, you know, there’s been people who’ve been with me for 16 years in 3 different organisations in Australia have – I mean probably I’ve driven them crazy but my God we’ve had fun. We’ve changed the world. We’ve done amazing things. They think ah, I’m fed up working for her and then they come back again. So they’re – I tend to attract kind of adrenaline junkies or people who are totally focussed on purpose and want to make an impact.
Jenelle: Yeah, I love that. You know, that no blame culture that you embody and you lead is a really liberating thing for people to work in. If you genuinely can call out failure as an opportunity for learning, a learning moment, and move forward that must just open up so many more ideas, so many more suggestions, so much more risk-taking – safe risk taking.
Linda: Yeah. And I think, I’m not being Pollyanna-ish about it, you know, make a mistake once, yep, let’s learn. Make a mistake two, yeah, maybe. Don’t do it three times though, do you know what I mean? So it’s making sure that we actually close the circle and we learn from it and then we move on. And I remember the, you know, think education and the first two weeks of being in there somebody had done something that lost us like $3 million dollars and I think they came into the room shaking going my God, and I said well just thanks for your honesty. Let’s sort it now, do you know what I mean, because at the end of the day if you don’t know you can’t sort it. It’s just crazy.
Jenelle: You know, despite your earlier comment when the new chancellor comes in and they pull out a different strategy I would say that the higher education sector isn’t one that is necessarily known for changing or changing at pace. It’s probably fair to say it’s remained largely unchanged for over a millennium. You’ve just talked then about, you know, balancing out the kind of people in your team with more traditional people on the board. So that’s probably one element of driving change. But I guess in the context of a sector that’s been quite hard to move and to shift with the times what have been the lessons that you’ve learned along the way around driving change in the sector?
Linda: I think for me the biggest thing is to really look at things from above the sector, do you know what I mean? Actually go back to the – I mean the only criticism I would have about universities is they’re very internal. You know, they measure themselves on how much research they do against each other. The measure themselves on how many students they have. You know, they’re all inputs, they’re not outputs. So for me to get above the system and actually get back to why are we here and what are we trying to create and how can we create systemic change and how can we protect the things that are important to formal education without throwing the baby out with the bath water but also in a non-threatening way? So I’ll give you an example of that. So, you know, you would have had to be sitting in the cupboard to not hear all of the press over the last five to six years of many companies now not even looking for degrees to get talent, saying that they’re – people aren’t employable when they come out of universities. The biggest threat was never other universities. The biggest threat was always enterprise training. You know, people who just decided we’ll do it ourselves, it’s much easier and we’ll invest the money once they come to company or Google or Apple. You know, these are the threats, not other universities. So for me it was getting above it and saying OK, I do believe accreditation is important because accreditation gives you a benchmark that helps people understand the potential of a person, not the end point of a person, just the potential of a person. Industry accreditation or practical application is as important. So we made our point a differentiation – you can have both. You can have a university degree that’s accredited but every single piece of curriculum that we put out now has an endorsement by a company that is the best company in that class. So, for example, Canva endorse all our design. Ovolo Hotels endorse all our hospitality programmes and customer service. IBM do, you know, cloud computing and analytics, you know? So we’re partnering all he way through with industry. We don’t write a piece of curriculum without 12 industry players sitting around the table with us. So therefore they own it and therefore it’s so super up-to-date. And if they’re willing to put their brand on it then students get both, don’t they? I call it “the edge”. They get an accredited degree but they also get endorsement from an employer and because all our students have to go to work, they don’t have a choice, so if you come and do a degree with me, even if you come and do another MBA with me, we will put you out to work, either if you’re working for EY we might put you out to charity or we might put you out to a not-for-profit. So you also get a reference from another sector or another employer. So you’re getting a bag of tricks that then makes you super employable. That’s why I have the second highest employability rate for graduate students after only 7 years in being a university. So for me that’s the difference. If you look at it, the biggest thing for me, my biggest strength, my Gallup StrengthFinder, is connections, yeah? Is how do we connect the ecosystem around education with communities, with employers, with industry, with Government, how do we create an ecosystem that one plus one plus makes 10 rather than silos. And I think that’s my biggest benefit or advantage because I see connections everywhere. Everywhere! It drives me crazy.
Jenelle: I’m absolutely a subscriber to the belief that the whole should be greater than the sum of the parts, you know, and that’s what you’re talking about there is connecting that ecosystem for it to create an amplified impact, which is a fantastic take away. I have heard you mention the Torrens “crazy gene” in the past. Tell me about the crazy gene. You say it with a bit of a cheeky glint in your eyes, tell me about that. Is it something that you recruit for? Is it something that you develop within the uni?
Linda: I think it’s both. I think you have to have it to even apply to work with us. You know, if you don’t like change do not come to us. You know, we are so agile and innovative and moving all the time. Somebody who wants to know they can rock up nine to five, do a job, go home, say they’ve done a good job probably would not survive in our culture because we’re always pushing, agitating, trying to move forward but not for agitations sake, do you know what I mean? It’s always got to be for a reason. But Hugo, head of HR, said, you know, a few years ago, we were kind of – and it was actually when we were in the sale process – what a time to let this one out! You know, we’re in the sale process, pitching away, you know, to all these amazing people who wanted to buy us – and, interesting, including some public universities wanted to buy us because that’s a different story.
Jenelle: Oh, is that right?
Linda: Oh, yeah! That’s a different story. We’re chatting away and there’s this culture, it’s a culture, it’s the team, and that’s what it is, you know. They didn’t buy content, they bought people. And people and culture is king. So for me, Hugo in the sales process said, you know, how would you describe this, you know, as a professional HR person. And he went “the crazy gene” – the only way I can describe it is the crazy gene. You know, you’ve got to have this kind of burning desire to really – high accountability in my structure. High – everybody is bonus. Everybody is bonus within the organisation. Everybody gets a share in success, yeah? So we brought that in to Torrens and everybody’s really clear what they’re accountable for. Everybody leads from their circle of influence. So, yeah, there is a crazy gene. And I’m just blessed because that crazy gene also brought about the courageous conversations that I personally needed to learn to get the hell out of the way and let them do their job really, really well and let the organisation thrive.
Jenelle: I want to just bounce back, if I could, to the conversation we had around change and where you – what your lessons were on change. One of the things that you talked about when you said, you know, you get above the system and you think about looking at it more broadly and you talked about systemic change. There are a range of structural impediments to change that exist in the system. So we can drive a mindset shift and some, you know, behavioural shifts for sure and you’re obviously doing that. But talk to me about some of the hard-coded, structural impediments to change that you’ve sort of been aware of or trying to do something about or intend to do something about because very often we can underestimate how deeply those blockages are, you know, embedded.
Linda: Yep. So I’ll give you an example of one we changed and one that we’re trying to change, yeah? So the one that we changed was really simple. There was this crazy tax for students that nobody knew about. So the student decided they wanted to go to a higher ed provider or a private university and they borrowed $40,000 – they get a government loan on that like any other public university. But they used to have to pay a 25% tax, which was called an admin tax. So if you don’t choose to go to a public -
Jenelle: That’s a hefty admin tax!
Linda: I know! So if you don’t choose to go to a public university, you choose, at that time you chose to go to Bond, Notre Dame or ourselves, the student would by $50 grand, which is appalling. And it was like an invisible tax. So we really worked with Government to remove that tax. We agitated through the free trade agreement with America and said it was non-competitive and the Government changed the legislation. So that’s an example of changing something - not just for Torrens, we changed it for the system. And there’s 5 or 6 examples of that, especially around employability measures in universities. Usually we do it quietly. We do it – we don’t – and nobody speaks for us, but the experience that we’ve got globally is we can show Government, public policy makers trends that have happened somewhere else in the world and the unintended consequence of that and we can help then do the research to try to change the policy. So that’s that side. The one that we’re agitating a little bit for now is the crazy, crazy policies around international students. They’re just mental. So you get give an amount of students that you’re allowed to have as a university. So they will tell you in Adelaide I can have 2,000 international students, in Brisbane I can have 1,000, in Sydney I can have, you know, 10,000. And it’s all based on the square footage of campuses. How mental is that, right?
Jenelle: That is ridiculous. There’s no sense.
Linda: It’s must mental. And I must admit the regulator really came to the party with us during COVID, they waived that because it just didn’t make sense because people couldn’t go to campuses. What we’ve got to do now is make sure that some of the great things that changed in the system because the agility and the flexibility was necessary stays in place as we move forward. And that’s one of my biggest fears is that I don’t want education to go back. When we started this, you know, international students were only allowed to do a certain proportion online. Yep, they had to do the rest face-to-face. I mean what does that say? Online’s a lesser quality than face-to-face? It isn’t, we’ve proven that. Again, it’s about inputs not about outputs. So for me these are the debates that we are having now. And I think the second debate, which is critical for Australia, is around the links between migration and education. We have this crazy what I would call kind of grey conversation where people have to say that they’re coming to study, they’re not allowed to say they want to come and live and they’re not allowed to say they want to come and work because that’s how -
Jenelle: Because pretend that’s not happening.
Linda: - it’s pretend. So we talk about that and that’s how they get a visa. Whereas wouldn’t it be much better if people were really transparent and said what they were trying to get and we look at an outcome and we maybe relate that to the skills that we want? So for me there’s these kind of crazy rules that were made 40 years ago that still exist – and we are seeing some flexibility in that because of COVID, so what I really want to make sure is that, moving forward, we don’t go back again to some of the crazy stuff that happened before.
Jenelle: It’s so refreshing to listen to you. You just seem to be completely unshackled from the status quo and just the ability to step back and go well that’s crazy, well that makes no sense, well we’re not doing that. So, it’s a – I can see how that is an incredible impetus for driving change. Now, it would be remiss of me, Linda, to not mention the EY Entrepreneur Of The Year award. Congratulations to you. It’s been a fantastic, fantastic achievement. You’re going to be heading off to Monaco for World EOY in June. What does that recognition mean to you?
Linda: Ah, it’s – I mean it was kind of an unintended consequence of the process because as you know you don’t nominate yourself or you don’t apply and you’re searched out and then, you know, asked to apply, which in itself was just an absolute pleasure. But for me the big – a university! You know, we won the FR which was the Financial Review award 2 years ago for in the top 10 for innovation, which was unbelievable for a university. But to actually wing Entrepreneur Of The Year as a CEO of a university for me just is a wonderful, wonderful reflection on where the sector is going. You know, because if we don’t have entrepreneurship in universities we’re in trouble. You know, what are we doing? So I really – I was – that’s why I was so proud about it. It was a reflection on the team. They trusted me, they’d come with me on the journey, you know, their crazy gene had paid off and it was just beautiful. To be honest, to be up there with the other nominees – and they were incredible – and I’m like this is just amazing to be here. But I think to be the first university, which is interesting, in Australia but then when I looked at the global and went back all the years there’s not been one.
Jenelle: Nothing. No, that’s right.
Linda: So we’re super proud of that. Really proud of that. And I think it just gives you an extra – an extra “oomph” to, you know, we starting on the next part of Torrens to get it up to 50,000 students and a billion dollars in 10 countries – we’re already in 3. So for me it’s just – it was just a nice spot as we sold the company, as we did what we did during COVID, we’ve just changed Chancellor from Michael Mann to Jim Varghese is an absolute stunning man, it’s just been a great kind of recognition of the journey to date. But there’s more to come!
Jenelle: Well, that’s a perfect segue to my last question for you, which is what’s next?
Linda: Oh, world domination!
Jenelle: Muwahahaha!
Linda: No, I think, you know, we’re got this beautiful relationship now with our owners, SEI, who have Capella and Strayer. They have amazing smarts. They were so smart. You know, they have things called Workforce Edge where they have 500,000 employees on that doing employer training. They have Sofia, which doesn’t have academics in it but it’s like going to the gym, you pay $79 a month and you can do courses on line. They’ve just got amazing tech capacity for universities and I’m so looking forward to bringing that into AsiaPac. We’re looking forward to bring design because Billy Blue and MDS are global brands, we’re looking forward to bring that into America. And really just learning. You know, we’ve got – what have we got – 11,000 international students just now from 115 different countries, how do we amplify that? You know, we’ve just started our Africa strategy. We just started our South America strategy. So for me it’s how do we, you know, increase the impact that we’re having globally and really live, you know, our three pillars, which is industries, university, you know putting that student at the centre and education without borders. And we’re just starting to lean into that now.
Jenelle: Oh, my God, I – it’s such an exciting future, Linda. It’s hard not to get caught up in that listening to you. Fast three questions – I know this is going to take you I haven’t given you any kind of advanced notice on this one. But just top of your head, don’t overthink it. What are reading or watching or listening to right now?
Linda: I’m reading – and interestingly I’ve read – done some of your podcasts which were amazing. So I’m reading that The Resilience Project next book “Let’s Go” because I say him two weeks ago.
Jenelle: Hugh van Cuylenburg.
Linda: Yeah, two weeks ago I went to see him, and he’s amazing. Hugh van – and I can’t say the last name, so I’ll leave that to you.
Jenelle: Cuylenburg.
Linda: Yeah. So it’s stunning. I was with a woman who runs Olympic Dam two weeks ago and she told me she used it with all her staff at Olympic Dam. So I’m right into that at the moment.
Jenelle: I’ve read it. It’s brilliant. And what is your superpower? And I want to say I can hear that it’s picking exceptional talent, but is there any other superpower that could be additive to the world, like everything you’ve talked about, or it could be a useless party trick.
Linda: Yeah, I mean, and this will surprise a lot of people, my superpower comes back to my strength which is connections, but it’s because I’m an introvert. There you go, Jenelle. I’m an introvert.
Jenelle: OK, I would not have picked that.
Linda: Yeah, so I’m an introvert but I can take a deep breath, go into the loo, count to five, get out and get, you know, because I take – I get a lot of energy from other people and, you know, connecting things. So I think that’s probably my superpower is that I can turn it on when I need to even though it’s really difficult for me because I’m an introvert.
Jenelle: That’s really interesting. If you were going to put a quote up on a billboard what would it be?
Linda: Oh, my goodness. It’s “Talent is king”. Talent is everything, yeah? And I think it is that begin and end with people. So Talent is King.
Jenelle: Oh, thank you much. And, Linda, thank you for the conversation today. I feel absolutely vibed and really excited about the future here. I know that you described yourself as, you know, “jammy” right up the front where you seemed to land on your feet. That is no accident, you’re not jammy, this is through hard work, through clear passion, relentless dedication to the purpose. I loved the early lesson and exposure you had to the power of contextualised learning and how you have fed that through in your organisation. The head, the hand, the heart – everything you’ve spoken to talks about the connection of that. You talked about, you know, you had the opportunity to potentially make TAFE sexy. Can I just tell you, you’ve made many a thing sexy in this conversation. You’ve made change sexy, you’ve made employability sexy, you’ve made B-Corp status sexy, you’ve made failure sexy. So I think that’s inherent to what you do. You’re ability to paint a vision that people would take a leap of faith for and leave what they know and what they value to join you is a real testament to the way that you can enthuse that purpose and passion through. I think, you know, your learnings around never underestimating the power of picking the right team and then, when needed, getting the hell out of their way is something that we should all learn from. You’re a – the crazy gene, how you channel that, how you use that to unshackle yourself from the status quo and allow others to do the same with no blame and your ability to look up and out of the system and understand how to forge connections to make the whole be greater than the sum of the parts is just some of the things I’ve taken away from our conversation today. I can’t thank you enough for your time.
Linda: Thank you. It’s been a privilege. Thank you. Cheers!
End tape recording

David Thodey AO
Board Chair and active in public policy initiatives

Intro: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Session 3 of the “Change Happens” podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learnt along the way. Today I’m joined by David Thodey, who really needs no introduction but I don’t want to deny him one so let me just say he’s an incredible business leaders, focussed on innovation, technology and telecommunications, with over 40 years experience in various well known organisations. He was the former CEO of IBM Australia and New Zealand in 1999. He then became the CEO of Telstra in 2009. After he retired from Telstra in 2015, he joined the Commonwealth Science Industry and Research Organisation, the CSIRO as the chairperson. He is currently the chairperson of Tyro, Australia’s only independent banking institution and Zero, a cloud based accounting software provider. He is also a non-executive board director of Ramsay Healthcare, which is a global hospital group. Now when you listen to this, you can’t help but be struck by what an experienced thoughtful and humble leader David Thodey. We traverse a range of topics, like how he turned a maligned company into a leading customer centric organisation and we talk about painful public moments of truth in diversity and inclusiveness. We talk about innovation, we talk about identity and truth seeking and the intersection of technology and humanity. I loved this conversation. I took a lot away from it and I hope you do too. Here’s David Thodey.
Jenelle: Hey David, thank you so much for joining me today.
David: Oh its great to be here Jenelle.
Jenelle: Look I want to start by getting a little bit of background from you. I know you were born in Perth but tell me a bit about your family background and maybe, is there anything from those early years that influenced the values that you would say that you hold dear.
David: Yeah, that’s a really good question to start with. Yeah, I grew up in a really caring family. They … my parents were New Zealanders and they came across after the war so I was born in Perth as you mention and I lived here until … in Perth and then Queensland till I was sort of in my teenage years and then my father died when I was 11 and my mother took us back to New Zealand and she was an incredible person. She … now I was one of four boys and imagine raising four boys, you know, late … well it would have been early 60s and so she bundled us all up, took up back … took us to New Zealand where I went to school but she was a really big influence in my life. She was an avid reader, very active in life, loved people, both affable but, you know, discerning person and I think she had a really big influence on my life. I mean my father did as well but it’s just … you know, I was 11 or 12 when that happened. So, yeah, a real big and she constantly questioned and had a great desire for truth and integrity.
Jenelle: Fantastic. Now speaking of your background, I noticed that you hold a Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology and English and I’m really fascinated by that. You’re actually the second guest that I’ve had that studied anthropology and then went on to become a major player in the tech world which I really am quite interested in. So from your perspective, how do you draw the link between your background in, you know, immersing yourself in the scientific study of humanity and then going to play such a huge role in technology.
David: [laugh] that’s a very good question as well. I’m not quite sure. Actually, well I’ve got a confession to make. I was a science maths major through school. So actually …
Jenelle: Oh okay.
David: … in fact I went to University to be a doctor cos I’d done chemistry, physics, maths, applied maths through school and I was … I went off to do medicine but remember it was the early 70s Jenelle and this great opportunity to explore the world, so I felt really challenged to think, well you know, I sort of ignored that part of my life. So I went off and did psychology, English, social anthropology and then archaeology as well and then I majored in, of all things, medieval English and social anthropology. So it was quite a big turn. However I look back on that time and I think around the US, I mean I’m very grateful I had this broad arts, you know, undergrad degree because it did exercise me in ways that I had never been challenged or had to think or use that side of my brain or whatever side of the brain it is. So yeah, but I really was always a science maths major and probably my, you know, if I have natural talent, it probably leant more to that side.
Jenelle: Well its interesting that you say that because I, you know, when I spoke to the other guest who had that background, what he was saying was that he felt it forced him, at an early stage, to think about sort of more macro questions, what's happening in the world and maybe had a breakdown and problem solve in that sort of macro sense. Would you say that same, I mean that’s an interesting – mediaeval English, archaeology, psychology.
David: Absolutely. It made me think about the world, the world around me, about history, context, different cultures. It was. It was very expansive and I … I mean I struggled with it to be quite honest in effect, because my brain had been very … probably more literal than analytical rather than looking for nuances of messaging and looking for the deeper significance of things. So yeah, I’m really glad I did it and I think probably certainly has worked really well in terms of my, you know, my focus on culture and values and what drives people, what drive societies, what's important. Yeah, so very much and also by the way you mentioned technology before. I mean technology is a tool. Its not an end and technology … we need to retain our humanity in the use of this technology. So when I talk to Genevieve Bell, who’s running the AI centre down at ANU. She’s a social anthropologist worked in intel but she’s looking at the societal impacts of technology and how we adapt and use it for the greater good. So I think that its always … always sort of intrigued me and I’m really glad I did it but yes, yes its given me a bigger view of the world for sure.
Jenelle: That’s fantastic. Now returning to your career which we could get lost in here for a really really long time but if I just sort of focus on the Telstra part of the equation, I don’t think its any exaggeration to say that you truly drove transformational change at Telstra and as you know, this is a podcast about change.
David: Yes!
Jenelle: Now at the time that you went into the organisation, I expect you needed to push through a lot of organisational change fatigue, perhaps a lot of cynicism. You sort to drive client centricity. I’m not even sure if those were words that you might have used at the time but certainly we use them now. You drove innovation. You externally changed the public perception of the organisation. Now I know that there are no such thing as “silver bullets” – try as I might to look for one but when it comes to driving change, but what were some of the big rocks and maybe even some of the little rocks that were shifted in that time that you might now, in hindsight, call out as the moments of truth in driving that change.
David: Yes, well you’re right. I really wish there were silver bullets in these things because I’d change and change management, is really difficult. It has a degree of context as well and its hard work. Its not for the faint hearted and as you said, the time I went into be CEO at Telstra, I mean I’d been there for six/seven years, I’d come from IBM and actually in many ways, the way I saw Telstra and all the people was not the way the world or, you know, our customers or the general world perceived it and I continually was challenged by that and … because what I saw within Telstra was this incredibly dedicated group of capable people really driven to make a difference but the external perception was one of bureaucracy, slowness, monopolistic and not customer centric. It was “hey, here’s a product and be grateful you’ve got it” and that really wasn’t what was in there. So in some way change management and actually driving corporate change is actually about bringing out all the wonderful things that already exist and giving them focus but we needed something to rally this together because we had become desperate and we weren’t united in a common purpose or vision and that’s why the customer became so important. Yes, it is about giving good customer service and about having good products that work are absolutely important but it was also getting the orientation to being external because large complex organisations have this incredible ability to get very caught up in themselves and its more about, you know, who’s talking to who and who’s doing what and so we needed an external truth, so an externality that really drove us and then to be aligned against that. So once we really realised it and by the way, I want to be clear, that was always there. I mean, when you talk to a Telstra technician who’s been out on the road for 12 hours and doing another call on the way back home, he or she does feel customer is real important. So it was about that, but … and that changed management. Its about clear … clear about what you want to be together and getting alignment and it sounds easy but everybody will have an opinion and a view and as you rightly said that there would be a few cynics and a few people who don’t want to come on the journey. We really worked hard at that. Like we spent … it was Tracey Gavigan who was the head of HR … we ran a year’s worth of courses for every manager about what customers centricity looked like. Before we even declared it to the market and before we even talked about it. So it was really important we got alignment internally and then to talk about what it meant and what behaviours was required and also what process change, what reengineering we had to do and then back it up with investment and I can still remember, you know, going to the board because we invested, you know, billions of dollars but we also said that we were going to deliver billions of dollars. So there’s still a financial reality around it and that’s what really allowed us to do it. So its getting all those elements working together and then, I’m afraid you need real tenacity, because you make mistakes, you get it wrong but if you’re driven by something that everyone is held accountable for, it sort of rallies you together in a way that is … that is why, I think, purpose driven companies are so important because it actually gives you something that you can really work with. So you ask what were the moments of truth! Well there were moments of truth because its all words until you actually do it but I can remember quite early on in the period … my first year was pretty tough, you know, we had three profit warnings and, you know, the market wasn’t too impressive, stock went down and I can remember there was a proposal because we were a bit down on revenue, to start to charge for a paper bill. Now we wanted people to go to electronic bills for years but remember, our customer base, we had a large elderly group who still used to pay their bills at the Post Office and take it along and the proposal came up to, you know, to charge for paper bills as a way to incentivise people to go … I remember having a meeting and everybody said “yeah, we’ve got to do this, we’re off, we’re not going to meet our plan numbers and this is a way of getting it” and I can remember saying “well hang on, what are our customers going to say” and there was sort of this moment of sort of … it doesn’t sound much now but was actually that sort of moment where everyone …
Jenelle: Sure, particularly if you’re feeling the pressure of that revenue gap as well and its kind of an easy way to bridge it.
David: Yeah exactly, you know, and we all sort of driven by results etc and anyway, we made the decision not to do it because it would impact the customers and, you know, it was so important. I was really blessed to have a great team and I’m really grateful for people I work with during that period because they were, you know, they really drove it. I mean, I learnt so much from them, I enjoyed their company and we, you know, we made mistakes but we sort of were bound together. So I think its those things that really drove change and it gives an energy and a drive and we tried new things, so the innovation point. You know we pushed the limits of it which was un-Telstra like. You know, sometimes the lawyers were a little bit concerned about where we went but that was okay. They came along with us and were a really great support. So yeah.
Jenelle: You’ve used the word “mistakes” a couple of times and I was going to say, you know, in your long career, driving so much change, whether it was Telstra or elsewhere, I’m sure there have been times when you didn’t get it right. What are … you know, are there times that you can recall when you didn’t get it right. What were those examples and what was that like for you as a leader, as you think about any one or two of those examples that come to mind, what was it like to be fronting that.
David: Yeah, well it’s a good question. I mean, look we all make lots of mistakes. I … and its not a regret thing. Its just you don’t always get it right and I think there’s a need for real objectivity and a willingness to say “hey look, I didn’t have all the facts, I made a wrong judgement” but yeah, I think when I look back mostly, I didn’t listen well, you know, I sort of went in with a preconception about the answer and people told me that I didn’t really listen.
Jenelle: So what's an example of where that was brought to life for you. Like, oh geez, if I’d listened I might have avoid this one [laugh].
David: I think at time I didn’t trust my gut as well. You know, you never have all the facts. I think people who work with me say sometimes I would take a bit long to get to the final decision and I think they’re probably right. I probably should trust my gut and I tended to just wait, maybe sometimes a bit long. Yeah, sometimes you know, sometimes you don’t have all the facts but you’ve sort of got this inkling that its not right and time is of the essence. So you’ve just got to back yourself and go for it. Its okay to be wrong, you know, I mean you try not to be wrong the majority of the time but it’s okay [laugh].
Jenelle: Well its okay … its good to learn from those moments, isn’t it.
David: As long as you do learn and you do need to be reflective on it. Sometimes you can give an issue or a, you know, something a lot of thought and you don’t communicate it clearly enough and …
Jenelle: Its clear in my mind!
David: … yeah, its clear in my mind and you realise you’ve got … you’ve really got to work at that communication and you’ve got to break it down into … into a logical and considered set of messages that people can consider, especially if its not a popular decision but I meant, there’s times I’ve got ahead of the team or … and it has just landed badly and whenever … whenever you communicate and people are unable to really understand it and buy in, inevitably it doesn’t work because you need ownership to go through that and also, create an environment where people can test and come back and say “hey look, that’s really good, but what about this?” If you’re too … I won’t use the word “dictorial” but if you’re too emphatic …
Jenelle: Yes!
David: … it doesn’t leave room for people to contribute to the ultimate solution and …
Jenelle: Creating space for them.
David: … creating space for people, yeah, and I think that’s a really really important trait of good leadership and if you get it wrong, you can really … well you go around the tree a few times rather than you’re getting to where you need to be. But its not easy, you know, I mean, as we all know, it’s a bit lonely sometimes when you’re trying to work through these things but I don’t think I ever felt … like there’s times when, you know you’ve got to really back yourself and …
Jenelle: But what do you do, I mean, its not the first time I’ve heard the word “lonely” being used by very senior people. What do you … like how do you … who do you surround yourself with, how do you find like minded souls to be able to go “oh my god, oh my god … or whatever”.
David: I just sort of let it all out [laugh]. Well its always lovely to have, you know, a good home environment that sort of … sort of keeps you very sane and things but in a business sense, I think its really important that there’s a degree of vulnerability and this essence of vulnerability is our humanness, is a critical element of that and I … over time I think when I first became a CEO, I mean, you go in with a lot of expectations and what you want to do cos you’ve sort of, you know, you sort of put yourself out there but the truth is you don’t need to know everything. You don’t need to be perfect but what you need to do is create this environment which is leadership where you get the best out of a great group of people and grow together and I know it sounds all a bit sort of, you know, that’s not good but, I mean its actually really hard but its really important, you know, and you’ve got to back yourself to, you know, you’ve got to say “hey look, this is what I think” and really go for. So … but I do think that that vulnerability and teams are of leaders or any sort of team, it takes work, you know, it takes work and you’ve really got to invest in each other and in the moment. Much of that answers your question but I enjoyed answering it [laugh].
Jenelle: [laugh] I enjoyed listening to it. Now you have a really diverse career spanning over 40 years.
David: Wow, is it that long! That’s a worry!
Jenelle: [laugh] its been a while. Is there an overarching purpose or a mission that’s has guided you to decide, you know, to choose what do you take on versus the opportunities that you let go. How does that work?
David: Well I can’t say that I’ve had always sort of those shining north star about where I want to be because to me, the journey has been as important in what I do. So really when I … I’ve got to believe in what I do. If I don’t believe in it, I really, you know … I mean I believe in technology for example. I really think technology makes a difference and so that’s been easy. I really see the foundational importance of good science and research in our society. So I need to have a bigger intent and then I’ve always felt that … I’ve always done whatever I did to the best of my ability and tried to enjoy the moment and at the same time, is never leaving anything the way I found it. I’ve always wanted to mould it, do something with it and so I think that’s been my driving but yeah, the how, the values and, you know, having a positive impact on the people and things around me but it hasn’t been “I’ve been here to change the world”. I mean that’s not … but …
Jenelle: An accidental by product then [laugh].
David: Well yeah, maybe. I mean sometimes I … maybe but it is, you know, someone once said to me early in my career “you know, stop thinking about what you are going to do next and just do what you’re doing really well now and the doors will open” and I think the other part of this is that as doors open, I think I step into them. So I mean there’s lots of points in my career, I mean I lived in Japan for six years, I you know, lived in the US for a while, did a lot of work in Europe and they were really challenging decisions for me and the family but we always felt, well let's step forward. If you don’t try, you’ll never know and so I think there’s this other aspect around career choices is that “do what you’re doing really well, doors are open and then walk through them”, you know, given them a go, what can go wrong. You can always come back, you know, and … within reason. So …
Jenelle: Why aren’t you scared of failure like some of us are? Where does that come from? That you know, hey you can make a mistake …
David: Give it a go! Oh look, I hate losing for the wrong reasons. I mean like there’s times when I’ve lost and I felt “well hey, you know, good luck to that other supplier or whoever” … cos obviously they were better. I don’t know. I don’t know what that would be Jenelle. I think there’s always a new day ahead, you know, there’s always something new and it doesn’t … I think the other critical thing in life is that my work doesn’t define me. Who I am as a person defines me. Now I now that what I do at work is defined by who I am but who I am, you know, when I don’t have a tie on or you know, I’m in my shorts and tee shirt, you know, wandering down the road, you know, I don’t need to be defined by everything around. I’m defined by who I am, good or bad, and I think that is a really important thing cos I’ve seen people who get caught up in all the, you know, paraphernalia and, you know, that’s not what’s life is about I don’t think.
Jenelle: I think the two … I mean for someone who’s had such a massive career and work history identity, that you would be forgiven for wrapping that up with your identity, you know, what you do rather than who you are. So I think that’s a really wonderful thing to be able to understand your contribution but to decouple your identity as being solely reliant on it.
David: Yeah. Yeah, well thank you for saying that. I mean, I really do strongly believe that because, you know, all that other stuff is fleeting, you know, and I think therefore keeping that perspective on yourself is really important and the other part of it is every day is a new day and you have a choice of whether you live with what happened yesterday or what you do today and I choose to live to what is going to happen today, not what happened yesterday, its those sorts of things that do drive you.
Jenelle: They are fantastic takeaways. Now you have, as I’ve said, you’ve had a pretty massive career in the corporate world, then you started taking roles on government policy and the public service. What was transition like? What was it like to see and address issues from those vantage points and were there any learnings for you that came out of that, perhaps you went in with certain expectations about the kind of people, the kinds of worlds. How did that multi-lens experience change?
David: Well I’m incredibly grateful for the opportunity I’ve had to work with the public service and on public policy. It wasn’t totally foreign to me because many of the … you know, the companies that I worked with like Telstra were very heavily regulated so I’d had very … you know, quite a lot of engagement with the political process and public policy but it was different going to work alongside and with, you know, the wonderful public service and we’re very … you know we’re very privileged and blessed to have such a strong public service, I mean all based on … of not perfect and look, I, like many people used to go to see Departments of government and I’d feel like they were, you know, slow moving, bureaucratic, risk averse, you know all the normal things that we say and yet, being … working with them and seeing the complexity of the issues they deal with and the nuancing of being able to build public policy in a political process and the role that produces, I mean I take my hat off. My respect for the public service went up enormously. So … and we need some of our best and brightest working public service because it is so important for our society. Now I’m not saying that we need to over index on, you know, I’m still a great advocate for, you know, industry, private sector, you know, I’m a sort of the social capitalist probably but you know, we need great people because these are complex issues you’re dealing with and they are … they take time to think through and they take time to implement whereas I had always been, you know, what's the problem, what are the options we’ve got, let's make a decision and move forward and I still think that’s important but in a public policy sense, you can easy make really big mistakes and you need to be very considered. So I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the public … working in the public service and on public policy and always working within the academic community because CSRO and we work with a lot of Universities, I just absolutely admire our academic community and of course, I’ve come out of industry and then I read the OECD reports that say “one of the challenges in Australia is that we’re not collaborative”. Now what they mean by “no collaborative” is we don’t get a lot of people moving from public sector to industry, industry to academia, academia into public service. So if you actually … I think they call them the triathlete now. So I do think, we as a country, we need more people who work across all three because you do see the world slightly differently and by having people who have worked across all three, I think we would get to better outcomes and a better appreciation. Many of the social issues and political, environmental issues, you know, are very challenging and we need our best and brightest there. So yeah, I’ve been really … really enjoyed my time working with those people and I hope to be able to do more of it in the future.
Jenelle: So just changing tack a little bit but staying on the theme of looking at something from another lens. You were appointed the Deputy Chair of the Federation Government’s national covid19 coordination commission, so the NSC advisory board, you know it was in 2020, it was all about supporting the government in navigating the challenges posed by the pandemic. Emotions would have been running high, economic challenges raised aplenty, health challenges raised aplenty. Massive expectations across a very broad stakeholder landscape. What was that like? How did you prioritise? I mean the word there was to coordinate but how did you do that? Where did you know how to do it at the start? Just too many people to please, too many things to do with that, how did it work?
David: I’m not sure we did very well on the coordination but anyway. Well look, firstly I do want to say I really applaud, you know, the Prime Minister and Prime Minister and Cabinet for … for actually reaching out to industry and saying “look, this is a crisis, we don’t really know all the answers, come in, help in any way you can” because really it was that simple and you know, we had a national crisis. Very early on, we really didn’t understand covid and how broad the impact would be and I think, you know, a real sense of togetherness about “hey we need everybody at the table”. Look, the way we approached it, we immediately knew there was sort of three stages here. One was this whole question about how we could respond. We were in crisis and the first six months, you know, trucks couldn’t get across borders, we couldn’t get food into some of the aboriginal communities, you know, ports were closing down and really it was more like firefighting. So you know, Paul Little, who knew the ports people and the trucking, he would just get on the phone and say “look, what’s your problem, what can we do to help?”. You know, we could talk to Allan Joyce, because we were at an industry, we just knew people. Whereas for the public service to do that, its just not their thing. Whereas for us, we could do that or you know, the Universities, you know, what was going to happen there or you know, what was going on in education. We could just connect things up. So the first three/six months was really firefighting, that’s what we did. But then very quickly, it went from crisis to how do we recover. So you know, decisions around vaccines, how to roll it out, you know, logistics etc. So how do we get people back to work and over that period, very slowly, we became one voice of many because really the system of the public service needs to kick in. So the first six months it was just all hands to the wheel, what do we need to do. Second six months it was more around working with and we were a voice of, you know, so they might have let's say Jobkeeper – we would ask our opinion on it but we didn’t make a decision. We said you know, how would this play out in small meeting business. So we were just one voice because it has to go through, you know, a whole process of Cabinet etc and then the last section was this whole sense of reform and, you know, could we use the crisis of covid into reforming parts of the industry and while we didn’t see the outcome of that but some of the advanced manufacturing work, some of the, you know, commercialisation of research initiatives, some of that sort of started there. I was only on it for a year and I think our effectiveness near the end wasn’t as impactful because really, you know, it meant really to appreciating the different roles of public service and politicians and cabinet versus industry and we couldn’t be privy to some things but we could put input. But you know, hey all credit to them, you know, whether we were good or not doesn’t really matter but the very fact that they were willing to say how can we work together, I thought was really great. Should do more of it really.
Jenelle: Any interestingly, I mean even just listening to you talk about those phases, part of the skill of this is identifying the different stages so a leadership role in crisis, a voice amongst many in recovery and an advocate for reform and you need to shift – right, so depending on whatever inputs. So that in itself is a skill to understand the order of the day to lead or respond to that order. Its an important takeaway. David, I think it would be really great to explore the topic of trust with you. I see you as a highly trusted individual across private sector and government landscapes and in fact in 2017, you were made an officer in the general division of the Order of Australia and that was ethical business leadership. So that has inherent in there, a thematic of trust. This is also now in a time where our society, I think, is becoming increasing distrustful. Its hard to escape the 24 hour news cycle, clickbait, constant social media churns, rapidly shifting consumer expectation, the rise of public sentiment which can … we’ve seen play out into a pile on culture or cancel cultures. How do you personally think about trust and particularly the intersection of technology and trust.
David: Yeah yeah, it’s a big topic this one now Jenelle.
Jenelle: [laugh]. It is, I know.
David: These big tech platforms sort of given a voice which has been so positive to individuals but also the misuse of information and, you know, even this term “fake news”. You know, fake news is a lie, you know, sometimes we, you know, we conjure things up and sort of make it sort of a new term and yet, you know, truth and trust go so closely together and a whole society is based on trust. You know, even now, I mean here I am doing a podcast with you and I trust what you’re going to do with it, you know, and if we ever get … allow this trust to be broken down, I think we’re in really serious place and I … I will go out a bit on a limb … I really … I’m really worried about this thing around trust to truth and then people say like “I know they don’t mean it this way” but they say “well my truth is this and your truth might be something different”. I mean truth by definition stands independent of who we are or my perspective. Truth is truth. Call it something else. Fine to call it a perspective. I use lots of different words but don’t use truth because truth is reality and if we don’t base ourselves on reality, we see what happens if people misrepresent lie/cheat and that just underpins everything. So in trust between people in an organisation or in society is the bedrock and one of the things, even … especially with Telstra, one of our values was trust each other to deliver. Trust each other to deliver because we’d always, you know, we’d always be “I’m okay, its that group over there, they never deliver”. It was always the blame culture rather than a default of going to trust and then holding people accountable as well and what I worry about is people are no longer accountable for what they say or do and I think that is really really important.
Jenelle: There so many hidden … I mean they’re shadowy. They’re anonymous. They …
David: Anonymous yeah and they hide, you know, and they’re not willing to be recognised for who they are and they hide behind all these things. So I think this is really really important and yeah, I know, I always get this quite wrong but is it Mark Twain who said that you know, “a lie will travel around the world twice while truth is still putting their boots on”. Is that … I’m not sure if its Mark Twain …
Jenelle: I’m not sure if its Mark Twain. I’m not sure of the quote but I like it!
David: You know, we don’t know who said it but they reality is that sometimes falsehoods or … we see it on social media, people are far more inclined to believe the … probably the unbelievable cos its sort of a bit different rather than seeking the truth because the truth is hard to get to and cos you do need to be discerning. You need to think through what's really happening and its like in business, you know, we all want to be seen in a positive light but actually I tell you as a board member or member of a team, what I look for is people who tell me the way it is and then we can get in and try to fix it but if people keep misrepresenting or putting a rosy picture on it, or misrepresenting, you can’t deal with it. So I think its really important and look, that’s what drives me and that’s why I like science and you know, science is about the discovery of the world around us. It’s about better understanding, about seeking reality, learning new things. That’s, you know, when I see the astronomers saying “David did you know that we just discovered three million new galaxies in the last three months” and you realise that a galaxy is a billion stars, I mean my mind just goes to … but the joy of that, seeking that truth of what really goes on, that’s what we should be engaged in because that improves society and a long and winding road to get to there but that’s [laugh] …
Jenelle: I know that’s a really important discussion. Now on the continued vein of important discussions, I don’t know whether I’d put this question in the D&I bucket or the personal change bucket. I suspect it could be both but in 2016, you were on a stage at a big event and you had quite a profound “ah-ha” moment on the D&I front. I wondered if you might be able to tell me about that experience.
David: Okay. Well actually I think I told the story in 2016. It goes back to 2018 on my birthday cos you can see how imprinted it is in my memory, in my psyche. I know an author called Jane Elliott who was a psychologist who wrote a book called, I think it was “Brown eyes …
Jenelle: Oh I think its a blue eyes/brown eyes experience …
David: … blue eyes/brown eyes and she came … IBM had bought her out to Australia and there was an auditorium of about three thousand people and she said “David, would you come up on stage, I just want to do a bit of an introduction”. I said oh that’s fine and I got up on stage and she was in the middle and there was a Torres Strait Island woman there as well. She said “oh David, how tall are you” and I said “I think I’m six foot one”. She said how does that make you feel? I said that’s the way I was born, you know, I don’t really think about it. She turned to the Torres Strait Islander and said “how tall are you?” “I’m five foot one”. How do you feel about that. Well actually, you know, it’s really hard, I go into a room and I can’t see everybody, sometimes I can’t look people in the eye and you know, so I find I’ve got to make compensations for that. That’s really great and then she went through about five different things about me being European, and then she said “you’re a man, David, how do you …”. I said “well you know, that’s the way I was born, you know, I do the best I can sort of thing” and then she turns to the Torres Strait Islander and says you know, “you’re a woman, how do you feel” and she said “well actually in my society its really … has constricted me. My recognition … “ and she went on and anyway I felt smaller and smaller and smaller on this stage and … because she was just … in my whole world view was determined by what I saw, not what someone else saw and I realised that my lack of awareness of other people’s views, that were very real and that I was totally insensitive and I mean it was an unconscious bias but it just made me realise in a very deep way, I can’t, you know, to be aware of someone else’s experience can ben completely different to mine and to be open and not assume too much …
Jenelle: And things that you take as a give-in are actually massive pain points for others, so …
David: Exactly exactly and in that, which is this whole question around listening more, not being … not sort of jumping in and of course it does relate to diversity and inclusion but it was far deeper than that and an appreciation of another person and an awareness of them and an ability to connect in a way and so it changed the way I turned up, not every day and in my leadership and also you take to another level of wanting to really appreciate differences. I mean the richness of having different views from around the table, different ways of looking at something, allows you to get to a far better outcome and so listening, appreciation, diversity, inclusion, I mean they all work together …
Jenelle: They do!
David: … and they can create something really quite unique that often in our very narrow view or my very narrow view of the world, you know, I become a better and wiser person by engaging in inclusive … so yeah that was an experience and then of course, the other part of the story is I did something … in my embarrassment on the stage, I touched Jane earlier and it was sort of one of those moments where … and she said “what gives you the right to touch me” and I …
Jenelle: Oh god! [laugh].
David: … [laugh] at that point I thought I should leave the stage, you know.
Jenelle: Did you just wait for a hole to swallow you up on that stage [laugh].
David: [laugh] that’s right, that’s right.
Jenelle: No, it’s a really powerful example and I’m sure there are a lot of people in the audience who would have had the same ah ha moment for themselves as they listened to you and watched that. So all of those examples that you’ve just talked about, I mean, what you said about diversity and it makes you a better leader and its better organisation, I mean, not to be dismissive of that but that is … it feels like a no brainer – right. Of course that would be case and I know that you were a founding member of the Male Champions of Change Initiative and there have been some excellent advancements. Certainly the kinds of conversations we’re having as business has evolved but I think its fair to say that we still don’t see the numbers of women in leadership at the kind of levels that we would expect or need to see or at the pace we want to be driving.
David: No.
Jenelle: Given all of that, why is that. What do you see as the biggest barriers to just fixing this?
David: Yeah yeah, I wish I had the answer. I mean one of the great things that has changed, no longer called Males Champions, its just called Champions of Change. I mean I had to stand by Liz Broderick who did it initially, was because, you know, it was about the men who were leaders stepping up to the challenge and I think that’s right. Look, the one thing that gives me hope and I mean one of the great opportunities that I’ve had is to work in Scandinavia a bit and I … and they’ve been on this journey a lot longer than we have and there’s something about the Scandinavian, you know, society but you know, there’s real … real equality there. I mean, the number of female/male, you know, whatever … it is far more balanced and it just … its just what life is, just like, you know, in my social life, I really, you know, I have friends, I don’t necessarily think about gender, I mean just recognise people for who they are, while appreciating there are differences you know, in a way, but not in terms of capability and look, I saw the journey they went through. They did have quotas by the way. They worked very hard on them and they went really hard at it cos I think there is sort of this, you need to get over the tipping point. We’re getting close, you know, we’re getting in the mid 30s but still got a long way to go. So look, I don’t have any magic answers except to just keep going, keep pushing and creating opportunities and we need over index on it and at times it feels a bit unnatural but sometimes that’s what is required, you’ve got to be a little bit irrational to get to rationality and so that’s my thinking. You know, we have so many wonderful people, we just need to give them opportunities, male/female and capability is not defined by gender. Again, I wish I had an answer but …
Jenelle: So turning to innovation. I have heard you described as the Godfather of Innovation in Australia. Don’t know if that makes you [laugh] … you’re shaking your head but you are … you are. You certainly have done an amazing job of fostering that at Telstra we’ve seen as an example. I know you have an aspiration to make Australia one of the top innovation centres in Asia and eventually the world. What do you think it would take for us to unleash that and realise our potential.
David: Well I definitely don’t think I’m the Godfather of innovation. I deeply deeply believe that innovation is so critical to any society, any business because it defines the human essence. I mean our creativity, our ability to innovate and change and redefine is what creates value. Value in relationships. Value for the environment. Value economically. You know, value across all the value chain and the one thing about innovation is that it can work at a personal level, it can work in an organisational level or it can work at a national level and a lot of people think that innovation is invention. Innovation is this constant pursuit of improvement, of doing things better and smarter, of redefining product, redefining process, doing things differently, you know, design thinking is so important. So that’s why I am such an advocate for it and its not just for the scientists and the physicians and the chemists. Its for all of us and in innovation, you create value and it keeps you challenged and going … moving forward. Also, I think it is … it is an element of cultural in innovation because its what you celebrate and, you know, we talked about failure before, but you want people to give it a go, to try new things, to push the boundaries and I think it has this really positive impact on society. Now I’ve heard innovation be related to venture capital and digital, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about you can innovate in your gardening, you can innovate in how you build, you can innovate in design. Its everything and its actually creating a culture and an environment that celebrates that and gives it a go and then supports it. Now, I do spend a lot of time, you know, in all those aspects but there is the innovation ecosystem that you define at a national level and there’s a wonderful concept called the Triple Helix that I think its mainly Switzerland, some of the Scandinavian countries, I think Belgium but its this concept of how … what we were talking about before of how we get public policy, education academia, schools, tertiary, TAFFs and industry, all intertwined, looking to create value in new and different ways and celebrating and I think that’s what the incredible opportunity is as we go forward. So that’s why I get excited and enthusiastic about it but it’s very much grounded in reality and its to do with our education system. Look at our health system in Australia. We have one of the some of the best clinicians, some of the best researchers and biotech, they’re incredibly innovative, you know, we’ve got people who are extracting new resins that are … you know, that are fixing cancer tumours. I mean that’s amazing so we need more of this. Now … and … but its at every level, in our building, in our land usage, in our you know, ability to grow great wine. That’s why I think its so important and it gets down into supply chains, manufacturing, searches yeah. So that’s why I’m a great advocate.
Jenelle: Last question for you before I go to the fast three.
David: Okay.
Jenelle: You are now applying your skills to saving the Great Barrier Reef. As if you haven’t got enough things to be doing. You’ve recently taken on the role as Chair of the Great Barrier Reef Foundation. What are your views on the role of technology to advance the sustainability agenda.
David: Oh look, technology is going to be a critical critical part of any solution. I mean the reason I’m working on the reef, is that its just so tragic to see the impact of climate change on such a wonderful wonderful environmental, you know, wonder and you know, what is it, 25% of all marine life begins from reefs and we lose the reef, you know, the impact is actually far more than just tourism. You know, a lot of the work we’re doing on the reef from addressing water quality, you know, trying to eradicate crown of thorns, of creating more heat tolerant coral because we’re not going to push back water temperatures is all very strong technology driven. You know, from use of submersibles, you know, autonomous vehicles and getting to crown of thorns through to detection of outbreaks, through to the work we’re doing on, you know, genetically and through just cross pollination of being able to develop corals that are more heat tolerant, it all gets very deep. We couldn’t do it without technology and we do a lot of the work just by virtualisation of the DNA strand and looking at what can happen. So so important but yeah, for anything, whether we’re talking around renewables, through to decarbonisation, sequestration. All of that is going to require a new generation of technology and I think that we’ve got a really important role to play there. I do believe that we’ve got to manage the transition carefully, you know, being innovative and use of technology and using our wonderful scientists, you know, just great opportunity, so yeah.
Jenelle: I can see all the combination of your skills and experience coming together, so I have … I’m gratified that you’re working on that, it’s fantastic.
David: Thank you. It’s a tough one. There’s a lot of players on the reef but anyway, we’re working on it.
The last three … three fast questions on change to finish the podcast
Jenelle: How about we wrap it up with the fast three questions. Don’t overthink this one.
David: Okay.
Jenelle: What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?
David: Okay, I’m reading a book called “Winning on purpose” by Fred Reichheld which is a really good book around how to really take a purpose driven organisation and then when I was down at ANU recently, they were celebrating their 50 years of competition, they gave me a book called “Deep time” which is a really interesting book around the concept of time and how the world has developed, I mean, I remember seeing an astronomer came and pointed to a little dot on the screen and said “this is the most incredible thing, that’s a galaxy being formed” and I said “oh that’s great, you know, that’s really good”. He said “oh you don’t get it, that’s galaxy that is being formed is ten billion light years, what you’re seeing is something that happened before earth existed”. At that point, I give up, you know.
Jenelle: Oh my god. My mind cannot wrap itself around that at all. What’s your super power. It can be something that’s relative to the world or a useless party trick.
David: I’m still looking for one [laugh]. I don’t know.
Jenelle: You’re so busy adding to the world you’ve got no useless party tricks.
David: Yeah I don’t think I’ve got any good party tricks. No, no, I’m afraid I’m a blank on that which probably says something about me, you know, anyway.
Jenelle: It says precisely nothing about you, that’s fine, you’re not superficial like I am [laugh], I’ve got lots of party tricks. If you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be?
David: Look, there’s lots of quotes in my life that I could relate to but just at the moment, you know, I would say “listen more than you could talk”. I think if we all listen to each other a bit more, we’d all be in a better place. So that’s it for today.
Jenelle: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now David, I can’t let you go without thanking you for your time today. I was very excited when you agreed to do this chat and I’ve loved the conversation. A few takeaways for me, well there’s many takeaways but some of the ones that really stand out in my mind, you know, clearly you have a conviction in technology and science and research but at no point have you ever departed from retaining humanity at the centre of that. Your points around not being afraid of vulnerability, not being afraid of mistake making. You know, I love the reminder that if you don’t try, you’d never know and I think that’s sort of really ties in with the innovation agenda as well. Walk through the door there’s always a new day, don’t be afraid of that. I love your advocacy for collaboration to drive better outcomes, for better value creation and your … whether its your educational background of just so diverse or your work background, that multiple-lens experience, industry academia, public service, private sector. I think its when you have, as you said, that kind of appreciation for context, for nuance, for skills. You are going to get that Triple Helix that you’re talking about and I love the conversation around identity and how you are defined by who you are and not what you do and keeping that perspective. It probably liberates you from, you know, some of the things that perhaps holds a lot of us back. I think your reminder to be discerning and to be truth seeking, whilst understanding your nuance and context. Don’t misrepresent or dress things up, face into the truth have been some of the takeaways and you know what, I think back to your very first comments about the influence of you Mum, you described her as affable, discerning and truth seeking and they would be exactly the words that I would use for you. So I don’t know how that makes you feel but its screams out to me that would be exactly how I would describe you, so I’m sure your Mum would be incredibly proud …
David: Oh thank you.
Jenelle: … but its been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today.
David: Oh well, thank you Jenelle, I’ve really enjoyed it too and you did it so well to summarise it. You did it really well, I could have done it in two minutes [laugh].
Jenelle: Thanks David.
David: No no, really good, thank you very much.
The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.
END OF TAPE RECORDING

Dr Andrew White
Senior Fellow In Management Practice At The Said Business School, University Of Oxford

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Season 5