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How music artists and labels can innovate for a better planet
In this episode of the Sustainability Matters podcast, the speakers discuss how music artists, labels, producers and fans can influence sustainability in music and society.
Related topics
In this episode of the Sustainability Matters podcast, host Bruno Sarda and guests dive into the intersection of sustainability and the music industry. Discussing the topic with Bruno are: Joel Makower, Chairman and Cofounder of the Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz) and the Strategy Director & Industry Council Chair of the Music Sustainability Alliance, and Olga LaBelle, Vice President and Head of Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) at Warner Music Group.
The speakers discuss the current state of sustainability in the music industry, innovative collaborations for environmental benefit, and how artists, labels, concert venues and fans can contribute to a more sustainable industry.
Key takeaways:
- Music has the power to unite people across the world with a shared purpose. Artists can inspire positive social change through their fans.
- There are many ways to encourage sustainable innovation across the value chain in the music industry, from tour trucks and heavy lifting equipment to vinyl records made from recycled plastic.
You can also listen to this podcast on Apple, Spotify and Libsyn.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Olga LaBelle
Music shapes our culture and awareness of what matters. We've seen that when artists take a stand on environmental issues, their fans notice, and they want to take a stand as well. Live events […] They bring people together. But […], music festivals produce, some of them, as much waste as a small town.Joel Makower
How does sustainability become cool in music rather than something that we have to make a sacrifice for? People are looking for heroes in business these days, […] to step up and say […] I know this isn't popular, but I believe this, and I want to speak out on this.Bruno Sarda
Hello and welcome to the EY Sustainability Matters podcast, our regular look at ESG and sustainability topics and how they impact businesses around the globe. I'm Bruno Sarda, EY Americas' Climate Change and Sustainability Services leader and your host for this series. Thanks for tuning in to our podcast. So today we dive deeper into the diverse industry of music and its intersection with sustainability.How do artists and labels, producers, and of course, the fans, influence sustainability in music and society? And what is the carbon footprint behind your favorite artists’ recent tours, or what are the key drivers for meaningful systemic change in and by the music industry? So, with me to discuss this and other insights are two fantastic professionals at the intersection of music and sustainability. We have Joel Makower, chairman and co-founder at the Trellis Group, formerly known as the GreenBiz Group, and a strategy director at the Music Sustainability Alliance.
The Alliance is a hub for the music industry professionals to learn, innovate, and collaborate to advance sustainability across their business. I actually had the pleasure of recently catching up with Joel at the GreenBiz Conference in Arizona. So, great to have you here on our show. And alongside Joel, I'm also thrilled to be joined by Olga LaBelle, Vice President and Head of ESG at the Warner Music Group, a global music entertainment company across recorded music, music publishing, and artist services. So welcome to both of you.
LaBelle
Thank you, Bruno. Great to be here.Makower
Thanks, Bruno. It was great to see you recently and great to be back on the show. Thanks.Sarda
So, Olga, maybe we'll start with you. You know, over the past few years, the music industry has been increasingly called to adopt sustainable practices. How do you think the industry's approach to sustainability has evolved? And what would you say is the current state?LaBelle
Great. Thanks, Bruno. So, I think it's a very exciting time to be working on sustainability in the music industry. It's a time of a lot of innovation and forging new ground, and we're seeing every day that our artists, fans, and employees are asking us for more sustainable practices. And companies like Warner are both responding and leading the charge.I'd say the industry sustainability efforts really came into focus with the signing of the Music Climate Pact in 2021 as part of COP26. With that pact, 14 music companies, including Warner Music Group, pledged to set climate targets and reduce their environmental footprints. And since then, many of us, including Warner, have set climate targets and gotten validation through the Science Based Targets Initiative and we've begun our path toward decarbonization.
We've seen a lot of great innovations coming out of the industry in the last few years, like Warner's work on sustainable vinyl format. But it's really extended even beyond that and now we're seeing that the recorded music industry is coming together with the broader music ecosystem to try to address challenges that no single company or even industry can solve on their own.
Challenges like, how can we make touring and live events more sustainable? That takes collaboration between artists, labels, production companies, logistics companies, venues, food, and concessions operators, and even fans. Or questions like, how can we better engage fans and listeners to make more sustainable choices? Can we use music to inspire change? So, I think this is a really dynamic and interesting time to be working on sustainability in music, as we are working toward our own commitments and also really looking across the ecosystem to make change.
Sarda
Thanks, Olga. That's a great context setting, I think. So maybe, Joel, I guess from your vantage point, you know, what do you see as the most pressing challenges or opportunities facing the music industry when it comes to sustainability? I mean, are these primarily environmental, social, or maybe a combination of both?Makower
Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll agree with Olga that this is an exciting time to be talking about this and exciting time in the music industry. I'll also say that the music industry is, Bruno, you and I have both been in the sustainable business world for a long, long time. It was about 10 or maybe 15 or more years behind, sort of the general industry and it's just getting going.In fact, one of the interesting things, and sort of fun things for me personally, having watched this business in general and sustainability for over 35 years, is to see the trajectory that the music industry is on. Look, the industry is not a great environmental evildoer. You know, the footprint is relatively small, although anyone who's been to a concert or a large-scale musical event may see the piles of waste or diesel power generators and may say, "Oh, we can do better than that," and we can.
But so much of it is, is really around, you know, Olga's looking at the recorded music side, I'm looking at a little bit more from the live music performance side. Although we both intersect into the other space. it's really a lot of it is the social permission for musicians and music industry in general to engage in sustainability-related issues, particularly in this moment.
There's a huge opportunity around the industry's ability to shape society's responses to the many crises that we're facing: climate crisis, biodiversity crisis, social equity crisis and more. But there's also some risks, and we can talk more about what those are. And I think it's really interesting to see sort of how those risks are manifesting in this particular moment.
Sarda
Yeah. No, I think that's such an important point, is to really understand, so who are the various actors and what are the levers? So maybe, Olga, I guess, in your view, what roles do the record labels, for example, play in driving the industry toward sustainability? Do you have maybe some concrete examples you could share of sustainability initiatives you know Warner Music is focused on, or how these efforts integrate into the broader company's strategy and what impact they are actually having then both on your business and the industry more broadly?LaBelle
Yes. So, I think about our role really as in four layers. The first is about getting our own house in order and reducing the emissions of our own operations. here at Warner, we've made a commitment to use 100% renewable energy across all of our offices and recording studios by 2030, and I think that sends a really important signal to our stakeholders, artists, songwriters, fans, employees and suppliers that we are serious and really deeply committed to sustainability.Then it's about extending to the supply chain. And I think in the recorded music industry, we have a lot of opportunities to improve sustainability with artist merch and physical audio, especially with vinyl. I'm very proud of the innovation that Warner is doing alongside our suppliers in the physical audio space in particular. We recently released an innovative format called the EcoRecord, which replaces the PVC (polyvinyl chloride) from a traditional vinyl format with a recycled post-consumer waste PET (polyethylene terephthalate).
So, we source material from water bottles and other plastic consumer waste and reduce the emissions in the manufacturing process by 80%. And what's exciting is that we've released the EcoRecord with some of our biggest artists like Coldplay and Ed Sheeran. And in fact, in Coldplay's case, they partnered with the nonprofit to source ocean bound plastic water bottles in Guatemala. So, every record is made from the equivalent of nine water bottles that otherwise would have been plastic waste in the ocean. So that's the second layer around our supply chain.
The third layer I think about is the broader music ecosystem and concerts and live events. Live events and festivals are incredible. They bring people together. They connect them to music and to their artists in really special ways. But they have an environmental impact, as Joel mentioned. For example, music festivals produce, some of them, as much waste as a small town. And we're seeing really everyone: fans, artists, venues, and promoters, start to think differently about ways to reduce that.
At Warner, we've partnered with MIT, LiveNation, Hope Solutions and our artist, Coldplay, to do an industry-first study on the footprint of concerts and live events in order to identify the biggest areas of impact. And our aim is really to create a playbook that everybody in the ecosystem can draw on to reduce their footprint, from artists to logistics managers, to venues, to fans.
And that's where I really think the fourth and final layer comes in, which is how do we use music as a platform to drive behavior change across society and with our fans more broadly? Music shapes our culture and awareness of what matters. It's an incredible platform to connect people across cultures and countries and to inspire them to take action.
We've seen that when artists take a stand on environmental issues, their fans notice, and they want to take a stand as well. And we try to, we try to support that too. We aim to inspire our listeners. Last Earth Day, we released a curated playlist of songs that are all about nature and the planet, hoping to inspire that sense of admiration and awe among listeners. And we donated the proceeds from that playlist to One Tree Planted and encouraged listeners to do the same.
Sarda
Yeah. That's great, Olga. Yeah, it's true. It's hard to talk about the history of social change without often recounting the musical movements that tend to accompany that. So, Joel, maybe I guess, you know, I said a couple of things about the Music Sustainability Alliance (MSA) earlier in the episode, but can you tell us more about it? The MSA and its role in driving kind of collaboration across the various stakeholders and the ecosystem, and what levers or drivers are available to really drive some of that change? And how are then the different players, the artists, the labels, the producers, the fans contributing to this shift and then the role again of the MSA to both support, facilitate, drive collaboration?Makower
Yeah. Thanks, Bruno. MSA, in general, is working as an industry consortium out of Los Angeles, working to reduce the negative environmental impacts of, primarily, live music performance and to grow the positive impact. So how do you have, to Olga's point, how do you have a zero waste renewably powered event or festival where fans may be, you know, traveling on transit, or carpooling, and the merchandise that is being sold, the merch is perhaps sustainably created or minimal packaging and on and on? So my role there is, my title is Director of Strategy, I do a number of things, including uh, chairing industry council that Olga sits on, very pleased to be able to work with her. So, we cross over to recorded music as well. But our primary focus is on the live music.You mentioned artists and labels and producers and fans, one of the stakeholders or players you didn't mention are venues. Some of them are arenas and stadiums that have sporting events and lots of other things going on. And of course, there's these fields that some of which are, you know, small cities that are built and then disappear for a festival once a year or so. They play a critical role.
And part of it is how do you engage all of these players? Because in so many things, as you know well, in sustainable business, you know, it's the ecosystem. Everybody has to play well together. So how do you bring folks together to do these things? And there's a lot of perverse incentives. You know, you go to a festival or a concert or a stadium and, you know, you're buying a bottle of water because you're not allowed to bring any inside.
You're paying for parking and there's no incentives for carpooling. If you were to give free parking to carpoolers, for example, you'd be taking money out of the venue's pocket. They're getting, you know, some significant chunk of change for letting you park your car there and so on. So, part of it is how do you identify those barriers? How do you create the collective action? One of the interesting pieces of this and you sort of alluded to it, Bruno, by talking about the role of music in social change over the years, is how this moment is kind of different in that musicians who, you know, I'm of a certain age where musicians were at the vanguard of social change, talking about racism and anti-war and pollution and lots of different issues.
And we're at a point now where, largely due to social media, I believe, musicians are afraid to bring up some of these issues of being criticized, called out, or canceled. And I think that's an interesting dynamic. And so how do we build a constituency for them and their teams? Because they all have vast teams to engage more actively and More, perhaps, fearlessly on some of these issues? That's another role that MSA is trying to play in the field.
Sarda
Well, actually, let's maybe just dive into that because I think across industries, you know, we see that part of what drives sustainability is what we sometimes call the business case or, you know, really responding to, business imperatives or customer demands. So maybe, Olga, if we can, let's talk about the role of demand in shaping industry practices. And of course, you constitute demand for your suppliers.You know, your downstream customer base drives demand for what Warner ultimately will offer going forward. So how can growing expectations and demand for sustainability from maybe the broader audience accelerate change in the industry? And, for example, are you seeing fans asking, or maybe even willing to pay more for sustainable experiences or products?
LaBelle
Yeah. So, we are an artist-first company, which means everything that we do is really in service of our artists and songwriters. Demand from artists is definitely a big driver of what we do and how we do it. A lot of our job is to make sure that we have the right supply of products and to drive innovation for our artists.For example, sustainable physical audio formats, so our artists can make more sustainable choices and have those options available to them. But we also do see it as our job to help educate artists about the impacts and tradeoffs of different types of products, and different choices that they make. For example, choosing to ship product via sea freight instead of air freight, which obviously takes much longer but has a much lower carbon footprint.
We also realize and recognize that sustainability means very different things to different people. So, some artists care about the climate impact of their products, others care about the materials themselves and want to make sure they're part of the circular economy.
And so, we really, we do meet artists where they are in order to meet the specific demands that they have. It's our job to meet that artist demand and provide options and educate them. And on the fan side, I think yes, we are definitely seeing that fans are demanding more climate action from artists. And a couple of stats here: research from the University of Glasgow shows that 82% of music fans are extremely concerned about climate change.
And in another recent study by Planet Reimagined, they found 70% of fans said that they support artists to use their platforms to address social change, and more than half believe artists should speak out about this critical issue. This has translated really into a huge shift in audience expectation toward environmentally responsible practices at live events and into the expectations of what they buy from artists like merch and vinyl.
Makower
Can I jump in on that question, Bruno? I've seen those stats, and I agree. But I also think, and not to be more the realist than trying to be a downer here, is that if half of artists should be engaging on these issues, that means half think they shouldn't or aren't sure. And I think that's where the problem comes in, is we know all too well in this world right now that a small group of folks raising a big stink on social or on some other place can really move, not move opinion, but move the leaders and to get them to get into what we now call greenhushing, as opposed to just wanting to keep their head down on this stuff.But I also want to talk about something else you said, Bruno, that people are paying more for some of these green, I'm not sure what you're referring to, are there other products or services or anything in there? I think that mindset has been the challenge for the sustainability movement in general. People don't want to pay extra except for a very, very small sliver of consumers who, first of all, can afford to and, second of all, believe that they have an ability to create change through their purchases, which I believe they do.
And the opportunity here is, how do we make this stuff not only cost neutral, but maybe even better? I mean, I've long said across sustainability in general, and I've come into this through the consumer piece years ago, that sustainability sells when sustainability equals better. Now better can be any number of things. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate, higher quality, longer lasting, cooler for my image, whatever it is, locally sourced, something.
So how does this stuff become better and how do we get away from: this needs to cost more? How does sustainability become cool in music rather than something that we have to make a sacrifice for? I think that's the big opportunity and challenge that the industry is facing… because, yeah, I mean, the younger generation, the people who go, I would imagine the majority of music events, or the majority of streaming or record buying, are the ones who are, you know, likely most concerned about these issues, or certainly the ones that are going to ultimately face the brunt of the climate crisis and biodiversity crisis.
So, they need to be engaged, and they want to be engaged, but they don't, but only to a point. And I think finding that secret sauce is both a challenge and the opportunity for how do we make this better, how does make this cooler, how do we make this an addition and not a subtraction?
Sarda
These are really important, big questions. So, maybe, Olga, turning back to you, thinking about the path forward and looking ahead beyond all the things we've already talked about that are either in motion or at least in sight with still progress to be made.Where do you think the industry goes next? You know, what's next for the industry on its path to sustainability, and what are maybe some key areas that you think either labels, artists, you know, music industry professionals should prioritize at this moment in time and, over the near- or mid-term to drive, you know, meaningful progress, but also to drive lasting impact?
LaBelle
So, for the recorded music industry, I think there's three big things. One is we need to walk the walk and really deliver on our own climate targets, both in our own operations and supply chain. As Joel mentioned, we are early days in our decarbonization plans. And I think being on that path, we really need to continue that journey and deliver on our commitments. The next piece is, I think we need to continue to mobilize the ecosystem.As we've seen, this is really critical for many of our artists that want to reduce the carbon footprint of their tours. And it takes really, it takes a village. It takes a lot of actors across industries to work together to achieve those ambitious sustainability goals and to drive meaningful reductions. And then, I think the really exciting thing is, how do we continue to use music to amplify causes that our artists and fans really care about? And how do we change the dialogue with fans around climate change and their role and their involvement in the solution?
Sarda
Thanks for that, Olga. So, Joel, maybe for you, as we, kind of, wrap up this discussion, you know, as you mentioned, you've been in the broader space of sustainability and business, business of sustainability for a few decades, well beyond the music industry. What have you maybe seen work elsewhere? What key lessons or strategies do you think the music industry can adopt, as it’s in kind-of accelerated catch-up mode to advance its own sustainable transformation?Makower
Well, I think there's a lot that the industry can learn from the work that you've done, Bruno, and a lot of people have done over the past few decades. And we've forged a path which the music industry can follow. It'll be a lot shorter learning curve than it has been for other industries. So much of this, when you boil it down, is really about risk, financial risk, reputational risk, a right to operate risk, technology, a number of other kinds of risks. And of course, in these days we're seeing the risk of extreme weather, heat, torrential rain, and wildfire that already is disrupting the live music industry: canceling festivals, causing problems.We saw, heat stroke, I think, at some festival in South America. And so, thinking about risk is an important piece of this that then drives a lot of change. But the flip side of risk is opportunity, that there is a lot of opportunity to be innovative, to create new kinds of technologies, new ways for fans to show up. And so much of this also is things that the fans will never see, just as true of any industry. Again, Bruno, as you know well, so much of this is environmental issues that need to be addressed are behind the scenes.
In the music industry, it's logistics. If you've got live music, if you've got a major act touring North America, say, they may have multiple sets, that they're hopscotching around the country because it takes two or three days to build and a day to strike, and so they need to move to the next city two days later. So, they have maybe three sets.
There could be dozens, scores, maybe even 100 or more tractor trailers for that one tour. So how do you create efficiencies around that? So much of what happens at an event is, again, behind the scenes that the music fan attendee never sees around waste, around food prep, around a number of other things, food waste, that can be addressed.
But at the end of the day, Olga mentioned that it takes a village. And yes, it absolutely does. But it also takes courage. And I think that's something we see lacking across business in general. And I alluded to this with the artists themselves that may be reticent to speak up on some of these issues for fear of any number of things.
People, and I say this in general, not just fans, music fans, people are looking for heroes in business these days, looking for companies, for leaders, for individuals and artists to step up and say, you know what, I know this isn't popular, but I believe this and I want to speak out on this. There are a few, and we unfortunately can probably name most of them on one hand. Olga's mentioned a couple of them, and they keep coming up.
Just as in sustainable business, they're the same companies people point to as the leaders. And it's like, yeah, but who else? And so, I think there's an opportunity here to speak up. But it does take courage. And I'm talking across the political spectrum, particularly with environmental issues, whether you're in the far left activists or the far right, the anti-woke is really good at saying, "Yes, but." It's great you're doing what you just said you're doing, but what about this? What about her plane that she flies around the world in? What about the waste that's creating, you know? And so, it takes courage to get beyond that and say: I know we're not perfect.
We're on a journey. We are doing our best. And we need your help and to engage and to really bring people along, that's, I think, something we see across the business world in general, this need for courage and this need to step up and this need to bring people along. But I think it's really true in the music industry.
Sarda
Well, thanks for those, both inspiring, and grounding words. Thank you, Olga. Thank you, Joel. You know, such an insightful conversation. We could obviously go on and on, but for the sake of our listeners, maybe we'll bring this to a close. But just, you know, again, I think throughout history, music has played such a key role in both, you know, social transformations and building awareness, has this ability, unlike really any others, to shape culture, I think, as you said, Olga.And I think today, you know, music is more ubiquitous and available and portable than ever, right? We all have devices in our hands or in our pockets at any time that has almost access to the entire music library throughout history. And, how to tap into that. What you said about walking the walk, nailing the basics, I think really echoes what you just said, Joel, about, you know, let's not get distracted by potential operational missteps and really keep, everybody focused on the things that will matter.
Because there are, in fact, true risks for not addressing this: both the physical and transition risks, and hopefully the rewards for getting this right for both for artists, for labels, for companies, will outweigh the risks that they may see in engaging. And, you know, as we say in various industries, you know, there's safety in numbers, right? So being part of an ecosystem that's trying to move the needle and pitching a big tent to make it as inclusive as possible will both help go faster. And I think the Music Sustainability Alliance for sure can play that role.
So, again, thank you both. As I said at the beginning of the episode, this is the Sustainability Matters podcast. You can find all past episodes of the show on ey.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to subscribe. Ratings, reviews, comments are always welcome, and we invite you to listen to previous episodes, like the episode dedicated to the exciting work of the EY New Economy Research Unit, or our most recent one, where we discuss how professionals across functions can actually implement sustainability practices in their daily jobs.
So, you can also visit ey.com to find a wide range of related and interesting articles that will help put these bigger topics in the context of your business priorities. I look forward to welcoming you again on the next episode of Sustainability Matters. My name is Bruno Sarda, you can find me on LinkedIn and feel free to connect with me there. Thanks so much for listening.